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Author: Subject: Problems with Lithium Batteries
Sulaiman
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First attempt at Li from +123 Cell

LOOK ! .... Lithium under oil !

There is a length of glass capillary tubing holding it down

Next time I will try to get a shiny sample
Abromination
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 Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers Why are the Energizer Li cells 1.8V? Most (all?) other Li cells are right around 3V.

Energizer ultimate lithium cells only use the lithium cell to make a longer lasting battery, in this case the 1.5 volt AA, not how much power they put out. Think about it, most people need 1.5 v batteries more than the 3v button batteries. Also, nothing is made to take 3 volts that has a place for a AA battery and vice versa. Essentially (im rambling now, havent had my morning tea) they wantes a better AA battery.

 Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman LOOK ! .... Lithium under oil ! There is a length of glass capillary tubing holding it down Next time I will try to get a shiny sample

That isnt a fatty oil (vegetable, olive, canola oil) is it? Otherwise you have ruined your lithium and turned the oil to soap.

Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers
 Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber Err, paraffin wax a solvent ? It's an interesting idea but then how do you clean your lithium from the paraffin ? I dont doubt it can be done, just unsure how messy and efficient it'll be.

In British English sometimes kerosene is called "paraffin" and Americans confuse this for the wax. I'm almost certain this is what's meant by keeping Li in paraffin.

Both should work, and I do think he meant the wax.

[Edited on 9-8-18 by Abromination]

--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
--------------
MrHomeScientist
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Have you tested to make sure that is lithium? It looks like it sunk in that oil, unless it's stuck in the tube, and that makes me a little skeptical. Congratulations if so!
Abromination
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 Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist Have you tested to make sure that is lithium? It looks like it sunk in that oil, unless it's stuck in the tube, and that makes me a little skeptical. Congratulations if so!

He's holding it down with a glass rod.

Also, that most certainly is vegetable oil. I can see the oil around the lithium saponifying and the lithium falling apart. Also, it doesn't look like you put the oil under vacuum first to remove the oxygen. Bad juju.
If you care for your lithium, remove it now, wash it with toluene (not water, obviously, I did that once not thinking as a beginner) and store it under something that wont turn to soap. It wont even be useful soap, lithium soaps are only used for mechanical lubricant! It also smells like crap.

[Edited on 9-8-18 by Abromination]

[Edited on 9-8-18 by Abromination]

--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
--------------
Sulaiman
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The 'oil' is kerosene, some old partially polymerised stuff that definitely has .
Nothing was pre-prepared, I just did it to see what will be required to do it 'properly'

Most of the corrosion is due to air, I undid the battery under kerosene,
even when oily (keroseney ?) a brief exposure to air blackens the surface.
Most of the foil remained shiny but I exposed the entire foil to air when I rolled it up to fit the test tube.
A little of the corrosion does seem due to 'stuff' in the kerosene.
(aldehydes, water, oxygen, nitrogen ?)

I initially stored the test tube upside down to keep the lithium below the kerosene,
but some small bubbles slowly formed
and I started to imagine a lithium/kerosene rocket

Edit : Corrected the aldehyde comment

[Edited on 10-8-2018 by Sulaiman]
Abromination
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 Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman The 'oil' is kerosene, some old partially polymerised stuff that definitely has some aldehydes based on reaction with NaOH. Nothing was pre-prepared, I just did it to see what will be required to do it 'properly' Most of the corrosion is due to air, I undid the battery under kerosene, even when oily (keroseney ?) a brief exposure to air blackens the surface. Most of the foil remained shiny but I exposed the entire foil to air when I rolled it up to fit the test tube. A little of the corrosion does seem due to 'stuff' in the kerosene. (aldehydes, water, oxygen, nitrogen ?) I initially stored the test tube upside down to keep the lithium below the kerosene, but some small bubbles slowly formed and I started to imagine a lithium/kerosene rocket

Ah, my bad. It looks a lot like lithium under vegetable oil! (Cause I was stupid and did it once.) Im glad that you tried with the kerosene and impressed at your devotion to disassembly under it! I found that you didnt have to untill you got to the point were you unroll the electrodes. Did you experience the rotten eggs smell emitting from the iron disulfide?

--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
--------------
Sulaiman
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I did not notice any smell at all other than kerosene.
(mostly done under kerosene in a 250ml Nalgene beaker, and I tried to avoid exposure
also, my sense of smell is not as acute as it used to be)

- using some of the kerosene that was contaminated with electrolyte for storage.

