| Pages:
1
..
27
28
29
30
31
..
43 |
aliced25
Hazard to Others
Posts: 262
Registered: 31-7-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  | Yes, S.C> I figured that was what you meant. As it happens SiCl4 is rather easy to purchase, and not *too* expensive at $100 a kg. With a price
like that I would not consider making it. After all I am paying a lot more for oxalyl chloride (a LOT more) and while I could make that, I don't
bother.
The stoichiometry of SiCl4 in reaction with anhydrous NaOAc makes it attraactive, one mol SiCl4 plus 4 mols acetate giving theoretically 2 mols
anhydride and in practice, 1.5 mols.
That helps compensate for the cost of reagent.
Si2OCl6 on the other hand seems to be unobtainium commercially.
Pity that SiCl4 is not more generally applicable to the preperation of acyl chlorides and anhydrides.
Anyway thanks for all the assistance. |
Attachment: Chen.etal.Silica.Nanotubes.by.Templated.Thermolysis.of.Silicon.Tetraacetate.pdf (1.9MB)
This file has been downloaded 827 times
Attachment: Lanning.Preparation.and.Properties.of.Silicon.Tetrapropionate.pdf (127kB)
This file has been downloaded 832 times
Attachment: Lanning.Silicon.Tetrabenzoate.pdf (210kB)
This file has been downloaded 727 times
Attachment: Schuyten.Weaver.Reid.Preparation.of.Substituted.Acetoxy.Silanes.pdf (381kB)
This file has been downloaded 917 times
Attachment: Friedel.Ladenburg.Ueber.das.Intermediare.Anhydrid.von.Kieselsaure.und.Essigsaure.pdf (183kB)
This file has been downloaded 806 times
Attachment: Chan.Wong.Silicon.Tetrachloride.as.a.Coupling.Reagent.for.Amide.Formation.pdf (270kB)
This file has been downloaded 756 times
From a Knight of the Realm: "Animated movies are not just for kids, they're also for adults who do a lot of drugs." Sir Paul McCartney
|
|
|
NiCoLi_BrLiNTe
Harmless
Posts: 18
Registered: 22-5-2013
Location: just outside the walls of Warwick castle
Member Is Offline
Mood: perplexed
|
|
So far I've only read the first two pages of this thread, so forgive me if I'm bringing up something thats already been dealt with. While it seems the
use of sulphuric acid as a dehydrant is unlikely to work when simply mixed with glacial acetic acid, is it possible that SO3, bubbled through the
acetic acid could be more effective? Potassium peroxydisulphate, when mixed with conc. H2SO4 and heated strongly, decomposes and gives of SO3.
|
|
|
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I think sulfur dichloride could be used to dehydrate acetic acid.
4 AcOH + 2 SCl2 --> 2 Ac2O + SO2 + S + 4 HCl
It is common knowledge that PCl3 reacts with glacial acetic acid to form acetyl chloride, so I see no reason why SCl2 could not similarly dehydrate it
much more easily. Sulfur dichloride can act as a fairly strong dehydrating agent, with water it vigorously reacts and disproportionates into elemental
sulfur and sulfur dioxide.
[Edited on 11-7-2013 by AndersHoveland]
|
|
|
NiCoLi_BrLiNTe
Harmless
Posts: 18
Registered: 22-5-2013
Location: just outside the walls of Warwick castle
Member Is Offline
Mood: perplexed
|
|
Thanks, S2Cl2 is fairly strait forward to make isn't it?
|
|
|
White Yeti
National Hazard
Posts: 816
Registered: 20-7-2011
Location: Asperger's spectrum
Member Is Offline
Mood: delocalized
|
|
What about making acetyl chloride
from glacial acetic acid
and cyanuric chloride,
and then reacting acetyl chloride
with glacial acetic acid?
"Ja, Kalzium, das ist alles!" -Otto Loewi
|
|
|
Metacelsus
International Hazard
Posts: 2531
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Boston, MA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble
|
|
From reading this thread, acetyl chloride is usually reacted with anhydrous sodium acetate, not acetic acid. I may be wrong, but I think this is
because acetate is a better nucleophile than acetic acid, and the reaction goes by nucleophilic acyl substitution.
|
|
|
White Yeti
National Hazard
Posts: 816
Registered: 20-7-2011
Location: Asperger's spectrum
Member Is Offline
Mood: delocalized
|
|
Yes, that's right. An added benefit is that sodium chloride is much easier to deal with than hydrogen chloride.
Sodium acetate is also much cheaper than glacial acetic acid.
You'd just have to stick the hydrate in the oven first to get the anhydrous salt.
You get the general idea though, and cyanuric chloride is pretty cheap.
One thing I'm not sure about, is if there are any restrictions on the purchase of cyanuric chloride in the United States.
"Ja, Kalzium, das ist alles!" -Otto Loewi
|
|
|
kristofvagyok
National Hazard
Posts: 659
Registered: 6-4-2012
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Any references for that? Looks like a
really weak idea.
