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Author: Subject: Silver acetylide/nitrate
moonclub
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[*] posted on 22-12-2005 at 10:48


Ag2C2.AgNO3 is better than Ag2C2 - L. I. Bagal. Do not use only AgNO3, it's better to add some HNO3, or if you are using silver + HNO3 - just add some water. It's working good, and I think it's better than organic peroxides. I have some NaN3, so may be soon will try to compare Ag2C2.AgNO3, Ag2C2 and Pb(N3)2.



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[*] posted on 22-12-2005 at 12:39


I second that.
Only make AgC2 for curiosity purpose only. It is not very powerfull or brisant, half a gram of it once failed to break the glass dish it was on, but it will hurt your ears for sure! ;) I doubt if it could even be used to detonate most HE's.
And keep it in the dark as it is, unlike the AgC2*AgNO3 complex, very sensitive to light, and it will darken quickly by the formation of elementry silver

If you're planning to use it as a primary you are indeed better of with the AgC2*AgNO3 complex. It is stated that it is less impact sensitive than Mercury fulminate and less friction sensitive than Lead azide. 100 mg or less will suffice for PETN in a compound detonator.
If you want to used it on it's own, it will become very expensive as you need 2 grams for a #8 detonator. It's much more stable than organic peroxides however. I still have a gram or so, which is kept under destilled water for over a year now, and it is still as white as the day it was made.

The only thing tricky about it's synthesis is the temperature as you bubble the acetylene through the silvernitrate/nitric acid mix. The first batches I made without heating seemed fine at first but darkened after a couple of weeks, @60-75 deg C. I got a stable product, and @90+ deg C. I found the product to darken quickly again. A total of 10% of nitric acid wil suffice, but more is not a problem.

[Edited on 22-12-2005 by nitro-genes]

[Edited on 22-12-2005 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 22-12-2005 at 14:43


So, temperature control is vital to the synthesis?

Also, AgC2*AgNO3 complex?

[Edited on 22-12-2005 by Dream of the iris]




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[*] posted on 23-12-2005 at 06:02


Not for AgC2, just bubble acetylene through a silver nitrate solution at room temperature. Cover your reaction vessel in aluminium foil to protect it from light else you will make a finely divided silver suspension mainly.
No need to add ammonia, bubbling through water is much cleaner and quicker. Though I' have read that precipitation from only water also yields a AgC2*AgNO3 complex, I found the product thus obtained not to resemble the nitric acid precipitated complex, which is much less light sensitive...

For the AgC2*AgNO3 from nitric acid there is also no need for close temperature control. Just use hot water from the tap to warm the AgNO3/nitric acid mix while bubbling the acetylene through. Dry on a clean ceramic or glass dish, since the precence of organic material will make it more sensitive to light. Also avoid contact with copper...
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[*] posted on 23-12-2005 at 17:00


Ok, I get it now. I tried Brainfeverts synthesis and got good results, but, uh, the holes in my filter were too big so I lost all my product :o

Oh well, I'll try again later. At least I know I made it :p




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[*] posted on 30-12-2005 at 01:23


holes in the filter???
u can just use a paper tissue and it will be fine!




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[*] posted on 30-12-2005 at 17:24


I did that yesterday, but most of it is stuck on the filter :p So I'll just wait till it drys.



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[*] posted on 20-8-2006 at 21:48


What is still not clear to me is the actual structure of silver acetylide and the double salt. Can anyone shed some light on this?

For that matter, is the mechanism of the formation of either of these known? If so what is it?
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[*] posted on 22-8-2006 at 06:54


The only primary to my knowlege that does not produce gases. Plus the references are clouded with issues concerning the two methods (ammonia or HNO3) that MAY
produce differing results. The structure of the crystal differs from one method to
another as well.

The term double salts may be linked to the free silver nitrate existant in
the primary. However the most common recording of VoD is about 3500.

"The customary precipitate formed by interaction of
acetylene with aqueous silver nitrate solutions has been
considered to have the formula Ag2C2.AgXOat having a
crystal form of fine needles and crosses. We find this
conclusion to be true for only dilute solutions. As the
silver nitrate concentration of the solution is raised above
about 10%, there is a tendency for rhombohedral crystals
to form and above about 25% silver nitrate concentration
the rhombs form to the exclusion of the needles. We
have found these rhombs to have the formula of
Ag2C2*AgNO3 or Ag3C2NO3 "

Background material can be found through:
Federoff, Encyclopedia of Explosives Vol.1 * Kast * Taylor/Rinkenbach




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[*] posted on 3-9-2006 at 07:38


I was looking over Brainfever's method and apparently organic material causes double salts to decompose. From my understanding organic means the material contains carbon? I am not too sure on what the definition of organic material is, could someone please help me out with this?

Well, if double salts does decompose from organic material( containing carbon from my understanding), and many explosives contain carbon. Does this mean a compound blasting cap with and "organic" explosive as the base charge (I am currently using ETN as my base charge, with acetone peroxide as the primary) will cause any double salts in contact with it to decompose? I am slightly concerned with decomposing double salts, although I only load primaries and finish the caps right before use them.

If double salts does decompose, what does it decompose into, and would decomposing double salts be dangerous in a cap because of the base charge?
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[*] posted on 9-9-2006 at 07:21


From that perspective (the use of peroxcides) I WOULD have some concern. That makes sense. But if the use is immediate after construction that would of course make it a non-issue.
But frankly if you are using an ETN base there is NO reason why you need the peroxcide. The hot methanol re-crystalization of ETN will produce needles that are extremely sensitive to detonation and silver acetylid should have no problem at all kicking it off.




