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Sauron
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@neutrino, considering that recently a senior forum staffer (super admin) posted the PW to both References and Whimsy in the open, and neither has
been changed since then -- it hardly seems like the most secure idea to me.
Anyway I am not sure if secrecy is a good idea. The Adones (Lorenzo's parents) sponsored an international conference on ALD and published their paper
of the biochemistry of the disease. So, this entire idea if it is to get anywhere needs to be carefully considered from all angles. Maybe it's
something that deserves to be in Whimsy after all, but not for secrecy. Maybe it is just whimsical.
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Sauron
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@Ozone and @gil, would you look into the effects of overuse of Lindane cream on a suspected scabies infestation in pediatric patients?
This stuff is not very benign, at all. But it is the specific ectoparisiticide. It is to be used once, and if condition persists once again after a
specified period. Some of the images I saw were on webbing between fingrs, typical sites for scabies activity. I am just wondering whether some
sufferers might have applied Lindane cream too often/too heavily and/or some children might have been sensitized, and this could be part of the
"syndrome" particularly if dermatologists invariably intially diagnosed scabies and dispensed Lindane topically as a matter of routine.
See what you think. Examine particularly from the chloracne angle.
[Edited on 18-1-2007 by Sauron]
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Sauron
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Okay here's my data dump so far:
1. Lindane is still a commonly prescribed pediculicide as ointment and shamposs for head lice, crab lice (public lice) and human scabies.
2. It is a suspected carcinogen and has been banned in California, banned in US for head lice (but not scabies) and banned in 52 countries.
3. It is still unfortunately on approved lists of Mericare/Medicaid and many state systems in US and thus, likely to be prescribed to families on
welfare who are precisely the socioeconomic level most likely to need treatment for scabies. (the poor.)
4. Due to the manner in which is is packeged in 2 oz (70ml) quantities it is believe that children, especially and indeed all those under 50 Kg weight
and the elederly and immuno compromised people as well as people on certain medications or with seizure disorders are likely to have an increased body
burder from Lindane and be subject to its toxic effects, including neurotoxicity.
5. Lindane has not been produced in the US since the mid 1970s.
6. There are ongoing state, national and global efforts to eliminate Lindane use.
7. Chemically Lindane is 99% gamma hexachlorocyclohexane (g-HCH) or gamma-benzene hexachloride (g-BHC).
8. It is the least effective of four major pediculicides and the others are (i.e., 1% permethrin, 0.3% pyrethrin, and 0.5% malathion. Note: none of
these is like a walk in the park with your best girl. Malathion is an organophosphorus inhibitor of AChE (in other words a first cousin of nerve
gases.)
In summary, I would like to see a correlation between what pediculicide was prescribed to the 8000+ households claimed to be affected with
Morgellon's. Age of patients. Immunological status. Other concurrent medications.
Lindane looks like a likely participant so let's confirm or eliminate its role.
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Sauron
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HALT!
Before wasting any more time and energy on this BULLSHIT please everyone have a look at the following website:
http://morgellonswatch.com/2006/10/29/morgellons-and-dermato...
In short the psychiatric and dermatologic professionals regard this as a DOP manifestation (Delusions of Persecution).
@gil, why do you have us chasing neurotic fantasies?
They say the "fibers" are environmental in origin.
What we have is media hype, internet hype, and no substance at ALL.
Next case please.
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Ozone
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I did propose that the fibers looked suspect. For reference, for organochlorine pesticides, lindane is relatively benign. I suspect that over exposure
would cause chlorachne (so in this case, overtreatment could also be a causal).
Eczema is another ideopathic disease; lot's of people are working on it, but little in the way of results have been issued. I tend toward autoimmune,
possibly in conjunction with a virus. Enbrel (for rheumatoid arthritus has been prescribed with mixed results to treat eczema). Stress seems to make
outbreaks worse (like say, latent viral infection).
Well, I must be off to play with the chemicals (work),
O3
-Anyone who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
--Albert Einstein
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MargaretThatcher
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Seriously, this is a hoax. A few websites popped up promoting the syndrome with fictitious institutions and medics. It was debunked somewhere - maybe
on boingboing. There are very close parallels between Morgellon's syndrome and symptoms presented by characters in the A Scanner Darkly (the book).