Also, important to note that SO2 is really well soluble in AcOH and in Ac2O, so it would be a great task to get out the SO2 from this mixture.
Another question: how would you get rid of the thioacetic acid what would form in high percent?
There is an article what describes the preparation of Ac2O from different acetate salts and thionyl chloride, but it's definitely not the same as
AndersHoveland mentioned....
Patent DE275846
Fortschr. Teerfarbenfabr. Verw. Industriezweige, vol. 11, p. 1191
I have a blog where I post my pictures from my work: http://labphoto.tumblr.com/
-Pictures from chemistry, check it out(:
"You can’t become a chemist and expect to live forever." |
|
|
DrSchnufflez
Hazard to Others
Posts: 114
Registered: 22-1-2013
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
There is a similar method to the sulfur dichloride method listed in this link.
It uses anhydrous sodium acetate and sulfur monochloride to form a sulfur linked molecule that decomposes when heated to give acetic anhydride.
In response to the question posed by white yeti, I worked with sulfur chlorides on the weekend so three days ago.
[Edited on 14-8-2013 by DrSchnufflez]
[Edited on 14-8-2013 by DrSchnufflez]
[Edited on 14-8-2013 by DrSchnufflez]
‘I’m free and easy-I’ll see you there!’
- Our Sunshine, Paul Kelly
|
|
|
White Yeti
National Hazard
Posts: 816
Registered: 20-7-2011
Location: Asperger's spectrum
Member Is Offline
Mood: delocalized
|
|
why are all of you spending so much time asking whether or not something is possible?
The real question is whether or not it's worth doing.
Hiding behind references is just as counterproductive, even if such an absurd procedure worked, when was the last time any of you worked with SCl2 or
S2Cl2?
I would guess that Anders has never worked with sulfur dichloride--being the armchair synthetic chemist that he is--and none of you would look forward
to handling it, that is, if you could even buy it at all.
Don't bother considering procedures that are not even within your means. A methodical scientist will work with what he has, not what he doesn't have.
"Ja, Kalzium, das ist alles!" -Otto Loewi
|
|
|
Waffles SS
Fighter
Posts: 998
Registered: 7-12-2009
Member Is Offline
|
|
Essigsäureanhydrid
Acetic Anhydride from S2Cl2(Include picture)
http://www.versuchschemie.de/topic,16159,-Essigs%E4ureanhydr...
[Edited on 14-8-2013 by Waffles SS]
|
|
|
Mesa
Hazard to Others
Posts: 264
Registered: 2-7-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
An unabashed necro-post, but this caught my attention when researching something completely unrelated.
I believe the 'pyrosulfate + acetate salt' dry distillation method has been brought up previously in this thread, but in case it hasn't, here is a
relevant patent:
http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US1430304-0...
I recall one of the main reasons why this was seen as impractical was due to the toll it took on glassware, and the high temperatures required for the
reaction to occur.
A procedure I recently came across to produce a somewhat manipulatable gaseous hydrochloric acid uses a microwave to heat sodium bisulfate and sodium
chloride:
http://mattson.creighton.edu/MicrowaveMethod/ (Near the bottom)
I can't find any information regarding the molecular dipole moment of the pyrosulfate, but I assume it would not be so different from NaHSO4. It
should therefore be fairly easy to use the method from the patent, using a modified microwave, to quite easily generate assorted anhydrides from their
salts.
|
|
|
CMOS
Harmless
Posts: 14
Registered: 27-2-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
someone tried that russian patent(from acetamide)? All I got was glacial acetic acid, and acetamide left in reaction flask. I tried freezing out to
check if there is even a little bit of Ac2O but all of it froze :/ (aa should stay liquid) (and there was like no fraction near 139, it just started
running from 120 up, and milkish smoke appeared(probably acetamide), so I stopped distillation)
|
|
|
Waffles SS
Fighter
Posts: 998
Registered: 7-12-2009
Member Is Offline
|
|
That Russian patent is bullshit!
I tried it many times and got no Ac2O
|
|
|
zenosx
Hazard to Others
Posts: 188
Registered: 7-7-2012
Location: East TN / Near Oak Ridge
Member Is Offline
Mood: Awaiting Results....
|
|
I apologize if this has been posted before, but this is a rather long thread I had to UTFSE for a bit to find surprisingly.(EDIT: first sticky in
orgranic should have been obvious  )
Anyway...This was found @ http://web.mit.edu/semenko/Public/Military%20Manuals/RogueSc...
Not really the most journalistic site 
(QUOTE FROM SITE)
Synthesis: Acetic anhydride is a very handy organic compound that has fallen into ill repute thanks to the drug dealers. It is technically a
watched chemical, but you will only have to answer questions at gunpoint if you buy over 250 gallons. Even so, you will most likely be put on The List
if you buy any, and you will have to come up with a bunch of explanations as to what you are going to do with it. Acetic anhydride is very corrosive
and must be kept away from moisture, as it will decompose into acetic acid.
