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BaFuxa
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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 03:25
Intellectual Property on Youtube


Last night I was thinking of the youtuber named NileRed and just realized how most of his videos are just copies of others, made shorter and filmed in HD.

I lost count of how many videos he stole from doug's lab. Now, I certainly appreciate that he is popularizing the hobby as that means more people will sell glassware and reagents but I do believe most of what he does is just intellectual property theft.

For example, his video on the nitric acid " synthesis" from KNO3 is a copy of the procedure laid out by Doug's lab. In chemistry, a synthesis can be patented, because you bust your ass working out the theory, the set up, the optimization. In the patent system you have to pay something to the inventor of the process if you use it commercially, ie to make money.

Nilered does make money, his channel is a commercial one, he sells t shirts, glassware marked with his channel avatar and he has a patreon and he cashes in 1500 $ for every video he makes.

So in short, he takes something that you made and then sells it to someone without your permission, without giving you a single dime. He steals what you do and makes money off your back.

I do not envy the money he is making, it is just that this is technically theft. Nurdrage makes about the same amount of money but he always comes up with synthesis of his own, I never saw him copy or plagiarize someone else's work, you can really feel the effort he puts into his chemistry, unlike that other crook.

I was thinking about this as I have lots of footage of my experiments that I could post but for what, if this nile thief swoops in, copies everything and makes money off my hard work? No way.

Just wondering what you views are on that as I imagine that you can appreciate how much time and effort it can take to get a synthesis right.




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crystal grower
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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 04:16


You cant patent something known for a century or call it your intellectual property. NileRed knows how to do the marketing and thats it. Maybe he does copy procedures from other channels, but essentially they all come from textbooks or scientific papers. Therefore you cannot sue him for doing that.



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wg48
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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 04:35


Most of Nilered's videos are just videos of procedures and stuff that has been done many times before. If there is any novelty in them it would be the videoing and presentation of them. So using your definition of intellectual property theft would make almost 100% of chemistry and a lot of other videos from lots of people intellectual theft.
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aga
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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 04:39


Hey !

You guys are typing stuff into a computerised device and publishing those words onto an internet forum.

Thought i had that process patented :o

C'mon. Pay up.




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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 05:49


IIRC, he references almost all of his videos and usually gives credit where it is due. I'm not defending or attacking him. I'm just stateing what I have observed.

[Edited on 2-6-2018 by TheNerdyFarmer]
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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 06:13


Does watching one video on a specific synthesis somehow make the others irrelevant? Heck, you could make a channel on YouTube called "The Checker" and ONLY run experiments that have already been run by others verbatim and it would not be something I would even think about dubbing theft of intellectual property. Instead it's something that chemists have done for hundreds of years.



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streety
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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 06:25


I agree with crystal grower and wg48 on this one. The most that could be reasonably be expected is mention of the source for the protocol. NileRed, and many of the other chemists on youtube, do this for some of their videos. I assume the decision on whether to mention the source largely depends on how novel/unusual the procedure is and how heavily they rely on the source.

There is another problem with this argument. A quick search suggests you've got it backwards!

Making Fuming Nitric Acid by NileRed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YWVBBGSxZ8
Published on 12 Apr 2014

Nitric Acid Day! by Doug's Lab https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG4OaPTWPOA
Published on 20 May 2015

NileRed posted more than a year before Doug's Lab. Perhaps you have only seen this more recent post by NileRed? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmCdrDLyNXQ

Or, perhaps you know about this video from before the change in channel name? Except, the procedure is different so your argument doesn't really apply here either.

If you want a better example, perhaps use NurdRage. He posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yE7v4wkuZU on 3 Jun 2009.
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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 06:32


Forgot the most important comment I wanted to make:

Quote: Originally posted by BaFuxa  
I was thinking about this as I have lots of footage of my experiments that I could post but for what, if this nile thief swoops in, copies everything and makes money off my hard work? No way.


If sharing your work would bring you joy please don't deny yourself that pleasure just because someone else might profit from it. Someone else benefiting should only be a negative it you let it affect you.

In summary, please do post your videos!



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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 07:46


What's with the focus on videos? The most important thing is to know how to make something. I believe I was the first to publish a procedure for making nitric acid (on this forum). Where are my royalties? I used the procedure of Eleusius, who I credited in my procedure in the Prepublication forum.

[Edited on 2-6-2018 by Magpie]




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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 08:46


Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
What's with the focus on videos?

Same as always - noob posts a thread with absolutely no physical effort required on their part.

None of that silliness like doing an experiment for themselves, or anything crazy like that.

No, much better to just comment on stuff other people do instead - it's the Future !




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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 11:00


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
What's with the focus on videos?