If someone wished to use paraffin wax then I think that would be almost as easy to clean off as kerosene,
but the elevated temperature would make corrosion by the atmosphere quicker,
I guess.

P.S. After removed from argon/oil sealed 1oz. sachets I also store sodium under kerosene,
as it seems to be more stable than the vegetable oil that I first tried

[Edited on 9-8-2018 by Sulaiman]
symboom
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I wraped mine around a copper pipe which gives it weight to push in down in the solvent. I find if i let the metal float it oxidizes quicker.how about butane does any one know if lithium sinks in butane .248 for butane and .543 for density of lithium the butane holds well in a soda bottle

Abromination
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 Quote: Originally posted by symboom I wraped mine around a copper pipe which gives it weight to push in down in the solvent. I find if i let the metal float it oxidizes quicker.how about butane does any one know if lithium sinks in butane .248 for butane and .543 for density of lithium the butane holds well in a soda bottle

Butane is a gas...

--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
--------------
symboom
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This is embarrassing yes butane is a gas i ment to say methyl ether but i dont know where you would get that

Sorry butane liquifyes onder pressure thats why i mentioned a soda bottle which is designed to hold pressure to keep the buane liquid only way to get the lithium out is by keeping it cold which is useful if you are making lithium hydride.thats how i store mine

Wish DMSO was more volitile and less dense because that would be perfect and it is a compound that is used in lithium batteries

Here is extracting lithium from lithium air button cell batteries

Just need to hydrogenate the tithium metal
And have lithium hydride

I think powered titanium should help this process and help keep the lithium exposed to the air. And it can form titanium hydride

[Edited on 10-8-2018 by symboom]

[Edited on 10-8-2018 by symboom]

Sulaiman
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Liquid butane from lighter refill cylinders is fairly easy to contain at RT
I use it as a dielectric in my high voltage probe,
filled once, never leaked, just a screw cap and a rubber seal.

Butt in this case I do not think that it is worth the added risk.
Deathunter88
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 Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers Why are the Energizer Li cells 1.8V? Most (all?) other Li cells are right around 3V.

I'm pretty sure it's because they use different chemistry, and hence the reason it contains lithium metal rather than just ions.
Abromination
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Quote: Originally posted by Deathunter88
 Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers Why are the Energizer Li cells 1.8V? Most (all?) other Li cells are right around 3V.

I'm pretty sure it's because they use different chemistry, and hence the reason it contains lithium metal rather than just ions.

No, they both do contain lithium metal but one is lithium and i want to say manganese dioxide and ammonium chloride and the 1.8 is carbon disulfide and something else. I don't know maybe both are carbon disulfide. But lithium is in both.

--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
--------------
morganbw
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Quote: Originally posted by Abromination
Quote: Originally posted by Deathunter88
 Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers Why are the Energizer Li cells 1.8V? Most (all?) other Li cells are right around 3V.

I'm pretty sure it's because they use different chemistry, and hence the reason it contains lithium metal rather than just ions.

No, they both do contain lithium metal but one is lithium and i want to say manganese dioxide and ammonium chloride and the 1.8 is carbon disulfide and something else. I don't know maybe both are carbon disulfide. But lithium is in both.

I am not deep into this thread but do be aware that lithium metal batteries vs lithium-ion batteries are two very different beasts.
The first allows you to pull lithium metal out directly, the second means that if you are not a wizard, you will get exactly zero lithium metal.
Abromination
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Quote: Originally posted by morganbw
Quote: Originally posted by Abromination
Quote: Originally posted by Deathunter88
 Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers Why are the Energizer Li cells 1.8V? Most (all?) other Li cells are right around 3V.

I'm pretty sure it's because they use different chemistry, and hence the reason it contains lithium metal rather than just ions.

No, they both do contain lithium metal but one is lithium and i want to say manganese dioxide and ammonium chloride and the 1.8 is carbon disulfide and something else. I don't know maybe both are carbon disulfide. But lithium is in both.

I am not deep into this thread but do be aware that lithium metal batteries vs lithium-ion batteries are two very different beasts.
The first allows you to pull lithium metal out directly, the second means that if you are not a wizard, you will get exactly zero lithium metal.

Good point. I am unfortunately not a wizard. I thought he was talking about the 3v lithium button batteries.

