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Author: Subject: Jackpot from abandoned institute of inorganic chemistry
TheMrbunGee
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[*] posted on 10-7-2018 at 06:44
Jackpot from abandoned institute of inorganic chemistry


Scored some good stuff from abandoned place, had some day job business there, decided to take a look around and found some useful stuff.

Most of it is cleared out, but still. ( sadly went past empty storage room of hydrates).

No pictures of the place itself, because it was mostly empty and was not that interesting.
WhatsApp Image 2018-07-10 at 17.34.51.jpeg - 216kB

Sorting it all out right now, I'll update what did I got!





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MJ101
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[*] posted on 10-7-2018 at 06:54


That looks like a nice find. :)

Best of luck with everything there.
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TheMrbunGee
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[*] posted on 10-7-2018 at 09:07


This is what I got, lazy excel, sorry for that! Quantity is approximate and given in grams.

Capture1.PNG - 40kB
There is a mistake:
C4H2N2O4 · H2O Alloxan monohydrate 100g



As a Bonuss - I give you 2 mystery substances:
WhatsApp Image 2018-07-10 at 20.42.03 (2).jpeg - 61kB
A and B (both might be related in some way)

A is a grey powder, not really soluble in water.
B is dark brown powder even less soluble in water.


WhatsApp Image 2018-07-10 at 20.42.03 (1).jpeg - 71kB
A substance dissolves in HCl forming yellow solution.
B substance is not dissolving well in HCl.


WhatsApp Image 2018-07-10 at 20.42.03.jpeg - 77kB
A substance dissolves in H2SO4 and forms pinkish solution.
B substance dissolves in H2SO4 and gives brownish solution.


A substance colors flame greenish, confirms suspicion of boron being present.
B substance decomposes in flame giving black foam, might be organic compound. colors flame yellow, not really a hint. might be carbon.


What should I do next?




[Edited on 10-7-2018 by TheMrbunGee]

[Edited on 10-7-2018 by TheMrbunGee]




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Vosoryx
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[*] posted on 10-7-2018 at 19:08


I'm amazingly jealous. What a find.
Some pretty obscure ones in there too.




"Open your mind son, before someone opens it for you." - Dr. Walter Bishop
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Tdep
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[*] posted on 10-7-2018 at 19:54


350g of rubidium salts? Not that useful honestly, but that's a small fortune!
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RogueRose
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[*] posted on 10-7-2018 at 20:19


Looks like someone may have made custom fireworks??
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TheMrbunGee
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[*] posted on 11-7-2018 at 00:42


Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
Looks like someone may have made custom fireworks??



As an institute of inorganic chemistry - I think the had huge variety of different chemicals, these I got from just 2 cabinets someone forgot to clear. I don think they were making fireworks in there. (maybe just for fun once in a while)

And I left a lot there, took only things I found interesting. (and could store at home. (there was a jar of anhydrous aluminum chloride, that I had to leave there, because it was sitting in sulfuric desiccator and it would be hard to transport and I don't have a room for that setup))

Quote:

350g of rubidium salts? Not that useful honestly, but that's a small fortune!


yea, there are many things I would never pay for, but now that I have them - I can explore some properties.




So no one is up for the challenge?




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MJ101
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[*] posted on 11-7-2018 at 01:32


Is substance A some sort of Chromate?

I was reading about it here:
http://www.chem-toddler.com/chemical-equilibrium/chromatedic...

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CobaltChloride
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[*] posted on 11-7-2018 at 03:35


Wow... A kilo and a half of mercury salt... Weren't you even a bit scared to take that thing home?
Also, substance A may very well be a barium compound as those color the flame greenish, while boric acid colors it bright green.
If I were to guess based on your results, I'd say the black powder is either MnO2 or Mn2O3 just because it gives that solution is H2SO4 (which looks like Mn (III) from the photo) and isn't soluble in water. As for the HCl reaction, MnO2 and especially Mn2O3 sometimes reacts quite slowly with room-temperature dilute aqueous HCl, so it might seem insoluble.
Substance A is really weird as I don't know any compound with all those properties. It might be some MnCO3 contaminated with Fe2O3 though, but that wouldn't explain the green flame and would only account for the colors of the solutions.
I might be totally wrong here, but this is the only explanation I could find.
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Herr Haber
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[*] posted on 11-7-2018 at 03:50


Quote: Originally posted by Tdep  
350g of rubidium salts? Not that useful honestly, but that's a small fortune!


And the Cs !
But I wouldnt know what to do with 1400g of Mercury salts except be scared!

I'm still jealous though :D
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TheMrbunGee
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[*] posted on 11-7-2018 at 05:16


Quote: Originally posted by CobaltChloride  
Wow... A kilo and a half of mercury salt... Weren't you even a bit scared to take that thing home?
...........



Excitement was overwhelming. :D haven't opened any of Hg containers yet.