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[*] posted on 9-9-2006 at 09:31


mrtran1224, you don't need to worry about the SA to decompose with organic material. I changed from peroxides to SA/MHN as primary for a while. The primary is a 30:70 mixture of MHN/SA and the base charge is MHN alone. The MHN improves the power of the mixture as it gives off gases whereas SA doesn't give any gas, only heat.

The only thing you should avoid are acidic conditions, these will librate the acetylene in the compond over time and leave the acid salt of silver. So the nitrate ester should be washed well.

The primary mixture (a few grams) is still in a plastic tube in my shelf and is as gray as at the time I synthetised it. All caps I made with it worked great, the caps are quite small (5mm in dia and 4cm long) , the primary mixture is in the first 5mm.
Since I know this wonderful primary I wont mess with peroxides any more for sure.



[Edited on 9-9-2006 by hinz]
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[*] posted on 19-4-2007 at 12:13


I have been trying to find out recently but have not been able to find any information about it.
I am storing my silver acetylide in a test tube under water and I was wondering if extreme temp. Of up to 45 degrees centigrade in my lab could make this dangerous (i.e. spontaneous detonation etc.)




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[*] posted on 19-4-2007 at 21:55


All acetylides react with water, silver only slowly because of its insolubility, wheras sodium acetylide will reduce water to hydrogen.

I doubt a slightly increased temp will affect stability of that compound, but that is a gut feeling, not based on any readings.

For extra precautions, a block of stryofoam can have holes bored in it for testtube of such material, so if for whatever reason it went off, shrapnel would be contained.




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[*] posted on 20-4-2007 at 05:06


A block of Styrofoam is a good idea. Frankly I have seen it stored under a _mix_ of ethanol and water for many months with no mishaps. The guy used vodka and the material dried quickly because of that. You could poor off the water and switch; it would make access faster, etc. Realistically I don't believe 45 C is high enough to present any issue other than evaporation.
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[*] posted on 12-1-2012 at 15:14
copper acetylide tin nitate double salt


Just a thought, it might be interesting to see if tin(II) nitrate can form an adduct salt with copper acetylide (Cu2C2).
The compound might have a composition similar to Sn(NO3)2*Cu2C2

Quote:

Basic Stannous Nitrate, with the formula Sn3(OH)4(NO3)2, is a white crystalline substance which is slowly oxidized upon exposure to air, and partially decomposes in pH nuetral water. It is a high explosive, detonating (with an concurrent shower of sparks) when strongly rubbed, hit with a hammer, or heated above 100degC. Thermal decomposition proceeds at 125degC, resulting in formation of SnO2, nitric oxide, and water.

It can be prepared by dissolving tin in dilute nitric acid, then reacting with sodium carbonate, or alternatively, by reaction of tin with a solution of cupric nitrate.

Attempting to evaporate an aqueous solution of Sn(NO3)2 to dryness only results in decomposition, which can in some instances be violent. The decomposition products are mainly SnO2, nitrous oxide, and hydroxylamine, with other oxides of nitrogen also produced.


When AgNO3 reacts with acetylene, a portion of the nitrate ions are displaced and an insoluble basic salt precipitates. Similarly, when Sn(NO3)2 reacts with sodium carbonate, an insoluble basic salt precipitates.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=948&am...

Quote:

The composition of commonly prepared "silver acetylide" is actually closer to Ag2C2·6AgNO3; forming the Ag2C2·AgNO3 compound requires temperatures above 80degC.



In a similar example of this type of reaction, lead(II) nitrate reacts with aqueous ammonia to precipitate insoluble basic lead nitrate, Pb2O(NO3)2, (which is not explosive).

So one could be inclined to think that perhaps a similar type of "basic" salt could be formed from Ag2C2 and Sn(NO3)2. But actually making this could be problematic, because AgNO3 solution would probably oxidize the Sn+2 ions. Perhaps Cu2C2 could be used instead of the AgC2.

One could react copper(I) oxide with concentrated ammonium hydroxide solution to dissolve it. Unfortunately, the reaction of acid with the copper(I) hydroxide ammonia complex will simply cause it to disproportionate into Cu+2 and elemental copper. The Cu+1 state is also stabilized by chloride ions (such as from hydrochloric acid) but in this case that would contaminate the reaction.

Quote:

Copper(I) oxide dissolves in concentrated ammonia solution to form the colourless complex [Cu(NH3)2]+, which easily oxidizes in air to the blue [Cu(NH3)4(H2O)2]2+.

Reaction of copper(I) oxide with dilute sulfuric acid will result in the formation of metallic copper,
Cu2O + H2SO4 --> CuSO4 + Cu + H2O

A solution of copper sulfate combined with sodium chloride can dissolve metallic copper,
Cu[+2] + Cu + 4 Cl[-] --> 2 CuCl2[-]



Some Sn(NO3)2 would be added to the copper(I) hydroxide ammonia complex solution, then acetylene would be bubbled in. Hopefully an interesting explosive product would precipitate out.


also found an interesting research paper in the Science Madness Library that describes an explosive double salt hydrate with the composition Ag2C2*(2)AgClO4*(2)H2O
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:HH8AU-a-yjAJ:...

[Edited on 12-1-2012 by AndersHoveland]
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