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bilcksneatff
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hydrogen and chlorine
Is it possible to combine H2 and Cl2 to form HCl gas? Or is it stupid and completely unsafe?
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Phosphor-ing
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It is possible, but...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_chloride
... messing with pure Chlorine gas is not in any way safe.
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evil_lurker
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Both chlorine and oxygen are very fond of hydrogen... put them together and its likely their relationship will kick off with a bang.
IIRC, the only difference is all it takes with chlorine is a little bit of light to initiate the reaction.
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in
beer.
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BromicAcid
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Check out Tacho's attempt at combining elemental hydrogen with chlorine for a good read:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2154
As has been stated before it can be done, hydrogen readily reacts with chlorine in the presence of sunlight, explosively (or almost so). It is
difficult to react the two at a controllable rate at the very least without having cylinders of H<sub>2</sub> and
Cl<sub>2</sub>.
It is not stupid so much as it is inefficient and it is only as unsafe as your setup, however I would recommend against it unless you already had in
your possession a setup to accomplish this and available tanks of hydrogen and chlorine. As for other methods to make HCl they are covered around
this forum.
Best of luck though if you do decide to go through with this method 
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trilobite
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Here's a preparation of dry HBr from elements:
http://orgsyn.org/orgsyn/orgsyn/prepContent.asp?prep=cv2p033...
Obviously you'd have to change the setup a bit.
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bilcksneatff
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Won't Cl2 replace Br in HBr?
2HBr + Cl2 --> 2HCl + Br2
| Quote: | Originally posted by BromicAcid
It is not stupid so much as it is inefficient and it is only as unsafe as your setup, however I would recommend against it unless you already had in
your possession a setup to accomplish this and available tanks of hydrogen and chlorine. As for other methods to make HCl they are covered around
this forum.
Best of luck though if you do decide to go through with this method
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Your saying that it's a bad idea to put the H2 and Cl2 into a chamber together, you have to slowly add them together.
Would exposing it to extremely dim light slow the reaction down?
[Edited on 21-11-2007 by bilcksneatff]
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Nerro
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Probably the heat from the reaction is enough to sustain the reaction at a pretty violent rate.
Using a torch-like apparatus should do the trick, you just have to find a way to cool the HCl gas somehow.
Isn't it more practical to just add sulfuric acid to NaCl and lead the HCl through conc. H2SO4? Works for me...
Pro's: Cheaper and safer
con: not quite as cool
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bilcksneatff
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I lile the H2 + Cl2 method because I can make both from NaCl solution by electrolysis. I think NaCl solution would be less expensive than the H2SO4 +
NaCl method. If I would try to make HBr instead, I could make H2 and Br2 from NaBr.
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solo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Nerro
Probably the heat from the reaction is enough to sustain the reaction at a pretty violent rate.
Using a torch-like apparatus should do the trick, you just have to find a way to cool the HCl gas somehow.
Isn't it more practical to just add sulfuric acid to NaCl and lead the HCl through conc. H2SO4? Works for me...
Pro's: Cheaper and safer
con: not quite as cool |
Is the purpose of channeling HCl through H2SO4 to dry the gas? since adding aquous HCl to sulfuric acid will produce HCl gas......?.........solo
It's better to die on your feet, than live on your knees....Emiliano Zapata.
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bilcksneatff
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Does chlorine dissolve in water? If it does, can I just bubble hydrogen through the Cl2 solution to get HCl?
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Phosphor-ing
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@solo Yes, the purpose of bubbling the HCl(g) through (conc)H2SO4 is to remove the last of the water.
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bilcksneatff
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Sorry about all of the questions, but would sodium bisulfate react with salt to form sodium sulfate and HCl?
NaHSO4 + NaCl --> Na2SO4 + HCl
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woelen
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This works, but it requires fairly strong heating (200 C or so).
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bilcksneatff
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| Quote: | Originally posted by woelen
This works, but it requires fairly strong heating (200 C or so). |
Guess it's not very practical, then.
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Maya
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....Does chlorine dissolve in water? If it does, can I just bubble hydrogen through the Cl2 solution to get HCl?....
Yes, Cl2 does dissolve in water, you will get a solution of chlorine as well as HCl but you will also get hypochlorous acid as well, HOCl
[Edited on 21-11-2007 by Maya]
[Edited on 21-11-2007 by Maya]
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12AX7
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*Cough* he said hydrogen, a reducing agent.
You may have trouble with the hydrogen gas though. A platinum catalyst would certainly suffice to get it to react, although it seems odd to me that
you might place a precious metal in an increasingly acidic, oxidizing and complexing solution like that...
Alternately, you can bubble the chlorine into a cathode cell, reducing it to chloride. Course you get more anode byproduct, which might be chlorine
or oxygen or something to that effect.
Tim
[Edited on 11-21-2007 by 12AX7]
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not_important
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Chlorine + HCl + water is going to chew up platinum (or gold), I suspect that sparks or light in the blue-violet end of the spectrum is best; think
mercury vapour lamp.
Keeping the H2 + Cl2 diluted with an inert (N2) gas might solve the explosion problem.
In a simple electrolysis cell the formation of NaOH is going to reduce the production of gaseous chlorine - see "chlorate cell". Industrial cells are
designed to keep the NaOH from reaching the anode region, the diaphragm cell is the type of design best suited to amateur implementation. Wikipedia
does a decent job describing the cells.
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12AX7
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Ah yes, chlorine species don't reduce well under ordinary cathode conditions. Go figure!
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chloric1
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Accident
Back in 2004, I constructed an electrolytic chlorine cell based on the use of saturated brine with HCl added. I did not have many amps and the
chlorine evolved slowly. My attempt at separating the positive and negative electrode compartments was in vain. On disconnecting my clamps a spark
was formed and a loud bang ensued. Ever since, I ALWAYS unplug power supply before removing clamps! Oddly no rupturing or other damage was noted. It
seemed that the mixture actually imploded! Very strange the reaction of
hydrogen and chlorine. Obviously this is not the way to obtain HCl but more importantly the reaction is more academic in its attributed.
[Edited on 11/22/2007 by chloric1]
Fellow molecular manipulator
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franklyn
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http://www.ucc.ie/academic/chem/dolchem/html/comp/hcl.html
http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/Encyclopedia.asp?GasID=17
NOTE you must copy this URL and paste into the address bar
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tumadre
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A little off topic, but what would be the upper pressure limit for safely storing a styrometric mixture of hydrogen and oxygen.
I know it lignites at 530-585 C
so would it be safe to store it at a pressure where the gas molecules have as much energy as they do at 530 C and 1 atmosphere?
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bilcksneatff
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I was glancingat my book of elements, and I found this interesting:
"When additional refining is necessary, bromine gas is mixed with sulfur dioxide and forced up through a cylinder that has water running down the
inside surface. The gasses react with the water to produce hydrobromic and sulfuric acids:
SO2 + Br2 + 2H2O --> 2HBr + H2SO4"
This is from http://www.ucc.ie/academic/chem/dolchem/html/comp/hcl.html
"When Chlorine Water, (i.e. a solution of Chlorine gas, in Water) in a flask inverted in a basin of the same liquid is exposed to bright sunlight, the
Chlorine, is decomposed and a solution of Hypochlorous Acid, remains.
H2O + Cl2 ==> HCl + HClO
The Hypochlorous Acid, is not very stable and the solution readily decomcomposes, especially when exposed to sunlight, yielding Oxygen,
2 HClO ==> 2 HCl + O2"
[Edited on 23-11-2007 by bilcksneatff]
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Jdurg
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| Quote: | Originally posted by tumadre
A little off topic, but what would be the upper pressure limit for safely storing a styrometric mixture of hydrogen and oxygen.
I know it lignites at 530-585 C
so would it be safe to store it at a pressure where the gas molecules have as much energy as they do at 530 C and 1 atmosphere?
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I don't think there is ANY safe way to store a stoichiometric mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen. Basically, you're asking if you can safely store a
perfect chemically balanced mixture of a strong oxidizer with a fairly good reducer under pressure.
I just simply wouldn't try that at all. There's a reason why the space shuttles separate their fuel and oxidizers and don't store them premixed in
one container.
Just think what would happen if somebody opened the valve on that container anywhere near a flame. Or, if you accidentally tried to use the tank as
an "all in one flame source".
\"A real fart is beefy, has a density greater than or equal to the air surrounding it, consists of the unmistakable scent of broccoli, and usually
requires wiping afterwards.\"
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not_important
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jdurg...
I just simply wouldn't try that at all. There's a reason why the space shuttles separate their fuel and oxidizers and don't store them premixed in
one container.
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While there are other reasons, as I recall the melting point of oxygen is some 35 degrees above the boiling point of hydrogen. Pumping slush can be
difficult to do, and getting a uniform composition might prove difficult considering the differences in specific gravity.
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evil_lurker
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Or you had just a tiny bit of static electricity... or you had flashback... in that case you'd basically be dealing with a very large bomb... a bomb
contained inside a steel container that would increase the power of the explosion and send shrapnel everywhere.
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in
beer.
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