The reformative effect of punishment is a belief that dies hard, I think, because it is so satisfying to our sadistic impulses. - Bertrand Russell
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Sauron
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The professionals are saying hysteric and psychosomatic rather than ideopathic.
Overlaying a variety of physical and mental disorders.
I'm rolling over and going back to sleep, Margellon's is a non event.
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nitro-genes
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About this Morgellons syndrome, it doesn't necessarily has to be a pathogen OR phychogically induced! 
Stomach ulcers for example are caused by infection of Heliobacter Pylori, as gil mentioned. But although we find this bacteria at the place of
infection, it doesn't mean that it is the cause of the disease! For stomach ulcers it is proven that increased levels of stress affect the amount and
composition of the acid in the stomach, resulting in a damaged stomach wall from which the bacterium (which had been present all along) can profit...
Stress in general is proven to reduce your ability to fight off pathogens, so in this way it is really not that strange that psychological factors can
have a significant influence on your physical well beeing. So it is probably a combination of many factors. Just like heart disease now seems to be a
combination of genetic inheritability, food habits, stress, and viruli...
[Edited on 18-1-2007 by nitro-genes]
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Sauron
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Yes yes, all that is well known.
The essential test for pathology is whether or not the pathogen will cause the disease if introduced into a healthy organism.
If H.pylon is endemic, and only opportunistically attacks stomach wall in some individuals, and not others than it isn't pathogenic is it? It's imply
a common gut florum.
Anyway I was under the impression that was a virus and not a bacterium. But for immediate purposes it matters little.
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nitro-genes
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It's not a pathogen like the flu for exampe, but there are a lot of these rare diseases that are a combination of reduced immune responses or other
abnormalities, and an organism that normally isn't pathogenic. I heard this grewsome story once of a man that had an abnormality in the blood/brain
barrier, that made it possible for a very common, normally harmless fungus to become a pathogen, able to resist the immune system, and feeding from
his brainmatter... Just a combination of the wrong organism at the wrong time
and place...
I'm quite sure that if this syndrome really exists it would be something like this. I mean if it would be pathogenic then it could potentially be
contagious as well, but it isn't, just like stomach ulcers and other common dermic fungus attacks...
[Edited on 18-1-2007 by nitro-genes]
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gil
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@sauron
lindane is also banned in my birt's country and the country where I'm living now. Syntethics "pirethrene"
analogues are used instead. I'm going By memory here. Doctors, Accademia, Wouldn't touch Lindane Whithout gloves on!
Other Western country ban syintethic "pyretrum" for Human Topical use. They use Benzyl Benzoate as first line treatment on that "Scabei
whatsisnamenow". Ah,Sarcoptes scabei.
None of those country experience Morgellons hysteria.
Some protozoa can "engulf"(?) cells,molecolas,atoms, BITS ,particulate of foreign matter whithin themselve,inside their bodies, and carry it along.
This same organisms are know Intradermal traveller.
(Whoah, whatta wordl). And the Foreign cells get binded,in this process.
Lorenzo's parents ( forgot name now) HAD TO GET PURIFIED OLIVE OIL FROM A U.K. COMPANY.oleic acid.
I dont think that was due to the 70" oil crisis no? More likely "lobbyng" ; reactionarist accademia.
Helicobacterium Pylori discovery,as Ulcera causal agent, came from that young doctor who used is own body as cavia, after he "politely" presented his
finding to Higher Medical autorities. And CURED himself
whith cheap antibiotics, instead of using the expensive (>20x?) treatment available and indicated for it.
We know the rest of the stories. Now the two example above are widely used and accepted.
Thanks Gods this people were "a bit stubborn".
"morgellons" is not a treathening disease, by medicine standards. It's not infective, and may very vell be endemic.
Surely goes for compromised hosts, like most opportunistic
infection. There is a lot of talk about the "fibre" but when
I found out about it, 6 month ago circa, I noted other
"strange" simptom too. The " flashes" at the corners of the
visual field, came to my mind now, and maybe other peculiar ones. Nobody mention it, here.
[Edited on 19-1-2007 by gil]
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gil
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To the people out there
I started this tread askin' personal opinion,and EXPERIENCE. Its not about who is right.
Don't get frightened, also if you get a FISH WHACK on the neck, it's virtual ,digital.
Funny chemical dermatitis exp. are welcome,too.