Same as always - noob posts a thread with absolutely no physical effort required on their part.

None of that silliness like doing an experiment for themselves, or anything crazy like that.

No, much better to just comment on stuff other people do instead - it's the Future !
And here we have the same aga as always- posting in lots of threads calling out people for not experimenting and being a general curmudgeon when all he's done lately was some half-assed thing with a lemon!

That's not to say I support what BaFuxa is saying- he's way off base, as NileRed is a fine chemist and produces high quality videos. Procedures like nitric acid production are so simple and ancient that it's ridiculous to think that anyone alive today could have a patent on it. If it was something like Doug's ketene lamp, for example, that might be a different story since he actually designed and constructed an apparatus that is essentially a lab scale version of an industrial process. But even with that, I think a link to the original video should be sufficient.




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aga
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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 11:30


Ahem !
That was a stoichiometric lemon, hand selected from my own tree.

I almost went ahead with copying Doug's Ketene Lamp after watching his video over and over again.

It is such an inspiring process, and his video style is compelling - just heat and acetone. Utterly fascinating process.

Bought all the stuff, then chickened out due to ball-size.

NileRed's videos are very well produced. I like 'em.

Edit:

That isn't all i've done recently (he said, piling on the hurt-look pathos).

Unfortunately there's still gallons of gold waste being 'processed'.

Separating copper et al out of toxic heavy-metal waste is hardly worth a mention, not even in the 'Everyday Chemistry' thread, seeing as it's actually quite boring after the first 10 litres.

In any case, it's physical work, which is no longer fashionable.

That isn't just SM - it's across the whole spectrum of fully internet-enabled countries' societies.

In about 5 years you'll have to travel to Africa to find someone who can recognise a twig, knows where to get one, can chop it half, and has even has a tool to do it.

Now, if all you wanted was a Twig website and a Chopping App, you'd be fine.

[Edited on 2-6-2018 by aga]




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NEMO-Chemistry
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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 12:44


So many channels are closing down, its a good job others do copy or one day we are not going to have handy videos to copy things from.

Personally i am not a big fan of cameras in a lab, i have never mastered the ability to not have something go tits up and cause complete chaos. But then again i do my chemistry for my fun and no one elses (yeah selfish bastard lol).

As for Africa and a stick, first thing i would them is a spade to dig there own fucking wells not an axe

[Edited on 2-6-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]
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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 13:05


Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
... Personally i am not a big fan of cameras in a lab

Agreed, whole-heartedly .

Last time i got excited about filming i added nitric instead of sulphuric acid and was really pleased to see a vigorous reaction (for the footage) right up to the point when i realised the error and what was about to happen.

Gave up making utoob videos after that.

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

... As for Africa and a stick, first thing i would them is a spade to dig there own fucking wells not an axe

That is a bit harsh.

Oxfam has been working hard for 76 years to bring those most deserving and needy people the very best life that can be had, given the terrible circumstances, and do it all through charitable contributions.

I mean the CEO on 120k+ a year, plus the top management.

If they can't even get the spade/axe/hole problem fixed in 76 years they really should give it up as a bad job.




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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 13:31


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
... Personally i am not a big fan of cameras in a lab

Agreed, whole-heartedly .

Last time i got excited about filming i added nitric instead of sulphuric acid and was really pleased to see a vigorous reaction (for the footage) right up to the point when i realised the error and what was about to happen.

Gave up making utoob videos after that.

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

... As for Africa and a stick, first thing i would them is a spade to dig there own fucking wells not an axe

That is a bit harsh.

Oxfam has been working hard for 76 years to bring those most deserving and needy people the very best life that can be had, given the terrible circumstances, and do it all through charitable contributions.

I mean the CEO on 120k+ a year, plus the top management.

If they can't even get the spade/axe/hole problem fixed in 76 years they really should give it up as a bad job.


Yes the axe comment was harsh and uncalled for, i gave £20 (alot of money to me) to a so called appeal for wells, turned out to be a scam.

But hurt pride is no excuse to be offensive and i retract what i said.

You made me laugh with the camera thing, YOU TUBE!!! I was on about taking pics!! only way i would consider doing videos is with a full camera crew and director!!

I admire those that can calmly do experiments and seemly no oh shit moments as things foam over or go badly wrong!!

I needed chlorine, just a small amount so got the chloride cell, wrong tube used and in seconds eaten through and chlorine causing havoc like a 2 year old in temper!

How the hell does that stuff take hinges off so quickly!
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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 13:51


Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
... only way i would consider doing videos is with a full camera crew and director!!

It's crazy easy to do - just need camera(s) to take footage then edit it in a free bit of software, then upload.
I used Kdenlive.
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
... I admire those that can calmly do experiments and seemly no oh shit moments as things foam over or go badly wrong!!

