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Author: Subject: Mercury Sulfide Being Sold as Medicine for Children
VSEPR_VOID
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 05:28
Mercury Sulfide Being Sold as Medicine for Children


https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-30g-Natural-Powdered-Cinnabar-Pi...

"can be placed under the pillow or bed sheets, can play a sedative role, so that children can sleep safely, no longer crying.
Wearing brave friends, available cinnabar will brave, will be able to Lucky.
Driving a friend, you can hang in the car cinnabar, can concentrate on the spirit, to avoid illegal transactions were open, all the way safe."

I was looking for a good price online to use as a base for selling some cinnabar powder I have and found that.




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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 05:32


Quote: Originally posted by VSEPR_VOID  
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-30g-Natural-Powdered-Cinnabar-Pi...

"can be placed under the pillow or bed sheets, can play a sedative role, so that children can sleep safely, no longer crying.
Wearing brave friends, available cinnabar will brave, will be able to Lucky.
Driving a friend, you can hang in the car cinnabar, can concentrate on the spirit, to avoid illegal transactions were open, all the way safe."

I was looking for a good price online to use as a base for selling some cinnabar powder I have and found that.


i'm pretty sure they are going to sleep for a very long time

[Edited on 2-10-2018 by Ubya]





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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 05:54


Yikes. Even if it's a good deal I wouldn't buy from them. I don't want to support that sort of thing, plus I bet they aren't very rigorous in checking their "cinnabar" source. Might as well just be red sand.

On the other hand you "will be able to Lucky" with it, so that's pretty compelling...
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 06:25


Selling a highly toxic mercury compound aimed at children seems criminally irresponsible!

I've emailed my country's Health and Safety to inform them, out of concern.


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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 06:29


I highly doubt it's actually cinnabar... It's so cheap though that I'm slightly tempted to buy some to analyze.



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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 07:34


Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)  
I highly doubt it's actually cinnabar... It's so cheap though that I'm slightly tempted to buy some to analyze.


This is exactly why I generally try to avoid powders for things like minerals and plant matter. I've bought cinnabar off ebay but in rock form and it's legit.

If you want cinnabar I can vouch for this seller --

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cinnabar-Single-Crystal-Stone-0-3-5...
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 07:43


HgS is among the least soluble salts, I don't know whether it is soluble in HCl (stomach acid) but I'm pretty sure it is not toxic when ingested.
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 08:01


Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
HgS is among the least soluble salts, I don't know whether it is soluble in HCl (stomach acid) but I'm pretty sure it is not toxic when ingested.


I doubt it's appreciably soluble in stomach acid, but I sure as hell wouldn't risk it.

That being said, the magic cinnibar crystals the ebay nut is selling are meant to be hung from a mirror or placed under a pillow, so I wouldn't worry about ingestion unless they are used with very small children, and then it would be a choking hazard more than a poison issue.

it's like homeopathetic arsenic- there's no actual arsenic in it, so the toxicity i moot.




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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 08:45


Guys please calm down and let me explain. Yes, the cinnabar that is being sold is likely to really contain mercury. Cinnabar is a culturally significant component of traditional Chinese medicine, and indeed you can go into a pharmacy here and get it prescribed for all sorts of conditions such as: pain relief, sore throat, canker sores, stomach ulcers. Furthermore, it is believed to help with detox, improve sleep quality, calming nerves, and to improve eyesight. However, it is usually mixed with a host of other ingredients and in small amounts so that actually getting poisoned is highly unlikely. When I bought it pure for my experiments, the senior pharmacist warned me about its toxicity, and that I should limit my daily dose to 0.5-1 grams and that I should not use it for prolonged period. After all, how much business do you think a doctor is going to get if all of his patients die of heavy metal poisoning?

That said, I am not a supporter of traditional Chinese medicine at all, and it doesn't seem healthy to me to be ingesting any amount of mercury. But I just wanted you all to see the other side of the story, and to know that even though this is common practice in China, there aren't people falling dead in the streets.

Edit: I found and google translated the exact words used by the pharmacist.

Cinnabar is a natural ore that is both a tranquilizer and a detoxifying agent. It has the effects of calming the nerves, clearing away heat and detoxifying, and improving eyesight. It is mainly used to treat diseases such as madness, convulsions, upset, insomnia, dizziness, dizziness, swelling and pain, ulcers and the like. Cinnabar is cold, regardless of internal or external use, has a heat-clearing and detoxifying effect, but cinnabar is poisonous, it is not suitable for multi-service, long service.

This product is toxic and should not be taken for a long time. Avoid fire calcination, fire calcination will precipitate mercury, which is highly toxic. The water should be boiling when adding the cinnabar. Should not be used excessively or over a long period, so as to avoid mercury poisoning. Patients with liver and kidney disease should be used with caution.

[Edited on 2-10-2018 by Deathunter88]
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 09:41


What does it mean when they say "Cinnabar is cold" and it has a "heat-clearing ... effect"?
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 09:43


The ebay page also calls it curcuma.
Turmeric is a commonly used medicine and ethnobotanical. It is often processed with lime to make it turn red for red curry, body decoration like indian bindi, and medicine.
This could just be the opposite of what happens in india. In india they revere turmeric and red turmeric is supposed to be the pigment in red bindi but in commercial manufacture mercury and lead are common adulterants or are simply used instead of turmeric. As a result of that, and ayurveda, the entire indian subcontinent is now contaminated with mercury and lead.
In china they revere cinnabar, this guy may be selling red turmeric as cinnabar to avoid problems with industry and import regulation.
Knowing chinese ebay sellers, even the seller may not know which it is.

If you get any to experiment, if it is exclusively curcuma and lime it may smell pleasantly spicy, acid will turn it yellow, ammonia will dissolve the red pigment, and the red/yellow pigment [curcumin and dihydrocurcumin] when isolated can be used as a pH indicator.
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 09:48


Quote: Originally posted by Deathunter88  
After all, how much business do you think a doctor is going to get if all of his patients die of heavy metal poisoning?[Edited on 2-10-2018 by Deathunter88]
Aren't doctors (accidentally) killing patients normal in china?
What's the mercury price in china? Is it comparable to HgS price in china (in terms of $/mol)?




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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 09:52


In responce to MrHomeScientist, in TCM hot doesnt mean hot, cold doesnt mean cold, blood doesnt mean blood, etc. all terms regarding physical properties and human fluids or organs are metaphorical based on chinese medicine philosophy. Something that tastes sweet can 'taste bitter' in chinese philosophy.

Cold is like settling, down regulating, calming, too inactive, stagnating, not working. Basically turning down the dial on whatever is being talked about.
Hot is energetic, stimulant, overactive, inflaming.
A medicine that is metaphorically cold to clear metaphorical heat is something that counteracts some overactive, stimulating, or inflammatory condition.
'Cold' nature medicines would be used against something 'hot' like the flu or a staph infection.
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 09:53


Quote: Originally posted by Deathunter88  
Guys please calm down and let me explain. Yes, the cinnabar that is being sold is likely to really contain mercury. Cinnabar is a culturally significant component of traditional Chinese medicine, and indeed you can go into a pharmacy here and get it prescribed for all sorts of conditions such as: pain relief, sore throat, canker sores, stomach ulcers. Furthermore, it is believed to help with detox, improve sleep quality, calming nerves, and to improve eyesight. However, it is usually mixed with a host of other ingredients and in small amounts so that actually getting poisoned is highly unlikely. When I bought it pure for my experiments, the senior pharmacist warned me about its toxicity, and that I should limit my daily dose to 0.5-1 grams and that I should not use it for prolonged period. After all, how much business do you think a doctor is going to get if all of his patients die of heavy metal poisoning?

That said, I am not a supporter of traditional Chinese medicine at all, and it doesn't seem healthy to me to be ingesting any amount of mercury. But I just wanted you all to see the other side of the story, and to know that even though this is common practice in China, there aren't people falling dead in the streets.

Edit: I found and google translated the exact words used by the pharmacist.

Cinnabar is a natural ore that is both a tranquilizer and a detoxifying agent. It has the effects of calming the nerves, clearing away heat and detoxifying, and improving eyesight. It is mainly used to treat diseases such as madness, convulsions, upset, insomnia, dizziness, dizziness, swelling and pain, ulcers and the like. Cinnabar is cold, regardless of internal or external use, has a heat-clearing and detoxifying effect, but cinnabar is poisonous, it is not suitable for multi-service, long service.

This product is toxic and should not be taken for a long time. Avoid fire calcination, fire calcination will precipitate mercury, which is highly toxic. The water should be boiling when adding the cinnabar. Should not be used excessively or over a long period, so as to avoid mercury poisoning. Patients with liver and kidney disease should be used with caution.

[Edited on 2-10-2018 by Deathunter88]


So, what you are saying is that, as long as it's not too toxic - and nobody seems sure if it is- then this fraud is OK.
It's fine to exploit the sick- as long as you don't make them much worse.
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 09:55


Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
What does it mean when they say "Cinnabar is cold" and it has a "heat-clearing ... effect"?

It means it has certain mystical properties that cannot be expressed in Chinese, English, or any other non-mystical language, but the closest translation is "cold" or "heat-clearing".




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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 09:55


Interesting! Thanks for the explanation. I'm unfamiliar with all of that stuff.
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 09:57


By the way...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/pages/help/buy/report-trading.html#re...
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 10:01


Well, I reported it to eBay. They shouldn't be selling a known, life-threatening toxin for children to ingest. Sems to me they're claiming a medical use to me, and promoting something like that for children is blatantly illegal without FDA approval.

That said, I'd have zero issues if they sold it as just a plain chemical with no directions on use. But to promote it in a way that will kill people is just wrong.
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 10:08


We have already discussed this. I purchased some so called cinnabar with a similar if not identical description. I was not able to detect any mercury in it and it reacted as an organic compound. I received a full refund but surprisingly the seller still has it up for sale!!!

Its cheap , if it a mercury compound, buy some to play with.

I found my seller: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-50g-Natural-Powdered-Cinnabar-...

[Edited on 2-10-2018 by wg48]




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Maximum thermal shock resistance is 160°C
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 13:29


For the children?

Seriously?

Google cinnabar root.

Cinnabar can mean a few things; whatever it is, the problem I see is interfering with shit you know nothing about.

Traditional medicine is what it is, and Hg in some form has been included like it or not...maybe inside a vial hanging from a string. Crusade at your own risk.

Curcuma can be placed under the pillow or bed sheets, can play a sedative role, so that children can sleep safely, no longer crying.

It doesn't say anything about feeding it to them? It clearly says curcuma?




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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 13:51


Quote: Originally posted by unionised  

So, what you are saying is that, as long as it's not too toxic - and nobody seems sure if it is- then this fraud is OK.
It's fine to exploit the sick- as long as you don't make them much worse.


No, my point is simply that the Chinese are aware of it's dangers, and that here it isn't being sold to the public as a miracle cure. When people take it as a medicine, they understand that it's a poison, and they do so based on their own free will.

Obviously, on eBay it's a different story, but that doesn't change the fact that the seller means no harm.
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[*] posted on 2-10-2018 at 15:33


Understand that not all systems of medicine are based on the on the scientific method, nor do they need to be.

Chinese medicine isn't wrong, any more than oil painting or dancing or baseball is "wrong" for lacking a foundation in science. Yes, you can certainly find geometry in oil painting and physics in dancing or baseball. But they're not sciences. Aristotle's methods wouldn't stand modern scientific rigor but there was no mass European extinction until the plague during the middle-ages when the Catholic church was running the show. What we call science now is a philosophy and if you're honest you'll understand this is something that's open to change.
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[*] posted on 3-10-2018 at 13:29


Mercury compounds are effective against a wide range of intestinal issues (disentery and cholera as two examples). Calomel (mercurous chloride) was commonly perscribed for such use. It was also used as an external rub for infections, again effective. However it is quite toxic to the patient, which is why there are better medicines now. So chinese medicine isn't 'wrong' at all. These compounds were used in western medicine too. Traditional chinese medicine has some stuff right. It is sorting the 'bunk' from the 'works' that is difficult. Putting it under your pillow is unlikely to have any effect, including toxic in crystal form.

One interesting use of mercurous chloride was treatment of syphilis. It worked in clearing up the lesions on the male and female genitals. However, it inevitably reoccurred so doctors started prescribing it as a tonic. Since the disease was clearly hiding in the body and mercurous chloride cured it on the surface taking it internally was the obvious next step. But of course mercury is toxic and much of the 'maddness' associated with syphilis can be attributed to the 'cure' rather than the disease.

Mercurochrome was sold in the US until 1998.
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[*] posted on 3-10-2018 at 22:44


I also purchased some cinnaber from a similar chinese source. I received a red powder, which is amazingly dense. So, it really must be cinnaber. If it were some organic compound, then it would have been much more voluminous.

I also read about the use of cinnaber in far east culture. In some parts of China they even put it on their skin to get a red color. This is not for daily use, but as part of some festivity. The toxicity of HgS is very limited, it is even less soluble than sand and glass, also in dilute HCl. So, even if you ingest some, I do not expect any effect on your body. Only if there is intake for a long period of time or exposure on skin for a long period of time I would expect adverse effects.




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[*] posted on 4-10-2018 at 00:10


Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
Only if there is intake for a long period of time or exposure on skin for a long period of time I would expect adverse effects.


This is correct, in this article the did a time/dose/effect was determined. This is exactly what I meant with my first post in this thread. There is about one molecule dissolved in a liter of water of saturated solution. I wonder how they determined this though.

10.1155/2012/254582



Attachment: huang2012.pdf (815kB)
This file has been downloaded 63 times

Edit: This is also the reason why there is no LD50 available. There is no oral single lethal dose, unless you choke on it.

[Edited on 4-10-2018 by Tsjerk]
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