("you wanna buy's some Mandy's bar's???) >> FLAKE'S :> sheik yerbuti.
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Sauron
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It wasn't purified olive oil they got from the UK it was purified triglyceride ester of ereucid acid, from rapeseed oil.
And there wasn't any magic about the source being in the UK, that was totally accidental. They previously HAD obtained the oelic acid triglyceride
they first tried from a US company. So what? It could just as easily have been a Lower Slobbovian company. It does not signify anything.
The whole stupid Morgellons thing is about the idiotic MEDIA hyping up a fantasy concocted by some idiotic neurotics hypochondriacs. Why? Because bad
news sells. Americans love a new "mystery disease" whether or not it is real. About the only thing they would love more would be a new mystery STD.
It's INANE.
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gil
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They couldn't get it in US because of locked doors. I can go out now and back in 5 min whith a stone of I2 ,to make a trivial example.
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Sauron
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@gil, that is not in the film. SO are you making that up or do you have an inside source at the Myelin Foundation?
If so it's odd you can't remember the family name Adone.
My point was that they scoured the planet for the stuff, and the first chemist who was willing to undertake to make it, mostly because he was about to
retire and was bored with a lifetime of making cosmetics, happened to be British.
If you want to start drawing inferences out of thin air, about as far as logic might support is that maybe just maybe a non-US firm was less
intimidated by the US FDA than American firms were.
But remember we are not talking about anything othernthan a pure naib component of rapeseed oil, a monounsaturated fatty acid of specific carbon chain
length, esterified with glycerin
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gil
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@SAURON
Yes, adone's. I saw film 85<>90"s. I.was curios, I read the story in reliable font, by memory olive oil
was the first used precursor.No data, is the stuff so hard to make? No U S lab had the thech for it?
Film are just stories, but I got this as mega- purified oil in my mind. In the film they refluxed few time, that's it , Hollywood, but I never read
was any "rocket science involved.It was working crude.
So did they have support from Doctors from the early stages?was a easy serendiptious discovery.?
Rethinking I can see interest from docs and pharma/ny.
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Sauron
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Z-13-docosenoic acic or delta13-cis-docosenoic acid.
Erucic acid triglyceride is not particularly hard to prepare but apparently at the time it was not readily available in pure form either as the free
acid or as the ester. The technical problem was to seperate pure erucic acid from rapeseed oil in which it is admixed with other fatty acids.
According to the film, this was a "difficult fractionation".
As chemists we are often faced with difficult seperations and generally solving them is a matter of time and that means man-hours at the bench.
I would have suggested preparative HPLC as a means of accomplishing the same seperation, but I wasn't there and apparently fractional distillation did
the job.
I assume that the purity was required to demonstrate that this specific monounsaturaed fatty acid blocked the ALD process by competitive inhibition.
Did American companies have the technical expertise to prepare pure erucic triglyceride? Don't make me laugh.
Whether an American company would have knowingly supplied a non-FDA approved substance for medicinal use, is the question. Apparently if the film is
accurate one US firm did exactly that with the oleoyl triglyceride they had on the shelf but they asked for full indemnification from all liability.
In practice, I think that is probably not how it went. I think the company would have had to, on any sort of official level, been ignorant of the
intended use, because I don't think the Adones COULD indemnify then otherwise, effectively, against potential FDA recriminations.
Which is why all chemical catalogs carry bold disclaimers about NOT FOR PHARMACEUTICAL USE.
Beyond these general observations, I suggest consulting the Merck Index on ereucic acid, the literature in general on same, we ought to have something
on rapeseed oil in the forum library, and with a little reading we can see just how tough a seperation this might have been. Interesting?
K.S.Markley, Fatty Acids Part 1, 2nd.Ed, Wiley Interscience (1960) p138-139
Crude erucic acid from rapeseed oil: Org.Syn. CV 2, p.258
Purer sample: Doree and Pepper, J.Chem.Soc. 1942 p.477
Pure erucic acid: Chobanov et al,Chem & Ind (London) 1965 p.606
Synthesis: Bowman, J.Chem Soc. 1950, Bounds, J.Chem.Soc. 177, 3251953, p.2393
It's apparent from reading the Org.Syn. procedure that the "difficult fractionation" is the removal of small percentages of aranchnoic and other
saturated fatty acids. As saturated fatty acids were what was killing Lorenzo or more precisely what was demyelinating his brain, it would not do to
feed him any more.