That's just editing out the bits where it screws up, only including the bits you want to show.

A pair of soiled underpants might cause offence to someone on utoob ;)

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
... I needed chlorine, just a small amount so got the chloride cell, wrong tube used and in seconds eaten

Confused.

The last few times i used it, a PEqAF on top of a 500ml HDPE bottle was used as the generator so it could be loosely capped and put far away to wait for it to stop producing.

Tubing was really cheap from a Chinese shop.

It does not survive too badly, certainly never cracked or leaked, although using it twice did not seem a good idea as it went white instead of transparent.

A max of about an hour of production did not cause any 'difficulties' with that setup.




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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 13:59


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
... only way i would consider doing videos is with a full camera crew and director!!

It's crazy easy to do - just need camera(s) to take footage then edit it in a free bit of software, then upload.
I used Kdenlive.
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
... I admire those that can calmly do experiments and seemly no oh shit moments as things foam over or go badly wrong!!

That's just editing out the bits where it screws up, only including the bits you want to show.

A pair of soiled underpants might cause offence to someone on utoob ;)

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
... I needed chlorine, just a small amount so got the chloride cell, wrong tube used and in seconds eaten

Confused.

The last few times i used it, a PEqAF on top of a 500ml HDPE bottle was used as the generator so it could be loosely capped and put far away to wait for it to stop producing.

Tubing was really cheap from a Chinese shop.

It does not survive too badly, certainly never cracked or leaked, although using it twice did not seem a good idea as it went white instead of transparent.

A max of about an hour of production did not cause any 'difficulties' with that setup.

This was blackened and eaten through in seconds!! same with the metal hinges...

I might try airline tubing next then, my main mistake was not checking the stopcock was closed on the acid.

Might be easier to video than hold a camera, nothing i am doing lately is that interesting. Bio Methane is exciting if like the odd bubble now and then :D

I will do black powder again, now i know its alot tamer than i was expecting. Washed drift wood works really well! Especially home made stuff with no calcium in it.
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[*] posted on 2-6-2018 at 15:24


I like 'em all! And, I watch them all. Each has his good points. So, I compare and contrast.

Further, I would like to thank them all, for sharing.

Little, by little, procedures are refined and improved.

Eventually, evolving to that point, where we refer to a particular approach as "Elegant".

I have particular admiration for Nurdrage, and UC235. Done some clever things, those boys.

If they can also make a buck; more power to them!

[Edited on 3-6-2018 by zed]
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[*] posted on 3-6-2018 at 13:45


Quote: Originally posted by zed  
I like 'em all! And, I watch them all. Each has his good points. So, I compare and contrast.

Further, I would like to thank them all, for sharing.

Little, by little, procedures are refined and improved.

Eventually, evolving to that point, where we refer to a particular approach as "Elegant".

I have particular admiration for Nurdrage, and UC235. Done some clever things, those boys.

If they can also make a buck; more power to them!

[Edited on 3-6-2018 by zed]


I must admit i admire anyone who can do a half decent video, sounds easy but so does photography, i am just not very good at it.

Look at Chem player!! I know people say its editing etc, but you still need a flare for it, its a form of art after all and i cant draw a stick man!!

I like most of the channels, i prefer the talking ones and tend to hate the music in background ones!! But hats off to them.

Dougs and Chem player are by far my favorites, nurd rage is good and fair play to him. Nile red also is good.

I think its a bit unfair complaining about the money side for them, the amount of work that goes into some of them.

Only thing i have against chem player is there fan! No idea why but the fan they use sends my dog woppy! None the others do but the fan they use sends him off into a barking fit!



[Edited on 3-6-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]
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[*] posted on 3-6-2018 at 15:51


I think that this thread is pretty much asking the wrong question. From a practical standpoint, if you post something to YT you can say goodbye to any intellectual property rights you might have.

YT barely has the ability to track down and deal with copyright issues. It does not have the resources to even know what the content of its videos are; let alone ascribe ownership of the ideas contained in the videos to the correct person. So irrespective of what the laws say in whatever jurisdiction you belong to, if you post it on YT, the information is out there and you really cannot claim that intellectual property for yourself.
  • If you want to retain intellectual property rights, file a patent and keep the details to yourself.
  • If you want to share, post on YouTube.
  • If you want both, then have a paper published in a journal and make sure your name is on it. After that, post on YouTube if you wish. And others who read your paper might do the same.




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BaFuxa
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[*] posted on 5-6-2018 at 11:36


@ streety

I stand corrected then :D. Yes I agree that nilered is great material for introductory chemistry and that his videos are well filmed. Let's hope he does not go the way of the king of random.

[Edited on 5-6-2018 by BaFuxa]




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