__________________________________________________
I have a strong feeling that both of them are related to boron. (because of location where I got them)

B barely decomposes H2O2 (10%)
B and H2O2.PNG - 160kB,


It does, when I added NaOH solution, but not as intensive as it should.
B+ NaOH + H2O2.PNG - 221kB


Today I looked at B in daylight and it is more like dark brown-yellow. maybe a hint of green.
B color.PNG - 324kB


B powder dropped in warm concentrated NaOH solution clumps it op and makes it almost black,
B+ NaOH just added.PNG - 122kB

After stirring it partially dissolves, (same solution more exposed on the right)
B+ NaOH normal light.PNG - 99kB B+ NaOH.PNG - 111kB


In 28% HCl after warming, it dissolves and forms solution in the color of baby vomit (left pic.)
Something sinks down, but its much lighter in color.
I don't have distilled water, but after I added tap water to the HCl solution yellow color was gone, and some white-ish particles formed and sank to the bottom, next to the particles that did not dissolve in the first place(right).
B + HCl.PNG - 141kB B + HCl + water.PNG - 336kB

Wouldn't carbonate release CO2 in acid?

And I don't think any of them are chromates.



[Edited on 11-7-2018 by TheMrbunGee]




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CobaltChloride
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[*] posted on 11-7-2018 at 06:43


How does A react with H2O2? I really don't know any compound that is pink in H2SO4 solution besides those of Mn(II) and those would catalyze the decomposition. What seems odd to me is that the solution of A in H2SO4 doesn't really look like MnSO4 and looks more like ferrate (VI), but that wouldn't exist in acid solution.

I don't think either of them contains boron because they should be inorganic considering they are from an inorganic chemistry institution, and the only inorganic compounds of boron which are stable in water and acid solution are the borates, but those would be colorless.

[Edited on 11-7-2018 by CobaltChloride]
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TheMrbunGee
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[*] posted on 11-7-2018 at 09:05


Quote: Originally posted by CobaltChloride  


I don't think either of them contains boron because they should be inorganic considering they are from an inorganic chemistry institution, and the only inorganic compounds of boron which are stable in water and acid solution are the borates, but those would be colorless.

[Edited on 11-7-2018 by CobaltChloride]


They might not, true. but the place had plenty of organic stuff, so it might be organic.

_______________________________________
A substance slowly decompose H2O2,
a+ h2o2.PNG - 151kB

After I heated the mixture, decomposition was fast and self sustaining.
a+ h2o2 + heat.PNG - 356kB

And I'm left with yellowish solid after H2O2 was spent.
a+ h2o2 + heat done.PNG - 69kB


Also I found that substance A reacts with methanol, forming greenish solution (it does not dissolve completely, but colors both - methanol and solid dirty green color) which after an hour have turned more brown.
A+ MeOH.PNG - 149kB

After shaking up.
A+ MeOH shaked.PNG - 238kB

Nothing interesting happens with both substances in:
Ethanol
Methanol (for substance B)
DCM


__________________________________________
Edit:

More on MeOH and substance A:

On combining of two, solution and solid turns green
MeOH + A.PNG - 239kB

On heating turns brown in about 30 secounds
MeOH + A + heat.PNG - 300kB

Solution burns with green flame
flame.PNG - 290kB

[Edited on 11-7-2018 by TheMrbunGee]




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Hunterman2244
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[*] posted on 11-7-2018 at 09:36


WishI had stuff like that around me. The substance a seems like something copper containing, maybe some complex. Was thinking organic, but its an inorganic chem institute.
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TheMrbunGee
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[*] posted on 11-7-2018 at 09:52


Quote: Originally posted by Hunterman2244  
WishI had stuff like that around me. The substance a seems like something copper containing, maybe some complex. Was thinking organic, but its an inorganic chem institute.


I have not obtained any copper salt typical color.. And as I said there was plenty of organic substances, I even have some in my list!




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[*] posted on 11-7-2018 at 09:59


That flame definitely looks like something containing either boron or copper (as hunterman said). I would be more inclined to think it is copper as all the organics you had there were common chemicals (nothing exotic), but boranes and borate esters are somewhat more exotic.

The results of the test you did are very weird. Both substances behave as a mix of different compounds, especially regarding color.

[Edited on 11-7-2018 by CobaltChloride]
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[*] posted on 11-7-2018 at 10:28


Quote: Originally posted by CobaltChloride  
That flame definitely looks like something containing either boron or copper (as hunterman said). I would be more inclined to think it is copper as all the organics you had there were common chemicals (nothing exotic), but boranes and borate esters are somewhat more exotic.

The results of the test you did are very weird. Both substances behave as a mix of different compounds, especially regarding color.