[Edited on 20-1-2007 by Sauron]
Attachment: CV2P0258[1].pdf (124kB)
This file has been downloaded 884 times
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prica
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Alla deriva!!!
This is SO off topic ,now.
Never mind. I like the "singin pig" proverb.
Dont try it. One get annoyed,the other ,frustrated ! PASS
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Mr. Wizard
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It's Syndrome not sindrome, and Mystery, not mistery.
I think this falls into the UFO and alien abduction categories. Where is the video of this stuff ??? 
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Hilski
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| Quote: | | Where is the video of this stuff ??? |
Over the last few years there have been quite a few TV news stories from all over the country about this very thing, including an expose by ABC News'
"Primetime". Just do a search. Those who believe it is all just a hoax need to overcome the logical brainwashing that outdated medical training has
caused, and have a look around at the real world.
Here is a link to a story about a physician who had the 'disease'. This story exposes the arrogance and ignorance which a lot of so-called medical
professionals seem to have when it comes to a problem that they can't find an answer to in their textbooks. After all, if Dr. so and so hasn't heard
of it, it can't be real can it? Nah, that patient must be delusional. What bullshit.
http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/stories/20060820/localn...
For those who wish to send questions directly to the CDC: morgellonssyndrome@cdc.gov
[Edited on 1-2-2007 by Hilski]
[Edited on 1-2-2007 by Hilski]
\"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety. \"
- Benjamin Franklin
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Sauron
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Anyone who seeks truth from television news is already delusional, even without this bogus ailment.
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Hilski
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| Quote: | | Over the last few years there have been quite a few TV news stories from all over the country about this very thing, including an expose by ABC News'
"Prime time" |
Please point out the phrase in the above quote that implies anything about gleaning truth from TV news. I distrust most TV news organizations as much
as anyone, since all they seem to be about anymore is entertainment. I was simply replying to the question someone posed about "videos of this stuff"
of which there are plenty. But as I have stated earlier I have seen firsthand, an old acquaintance waste away to nothing because of this disorder.
So I have no need to seek truth from anyone on this matter.
\"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety. \"
- Benjamin Franklin
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Mr. Wizard
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"So I have no need to seek truth from anyone on this matter."
No more discussion , or thinking, needed
[Edited on 7-2-2007 by Mr. Wizard]
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Pyridinium
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I just did a little web search on this "Morgellons". Interesting to say the least. I remain skeptical but undecided.
It would appear Randy Wymore is a real fiber expert. If what I'm reading is true, the man has more experience with fiber microscopy than any 10
dermatologists or psychiatrists put together. By dismissing everything about Morgellons (especially the "fibers"), we are impugning Dr. Wymore's
competence or honesty. That seems a little harsh.
There are people who'd like to relegate chronic lyme sufferers to the realm of psychiatry, despite the fact science has established without a doubt
that microbes can produce toxic agents. We also know some of these agents can persist for a long time while remaining extremely hard to detect in
human tissue.
I agree with Sauron in that the amateur science community should study this supposed "Morgellons disease". Think of it this way: if it turns out to
be real, then you've made a contribution. If it turns out to be imaginary, then you've debunked something using actual scientific method instead of
the old saw of "it's not what's said, it's who says it".
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Sauron
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IIRC Lyme's is caused by a spirochete carried by ticks. Spirochetes are bacteria and easy to spot; the most famous spirochete being syphilis.
Fortunately they are also easy to kill. Left untreated they will wreak havoc in the CNS because of lesions created by their colonies, and at that
stage it is too late to kill them, because you'd kill the patient. In syphilis, that's the tertiary stage, aka paresis, insanity and death. The way Al
Capone went. I believe Lyme's follows same slow course.
Obviously, if the sufferer is succesfully treated but remains in an area where the tick vector is endemic, he or she can be reinfected. One can
imagine a recurring cycle that could appear to be "chronic" and if mismanaged, could eventually lead to real neurological impairment with psychiatric
consequences.
I am not aware that the Lyme spirochete produces toxins, That would be easy to test, just culture the bitch and see if it produces anything potent. I
would not think the microbiology boys and girls would have missed this.
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