TLDR; Actual Syn
Into a 200-mL Florence flask, add 70 g of finely pulverized, anhydrous sodium acetate. Set the flask up for simple distillation, instead of a
thermometer in the top of the flask use an addition funnel. Slowly add, by dropwise addition, 45.5 mL of acetyl chloride from the addition funnel.
After half of the acetyl chloride has been added, stop the addition and stir the reaction mix with a glass stirring rod. Afterwards, continue the
addition the rest of the way. If at any point during the addition some material should distill over, pour it back into the reaction flask and decrease
the rate of addition to prevent this. After the addition is complete, remove the addition funnel, stop up the flask, and distill with flame or hot
plate. The crude acetic anhydride thus obtained needs to be purified by distillation. Set up for a simple distillation, add 3 g of finely pulverized,
anhydrous sodium acetate to the reaction flask, and then pour in the crude acetic anhydride. The sodium acetate will convert any remaining acetyl
chloride into the anhydride. The receiving flask should be under a water shower for cooling. Place a large funnel (a cheap plastic one will work fine)
under the flask with a tube leading to the sink, pour cold water over the top of the receiving flask. The receiving flask can also be held directly
under the faucet in the sink. Commence the distillation; the yield should be about 50 g of pure acetic anhydride.
(END QUOTE)
If anyone tries this I would be curious. I don't have any acetyl chloride ATM, and I don't have time with classes to work it out theoretically, but
thought I would post it in case it hadn't previously been mentioned.
If this is redundant, my apologies.
[Edited on 15-11-2013 by zenosx]
A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy?
Albert Einstein
|
|
|
Crowfjord
Hazard to Others
Posts: 390
Registered: 20-1-2013
Location: Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ever so slowly crystallizing...
|
|
Yes, that method (anhydride from acetate and acetyl chloride) has been discussed to death. It has also been repeatedly pointed out that unless the
anhydride is needed specifically (like as a solvent or something) it is pretty pointless to make acetic anhydride from the chloride, as the latter is
already a more convenient and atom efficient acetylation agent.
Apology accepted
|
|
|
DubaiAmateurRocketry
National Hazard
Posts: 841
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: LA, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: In research
|
|
Can I just do acetic acid + P2O5 ?
I have no idea how to separate acetic anhydride and phosphoric acid though, are they miscible ?
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4278
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
I don't know if that would work, but if it did, acetic anhydride is surely a lot more volatile than phosphoric acid. It would be a high temperature
distillation (about 140 C), but possible.
[Edited on 17-12-2013 by DraconicAcid]
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
TheChemiKid
Hazard to Others
Posts: 493
Registered: 5-8-2013
Location: ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
This may have been asked already, but this thread is so long, I can't find it.
Can acetic anhydride be synthesized by dehydration of acetic acid with CrO3?
When the police come
\( * O * )/ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
|
|
|
Crowfjord
Hazard to Others
Posts: 390
Registered: 20-1-2013
Location: Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ever so slowly crystallizing...
|
|
If I recall correctly, attempts failed using phosphorus pentoxide, which just gave char. Not sure if chromium trioxide was ever mentioned.
|
|
|
DubaiAmateurRocketry
National Hazard
Posts: 841
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: LA, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: In research
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Crowfjord | | If I recall correctly, attempts failed using phosphorus pentoxide, which just gave char. Not sure if chromium trioxide was ever mentioned.
|
umm why did it fail using P2O5 ?
|
|
|
bfesser
Resident Wikipedian
Posts: 2114
Registered: 29-1-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Try reading through the thread.
|
|
|
TheChemiKid
Hazard to Others
Posts: 493
Registered: 5-8-2013
Location: ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If the Chromium Trioxide method works, I think the reaction would be 2 C2H4O2 + CrO3 ⇒
(C2H3O)2O + H2CrO4
I am worried that the Chromic Acid would decompose back into Chromium Trioxide and Water and the Water could react with the Acetic Anhydride to form
Acetic Acid again.
Is this a valid method?
When the police come
\( * O * )/ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
|
|
|
Nicodem
Super Moderator
Posts: 4230
Registered: 28-12-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by TheChemiKid | If the Chromium Trioxide method works, I think the reaction would be 2 C2H4O2 + CrO3 ⇒
(C2H3O)2O + H2CrO4
I am worried that the Chromic Acid would decompose back into Chromium Trioxide and Water and the Water could react with the Acetic Anhydride to form
Acetic Acid again.
Is this a valid method? |
What kind of a question is that? You ask and make claims at the same time, but give no reference. First give the reference for this preparation (which
to me makes no sense chemically), so that we can read the article or patent and make sense of it.
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
|
|
|
TheChemiKid
Hazard to Others
Posts: 493
Registered: 5-8-2013
Location: ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I was asking whether anyone knew IF that worked, not that it did. I was speculating about the problems with it, but saying these would or would not
happen. By now, I have done as much research as I have been able to, and it seems this will not work.
This is because chromium trioxide is used as an oxidant in a solution of acetic acid. Here is a link.
[Edited on 12-29-2013 by TheChemiKid]
When the police come
\( * O * )/ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
..
27
28
29
30
31
..
43 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