[Edited on 11-7-2018 by CobaltChloride]

That's what I was thinking, some organic copper complex. The brown color made me think of something organic, maybe reacting with the methanol and releasing copper ions.
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[*] posted on 11-7-2018 at 10:50


I wouldn't think an organic complex would be stable inside a flame, but A was stable enough for TheMrbunGee to do a flame test.
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[*] posted on 11-7-2018 at 10:55


Note that thallium imparts a similarly green color to flames. I don't know enough about Tl chemistry to tell if your other tests are compatible with it being a compound of Tl, but you might want to be careful about handling it until you know its identity.



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TheMrbunGee
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[*] posted on 11-7-2018 at 12:08


Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston  
Note that thallium imparts a similarly green color to flames. I don't know enough about Tl chemistry to tell if your other tests are compatible with it being a compound of Tl, but you might want to be careful about handling it until you know its identity.


You actually got me scared for a minute. :D
___________________________________________________
Ok, did some tests.

First I combined both substances with ammonia solution.

A gained a slight blue hint. (B left; A right)
in ammonia.PNG - 222kB


B actually dissolved. Left Pine green solution. (shining light trough B solution)
B in ammonia.PNG - 114kB


Next I decomposed both substances by heating (yes, both of them decomposes:
A leaves black clumps, releases quite a lot of water and some tar. ;

B foams up, releases some water and leaves black to dark brown solid foam . )

Products of decomposition Were added to HCl 28%:

A - turned copper sulfate blue
A in HCl, decomposed.PNG - 229kB

B - nothing.
B in HCl, decomposed.PNG - 164kB

Added some H2O2 (10%) :

A turned copper chloride green
A in HCl, decomposed + H2O2.PNG - 255kB

B turned yellow,
B in HCl, decomposed + H2O2.PNG - 199kB
After mixing,
B in HCl, decomposed + H2O2 2.PNG - 205kB
After heating some hint of green was observed.
B in HCl, decomposed + H2O2 3.PNG - 317kB

A is copper for sure.

B - Not sure yet. But maybe.

Both organic.

[Edited on 11-7-2018 by TheMrbunGee]




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[*] posted on 11-7-2018 at 12:09


It can't be thallium. Thallium is well known to have very poorly soluble halides, but the substance which turns the flame green dissolves in HCl.
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[*] posted on 12-7-2018 at 05:57


Substance A has the appearance of copper Iodide, CuI. It's a water insoluble beige/gray solid where Cu has +1 oxidation state and can give rise to intermediate complexes with different colorations (among which even the yellow you see with HCl). The pink in H2SO4 actually reminded me of cobalt, but that green flame is a giveaway of copper.

In many of those reactions something turns Brown. That could be iodine forming. Did you smell any iodine? Usually the smell is very distinct. On heating, do you get purple vapors?

Substance B is a bit unusual if it's only inorganic. It Looks like manganese oxide but the reaction products you get afterwards look more like some iron II/III mix, while that teal green coloration you get with ammonia looks like nickel II.

If you want to carry out additional tests, I'd separate any solid from that solution and attempt some redox reaction of whatever is leftover. Also try and see if Aqua regia destroys the black lumps.
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TheMrbunGee
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[*] posted on 12-7-2018 at 06:51


Quote: Originally posted by Metallus  
Substance A has the appearance of copper Iodide, CuI. It's a water insoluble beige/gray solid where Cu has +1 oxidation state and can give rise to intermediate complexes with different colorations (among which even the yellow you see with HCl). The pink in H2SO4 actually reminded me of cobalt, but that green flame is a giveaway of copper.

In many of those reactions something turns Brown. That could be iodine forming. Did you smell any iodine? Usually the smell is very distinct. On heating, do you get purple vapors?

Substance B is a bit unusual if it's only inorganic. It Looks like manganese oxide but the reaction products you get afterwards look more like some iron II/III mix, while that teal green coloration you get with ammonia looks like nickel II.

If you want to carry out additional tests, I'd separate any solid from that solution and attempt some redox reaction of whatever is leftover. Also try and see if Aqua regia destroys the black lumps.



I did not detect any iodine. I know the smell and it was not there. decomposition of A substance gave a nasty stench, but nothing distinct I could recognize. some tar formed - it could be anything.

Substance B is also organic. Black lumps seems to be carbon. in both cases.


I'll try something, but not now, I'll update!




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[*] posted on 12-7-2018 at 07:40


Good find. In Germany I suppose?

Went on the hunt here too 2 or 3 years ago. But was not very lucky.
Indeed I was very unlucky.

Here I came appr. 1 year too late:





In another similar one I came just a few months too late and got only a handful of nice empty Merck bottles and an empty 5l benzene flask (former GDR).




Former Eastern Germany has still some "treasures", there was so much chemical industry in the former GDR, which only got abandoned at some point after 1990.
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TheMrbunGee
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[*] posted on 12-7-2018 at 08:07


Looks amazing!

No I am in Latvia, and this institute seems to be abandoned recently, I found some notes from 2004. but they might as well be left there after shut down.

and I saw pictures from 2016 when it was full of jars stacked in piles to be utilized. I am really sad, I did not know about that place earlier..




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