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Author: Subject: Tetramine copper perchlorate help?
MineMan
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[*] posted on 8-9-2016 at 10:02


Wow, Thank you PH Z!!!:o That must have taken you an hour to type!

Yes, several of those rules I had not learned... I will be mulling over this today and tomorrow, this is great!

Thank you!:D;)
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ttrzllvr
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[*] posted on 12-9-2016 at 03:16


You are wasting the Cu perchlorate
http://tetrazolelover.at.ua/Unsorted/Cu_glycinate_perchlorat...
http://tetrazolelover.at.ua/Unsorted/Cu_Glycinate_Perchlorat...
Some info in English:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwUqYtQzAt4

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kratomiter
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[*] posted on 12-9-2016 at 06:35


Quote: Originally posted by ttrzllvr  
You are wasting the Cu perchlorate
http://tetrazolelover.at.ua/Unsorted/Cu_glycinate_perchlorat...
http://tetrazolelover.at.ua/Unsorted/Cu_Glycinate_Perchlorat...
Some info in English:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwUqYtQzAt4



Very interesting! Any English source to perform that synthesis?
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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[*] posted on 12-9-2016 at 11:23
CGP and CGC


Copper Glycinate perchlorate and chlorate? Hmm... Interesting. If will be results from tests for use as detonators for classic secondary charges , it will be much more interesting. If it for this compounds will be requires only thin solid cover, for example hardened paper, or plastic tube, will be it better than system Berta in relatively thick copper. However still I am not see some one hole, or the holes in steel 2 mm thick. Or even 3 mm. I am waiting on results. I am curious. Here bottom:
Hole from sytem Berta - fuse type with Copper hexamine perchlorate. Dr...:cool:

Berta Bickford.jpg - 158kB

[Edited on 12-9-2016 by Laboratory of Liptakov]




Safety explosive Alfred Nobel 1867. Safety ecologic detonator Dr. Liptakov 2015, inventor of CHP
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ttrzllvr
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[*] posted on 12-9-2016 at 21:43


Quote: Originally posted by kratomiter  
Quote: Originally posted by ttrzllvr  
You are wasting the Cu perchlorate
http://tetrazolelover.at.ua/Unsorted/Cu_glycinate_perchlorat...
http://tetrazolelover.at.ua/Unsorted/Cu_Glycinate_Perchlorat...
Some info in English:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwUqYtQzAt4



Very interesting! Any English source to perform that synthesis?

There's probably just one source of impractical synthesis(if you want to wait a week for some crystals :))
http://tetrazolelover.at.ua/Unsorted/Copper_gly-perchlorate_...
The Boussingault's mixed Cu(II) glycinate nitrate was my inspiration.
My method is to prepare Cu(II) glycinate first and react it with hot solution of copper perchlorate or chlorate and evaporate the solution on water bath to dryness. Yield is 100%.
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[*] posted on 12-9-2016 at 22:12


Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Copper Glycinate perchlorate and chlorate? Hmm... Interesting. If will be results from tests for use as detonators for classic secondary charges , it will be much more interesting. If it for this compounds will be requires only thin solid cover, for example hardened paper, or plastic tube, will be it better than system Berta in relatively thick copper. However still I am not see some one hole, or the holes in steel 2 mm thick. Or even 3 mm. I am waiting on results. I am curious. Here bottom:
Hole from sytem Berta - fuse type with Copper hexamine perchlorate. Dr...:cool:


[Edited on 12-9-2016 by Laboratory of Liptakov]


I have different methods and goals. My primary goals is STABILITY (in the natural environment of course, I'm not interested in some childish laboratory or urban conditions), YIELD (wasting precious perchlorates to unstable and low yield compounds kilometers and kilometers from the "civilization"? No, thanks), AVAILABILITY - "innocent" dietary supplements will be still available (or a homemade gelatine). But of course I'll do other tests I'm interested in.

[Edited on 13-9-2016 by ttrzllvr]

[Edited on 13-9-2016 by ttrzllvr]

[Edited on 13-9-2016 by ttrzllvr]
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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[*] posted on 13-9-2016 at 01:21


Hmmm... Stability, Yield and Availability are only partially goals. Main goals should be some better. Plastic explosive or the detonator. Or both. Making prepare from CGP or CGC of course. Dr.



Safety explosive Alfred Nobel 1867. Safety ecologic detonator Dr. Liptakov 2015, inventor of CHP
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[*] posted on 13-9-2016 at 05:16


I'll do some tests with cardboard and/or plastic tubes. Brass cases are so damn unpractical and potentially dangerous especially when filled with a compound from unknown territory.

[Edited on 13-9-2016 by ttrzllvr]
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[*] posted on 13-9-2016 at 05:22


Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Main goals should be some better. Plastic explosive or the detonator.

A (relatively) safe and stable detonator, yes. And it doesn't need to be hyperpowerful. But the plastic explosive??? As the main goal? Then I'm from another planet :D
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MineMan
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[*] posted on 13-9-2016 at 05:49


Ok. We look forward to the results.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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[*] posted on 13-9-2016 at 07:18


Ok. We look forward to the results.



Safety explosive Alfred Nobel 1867. Safety ecologic detonator Dr. Liptakov 2015, inventor of CHP
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[*] posted on 16-9-2016 at 06:56


Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Hmmm... Stability, Yield and Availability are only partially goals. Main goals should be some better. Plastic explosive or the detonator. Or both. Making prepare from CGP or CGC of course. Dr.


Did you prepare a sample already? It is an interesting compound. I do not say your invention has no place on earth (Jára C. by tě pochválil), but some people want stability (also I'm radically not interested in commonly known energetic materials :) ).
Since the glycinate-chlorate is my invention, I focus primarily on it now. It is a challenge for me to develop a practically usable cupric chlorate based energetic material (ok, HATE me!) which is stable, nonexotic and cheap (and almost insensitive too). The ammine complexes are on the road of suiciders, so I focused on double salts. After a few years of research and making tests (I prepared a bunch of basic cupric chlorate or perchlorate energetic salts but I wanted a simple, non-hydroxy salt) I found the right compound maybe (HATE me twice!). If someone interested, here are some photos of an another test, 0,15g of CuGLYClO3.xH2O/0,15g PETN in a plastic tube
http://tetrazolelover.at.ua/CU_glycinate_chlorate_plastic_tu...
http://tetrazolelover.at.ua/Unsorted/CUGLYClO3_0.15_PETN_0.1...
Ignited by a black powder fuse. I guess the chlorate is a quite efficient obscure primary. I don't know the minimum initiating charge for PETN yet. But do not experiment with it! Still needs to be tested. Tests of perchlorate in plastic or paper tubes later. Then I'll make a new thread here (or someone else)...or not.
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[*] posted on 16-9-2016 at 12:22


Other picture with 0,15 PETN ,.......It looks good!.........:cool:..Dr.
Glycine is available?

[Edited on 16-9-2016 by Laboratory of Liptakov]




Safety explosive Alfred Nobel 1867. Safety ecologic detonator Dr. Liptakov 2015, inventor of CHP
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[*] posted on 16-9-2016 at 13:00


I found maybe the cheapest (?) glycine in Europe
http://4fitness.cz/vyhodna-baleni-a-naplne-proteinu/lglycin-...

If someone knows any cheaper source, let us know please.
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[*] posted on 17-9-2016 at 07:43
Glycine


Whow? ... Very cheap.. Cheaper than anything others. Cheaper than coffee. The big attempts waiting on everybody. ...:cool:..Dr.



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PHILOU Zrealone
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[*] posted on 17-9-2016 at 16:21


Beware to the stability of Cu(ClO3)2...
I have searched for infos about it and found very little.

Why did I searched?
I did inserted some Cu powder or Cu salts into KClO3/S/C mixes to get green-blue colour during burning but the mixes strongly released chlorine smell while the original chlorate black powder was stable for ages (with unsoluble carbonate or hydroxyde as acid scavenger) and smell-less...since the only added parameter was copper I suspected the crossed salt Cu(ClO3)2 to be potential cause of troubles...




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[*] posted on 17-9-2016 at 21:58


Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Beware to the stability of Cu(ClO3)2...


I know. I meant the Gly-chlorate as a stabler and less sensitive replacement for TACC or as a "worst case" primary instead of organic peroxides. Of course, it is far from the ideal primary and no one should store it too long and in large quantities. I'm still testing it's stability. I prepared a few larger crystals to see possible changes easier. It has some smell, but the glycine I used was smelly too, even other chemicals have some... I must wait. I know the Gly-chlorate has no future, but the Gly-perchlorate seems to be very promising.
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[*] posted on 19-9-2016 at 02:23


Quote: Originally posted by ttrzllvr  
Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Beware to the stability of Cu(ClO3)2...


I know. I meant the Gly-chlorate as a stabler and less sensitive replacement for TACC or as a "worst case" primary instead of organic peroxides. Of course, it is far from the ideal primary and no one should store it too long and in large quantities. I'm still testing it's stability. I prepared a few larger crystals to see possible changes easier. It has some smell, but the glycine I used was smelly too, even other chemicals have some... I must wait. I know the Gly-chlorate has no future, but the Gly-perchlorate seems to be very promising.

Amine perchlorates are:
-denser
-storage stabler
-less impact/shock and friction sensitive
-more powerful (if OB below or equal to 0)
-display higher VOD
than amine chlorate

But amine chlorate are more prompt to D2D than amine perchlorates and as such they must be closer to primaries.

Here you have several troubles:
1°) Cu(ClO3)2 stability concern..unknown behaviour?
2°) unknown stability of an organic ligand towards oxydoredox onto a catalytic metal core...this increases the sensitivity to heat/shock/friction ... but maybe also reduces the average life-time by lowering the activation energy necessary to induce decomposition?
3°) Unknown stability of amine chlorate...does it auto-oxydo-redox-ise to nitroso (-N=O) and chlorine oxydes (ClxOy) or amine dichlorides (-NCl2) upon time?
This is observed with NH4ClO3...what produces NCl3!

So first study ;):P:):
-Storage stability
-Density of crystal and bulk
-Exact composition/formula
-Impact sensitivity
-Heat sensitivity (T° deflagration/detonation)
-DSC curve
-Initiating ability of known HE vs other common primaries
-Brisance (via sand crushing)
-VOD (via test plates and comparison with common HE) or Dautriche's or oscilloscope.

Each amino ligand is specific so must be done for each new compound although for certain compounds one may expect related properties owing to parenthood...like for example CH3-NH2 and H2N-CH2-CH2-NH2
--> Cu(H2N-CH3)4(ClO3)2
--> Cu(H2N-CH2-CH2-NH2)2(ClO3)2
what would be equal to Cu(H2N-CH2-)4(ClO3)2 and thus very close to the first one.




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

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[*] posted on 19-9-2016 at 03:01


It is similarly as for copper hexamine perchlorate. I mean. Hexamine is classic organic compound? Thanks, Philou..Dr..:cool:



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[*] posted on 19-9-2016 at 09:02


Glycine forms an adduct 1:2 with ammonium nitrate as does hexamine, and both may also form an adduct 1:2 with ammonium perchlorate.

The weight proportion for glycine and NH4ClO4 1:2 molar would be 1 gram / 3.13 gram

An interesting experiment would be to mix glycine and NH4ClO4 as a slurry wet with enough water to allow long stirring at mild temperature, and then evaporate at mild temperature the water. If there is an adduct of glycine and NH4ClO4 it could have interesting energetic properties.

See US4746380 for the glycine adduct with NH4NO3

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=29&...

The adduct for hexamine and NH4NO3 is described in US3166452

Glycine forms an adduct with Strontium Perchlorate which is useful as a red flare composition.