--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
--------------
symboom
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Wow thats alot of inquotes its pure lithium metal you can scrape it off with a screwdriver it acts like clay except when it is on fire.
It is really stuck to the inside casing atleast the casing holds the lithium under mineral oil.
Im surprised others dont use 3v lithium button batterys
Not much lithium but it is a great sample size
nail clipers can be used to pry open lithium button batteries takes some practice but it only takes a few seconds and tge lithium is out.

[Edited on 12-8-2018 by symboom]

Abromination
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 Quote: Originally posted by symboom Wow thats alot of inquotes its pure lithium metal you can scrape it off with a screwdriver it acts like clay except when it is on fire. It is really stuck to the inside casing atleast the casing holds the lithium under mineral oil. Im surprised others dont use 3v lithium button batterys Not much lithium but it is a great sample size nail clipers can be used to pry open lithium button batteries takes some practice but it only takes a few seconds and tge lithium is out. [Edited on 12-8-2018 by symboom]

Button batteries are the first kind I ever dismantled. Agreed, a good sample size.

--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
--------------
Sulaiman
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Although under oil in a test tube with a (not perfectly sealing) stopper,
my lithium sample shown at the top of this page is corroding away

I am glad that I kept the rest of the batteries intact

Would some kind person please suggest an easy interesting use for the
foil from one cell ?
or
a lithium salt suitable for storage and future use ?
fusso
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 Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman Although under oil in a test tube with a (not perfectly sealing) stopper, my lithium sample shown at the top of this page is corroding away I am glad that I kept the rest of the batteries intact Would some kind person please suggest an easy interesting use for the foil from one cell ? or a lithium salt suitable for storage and future use ?
Dismantle the cells just before you need it? Like making LDA, Li alkoxides & RLi?
Or make LiOH/Li2CO3?

CrimsonRed
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I remember getting some lithium out of a button battery and it was very exciting, I remember looking up the lithium content for each type of button cell and I ended up concluding that CR2032 (contains any where from 0.05g to 0.07g of lithium metal) was the most common and the most cost effective one but recently I found that you could buy a pack of 10 CR2477 (contains 0.25g to 0.30g) for about 6$on aliexpress which is very cost effective although you do have to wait for like 20-30 days for it to arrive, I might buy it Ubya International Hazard Posts: 1213 Registered: 23-11-2017 Location: Rome-Italy Member Is Offline Mood: I'm a maddo scientisto!!!  Quote: Originally posted by CrimsonRed I remember getting some lithium out of a button battery and it was very exciting, I remember looking up the lithium content for each type of button cell and I ended up concluding that CR2032 (contains any where from 0.05g to 0.07g of lithium metal) was the most common and the most cost effective one but recently I found that you could buy a pack of 10 CR2477 (contains 0.25g to 0.30g) for about 6$ on aliexpress which is very cost effective although you do have to wait for like 20-30 days for it to arrive, I might buy it

30$for 1g doesn't seem that cost effective... you can buy it on ebay 15.50$ for 20g

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CrimsonRed
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Well when you get roughly 2.5 to 3 grams for 6$, 6$ for a pack of 10 cells and I've seen a few people who bought lithium from ebay which came oxidized and stuff, also I said It was cost effective when I found out that cr2032 was the cheapest at the time a few years ago as they were the cheapest (I think like 2-3$for a pack of 10 or something like that) but not any more now that they have the CR2477 selling in a pack of 10 for only 6$ and each cell atleast contains a minimum of 0.25 grams. Also they are on aliexpress just so you know.

I don't think I can buy lithium metal directly from ebay without getting into some trouble unless they mask the lithium into some other item so that it can pass through customs easily. It did happen with my magnesium rods that I ordered from dhgate that were labelled as clothes.

[Edited on 9-12-2018 by CrimsonRed]
Ubya
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even if half of the lithium from ebay was oxide it would still be better than extracting it from batteries. as for problems with customs i didn't know lithium could be a problem, maybe because it could be used to make meth

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CrimsonRed
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well the thing is its a 50 / 50 that u even get some form of lithium, half the time its not even lithium and u can find some posts that question ebay seller's quality, i think the batteries are a safer alternative
Ubya
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if you buy from ebay and get scammed you can ask a refund, maybe the seller will cooperate, if not just ask ebay directly, i got a refund for table salt sold as potassium iodide, the seller proposed to refund me just 2$out of 6$ that i paid, i asked ebay and got full refund in less than a day

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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Chemistry in General » Problems with Lithium Batteries Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues