VSEPR_VOID
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Red to White Phosphorus Reaction Vessel
Lets imagine two aluminium cans, 60 ml in volume, were soldered together and charged with 30g of red phosphorus. Said can complex was placed in a
charcoal furnace. Would it explode, releasing plumes of molten white P or stay sealed allowing me to retrieve the contents?
It would be far simpler to construct a sort of pipe bomb vessle than to construct a retort. Once the last of thr air inside of the vessle was used up
there would be little chance of rxplosion correct?
[Edited on 19-4-2018 by VSEPR_VOID]
[Edited on 19-4-2018 by VSEPR_VOID]
[edit by moderator]
Edited title. Sorry, the word, "essel" was bugging me.
[Edited on 20-4-2018 by j_sum1]
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Tsjerk
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Don't close it, leave one side open (small hole) and cool that side. Also go for a little milder heating source, an adjustable electric hotplate or
something.
No, actually forget the soldered cans, go for a short path glass distillation setup. You will be able to see if there is no clogging between the two
compartments, which will result in pressure and, indeed, white molten/burning/not fun white phosphorous flying around. If you don't have the needed
glassware, please don't improvise, just make sure you get the needed glassware.
Please think long and hard about safety measures  phosphorous burns are not nice.
Edit: OK, a hotplate is probably not going to cut it, you probably need a flame, but still, go for a butane torch, which will make it a lot easier to
control the amount of heat.
And think about a way to prevent air suck-back into your system! Hopefully for obvious reasons.
[Edited on 19-4-2018 by Tsjerk]
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VSEPR_VOID
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Yes, I have respect for white phosphorus and if I was to make it I would stress safety. I am just curious if it can be made with something more simple
than a retort. I may try this at a 1g scale using the cans I memtioned.
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Tsjerk
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Just realize you won't be able to see the phosphorus if in a can, you probably won't be able to get it out as it catches fire while doing so.
Edit: instead of two cans, you can just as well just take a tube, just long enough so one end can be heated while the other stays cool, keep the open
side under water.
[Edited on 19-4-2018 by Tsjerk]
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VSEPR_VOID
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wont the white P burn if there is a source of O2, like if the pipe was opened?
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symboom
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The only thing i can think of to prevent that would be to add charcoal or cotton ball so that reacts with the oxygen in the tube
So red phosphourous in a closed tube lead into water at the other end but making sure water doesnt get pulled in so a pipe connected to a funnel in
water to prevent suck back a aluminum tube should work well and i think a copper pipe reacts with phosphorous and the best would be a steel pipe
Threads are a mush to close off one end of the pipe either by crimping the end by crushing one end of the pipe or using a end cap for the pipe.
Pipes with one end closed off already i have seen at a hardware store
[Edited on 19-4-2018 by symboom]
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VSEPR_VOID
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I will do the calculations but for 20g of red P I would think a small pipe would be more than enough. I would open the cans/pipe under cold water. I
don not think there would be any way for it to ignite once it was cooled.
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Tsjerk
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Please don't heat a closed pipe, just take a pipe with a fair diameter (against suck back), with the last 30 cm or so (open side) completely vertical.
Having it vertical while having a large enough diameter will help preventing the water from flowing into the reaction part of the pipe.
There will definitely be some oxygen in the tube which will react with phosphorus to form some oxide, but as it is a gas there won't be a whole lot of
it and will be exhausted quickly.
The water will help condense the phosphorus and prevent it from catching fire.
Watch this: This reaction is a whole lot hotter as he is actually reducing phosphate to free the phosphorus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4JQDc5Eon0&t=435s
[Edited on 19-4-2018 by Tsjerk]
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aga
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Quote: Originally posted by VSEPR_VOID  | | Lets imagine two aluminium cans, 60 ml in volume, were soldered together and charged with 30g of red phosphorus. Said can complex was placed in a
charcoal furnace. ... |
Firstly the Aluminium cans would need an acidic flux to be able to solder them at all, due to the Well Known fact that Al reacts rapidly with
atmospheric oxygen, forming a protective oxide coating.
The solder would simply melt in the charcoal furnace = no tube, probably bits of P everywhere, causing some Poo to be generated by the operator.
Soldering is applying heat + metal to another couple of metals to join them.
I suppose they could be Welded under argon to make a tube.
Please google more to get at least 1 fact straight before posting about something that you have no intention of ever trying.
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Tsjerk
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Take a steel pipe, bend it, and hammer one side flat. Perfect reaction chamber
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VSEPR_VOID
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | | Quote: Originally posted by VSEPR_VOID | | Lets imagine two aluminium cans, 60 ml in volume, were soldered together and charged with 30g of red phosphorus. Said can complex was placed in a
charcoal furnace. ... |
Firstly the Aluminium cans would need an acidic flux to be able to solder them at all, due to the Well Known fact that Al reacts rapidly with
atmospheric oxygen, forming a protective oxide coating.
The solder would simply melt in the charcoal furnace = no tube, probably bits of P everywhere, causing some Poo to be generated by the operator.
Soldering is applying heat + metal to another couple of metals to join them.
I suppose they could be Welded under argon to make a tube.
Please google more to get at least 1 fact straight before posting about something that you have no intention of ever trying. |
A very good point
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VSEPR_VOID
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I am curious about this because I purchased 100g of red phosphorus (98.8% pure) for only 30 dollars.
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Ubya
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | | Quote: Originally posted by VSEPR_VOID | | Lets imagine two aluminium cans, 60 ml in volume, were soldered together and charged with 30g of red phosphorus. Said can complex was placed in a
charcoal furnace. ... |
Firstly the Aluminium cans would need an acidic flux to be able to solder them at all, due to the Well Known fact that Al reacts rapidly with
atmospheric oxygen, forming a protective oxide coating.
The solder would simply melt in the charcoal furnace = no tube, probably bits of P everywhere, causing some Poo to be generated by the operator.
Soldering is applying heat + metal to another couple of metals to join them.
I suppose they could be Welded under argon to make a tube.
Please google more to get at least 1 fact straight before posting about something that you have no intention of ever trying. |
mhh aluminium cans in a charcoal furnace, not only the solder would melt, but also the cans  aluminium melts at 660°C, a coal fire can reach 1000 °C easily
you could build a short retort plus the chamber out of steel pipes and adapters
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VSEPR_VOID
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I dont know what I would do with so much white P! I do not think I could sell all of it.
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Tsjerk
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First make some before you worry about what to do with it.
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j_sum1
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100g of red P to play with!
You will find plenty of uses for it as your chem experience grows. Don't waste it.
If you are interested in white P and getting it from red then I advise working at test tube scale. Put maybe 50 micrograms of red phosphorus in the
bottom of a test tube. Plug the mouth loosely with some cotton wool. Hold it in a Bunsen flame. The red phosphorus will sublime and then solidify
further up on the test tube. Much of it will be on the surface of the cotton wool. Pull the cotton wool out with some foreceps and watch it
spontaneously ignite in air.
Working at small scale enables you to see all of the science. And it also lets you do it safely. This is a fun little exercise and good to do --
especially if you intend to do something larger scale at a later date.
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Sulaiman
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Always worry first !
e.g. Aluminiumum + phosphorous makes aluminium phosphide,
which on contact with water/moisture produces phosphine gas. 
CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur
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VSEPR_VOID
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I would like to do that when I get a hood. Phosphous trichloride is also on my to do list. I actually have made white phosphorous before on a test
tube scale when I was 15. I used red phosphorus from match boxes and removed it using acetone and a razor.
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