It would be no surprise if that adduct is also detonable.

See US3296045 attached

Attachment: US3296045 Tris-glycine Strontium Perchlorate.pdf (295kB)
This file has been downloaded 572 times

[Edited on 9/19/2016 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 19-9-2016 at 12:15


Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  

Amine perchlorates are:
-denser
-storage stabler
-less impact/shock and friction sensitive
-more powerful (if OB below or equal to 0)
-display higher VOD
than amine chlorate

But amine chlorate are more prompt to D2D than amine perchlorates and as such they must be closer to primaries.

Here you have several troubles:
1°) Cu(ClO3)2 stability concern..unknown behaviour?
2°) unknown stability of an organic ligand towards oxydoredox onto a catalytic metal core...this increases the sensitivity to heat/shock/friction ... but maybe also reduces the average life-time by lowering the activation energy necessary to induce decomposition?
3°) Unknown stability of amine chlorate...does it auto-oxydo-redox-ise to nitroso (-N=O) and chlorine oxydes (ClxOy) or amine dichlorides (-NCl2) upon time?
This is observed with NH4ClO3...what produces NCl3!

So first study ;):P:):
-Storage stability
-Density of crystal and bulk
-Exact composition/formula
-Impact sensitivity
-Heat sensitivity (T° deflagration/detonation)
-DSC curve
-Initiating ability of known HE vs other common primaries
-Brisance (via sand crushing)
-VOD (via test plates and comparison with common HE) or Dautriche's or oscilloscope.

Each amino ligand is specific so must be done for each new compound although for certain compounds one may expect related properties owing to parenthood...like for example CH3-NH2 and H2N-CH2-CH2-NH2
--> Cu(H2N-CH3)4(ClO3)2
--> Cu(H2N-CH2-CH2-NH2)2(ClO3)2
what would be equal to Cu(H2N-CH2-)4(ClO3)2 and thus very close to the first one.

These are well known facts. But thanks anyway :). Already for a couple of years the philosophy behind my interest in some energetic materials is other than scientific, so personally I do not need to know everything about the compound. Stability (alone, in the presence of metals, natural plant or animal organic matter, human sweat and blood, soil, some minerals, secondary explosives or other pyrotechnic compounds), friction sensitivity (on metals, hard soil, stones, wood, textile materials, leather...) and initiating ability (from PETN to some less sensitive AN formulations) is what I need to know.
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[*] posted on 24-9-2016 at 06:23


Ok, other tests done with the Cu GLY-perchlorate. If someone interested (you know where to find it). No doubt, the compound has a future.



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[*] posted on 25-9-2016 at 02:01


Quote: Originally posted by ttrzllvr  
Ok, other tests done with the Cu GLY-perchlorate. If someone interested (you know where to find it). No doubt, the compound has a future.

I have tried to find it onto your website but it is not easy...:( can you point me out the right direction where to look for?




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[*] posted on 25-9-2016 at 21:26


Some photos of preliminary tests here
http://tetrazolelover.at.ua/index/energeticke_zluceniny_kyse...
Be careful with the Cu GLY-perchlorate too, seems it is able to detonate from black powder fuse even in paper tubes.




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[*] posted on 27-9-2016 at 03:03


I recommend making mix PETN + Cu-Gly ClO4 (monohydrate) 1:1 behind use acetone and preparation the agglomerate 2x2 mm. And filling to plast or paper tube with cavity 6 - 8 mm. Should by detonate. Similarly as method on your pages. High pressed 0,25 g for output segmet. It is same as in system Berta. And 0,25g with low density about 50% crystaline. It should be brizant on target. However the plate 0,4 mm is very thin for measurement of detonators. If working this , must be in plate 2 mm thickness simply pure the hole. Minimal 4 mm of diameter. (from 0,25g brizant /mix) From detonator with cavity 6 mm. Dr.

[Edited on 27-9-2016 by Laboratory of Liptakov]




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