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Author: Subject: Mercury Sulfide Being Sold as Medicine for Children
DraconicAcid
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[*] posted on 5-10-2018 at 10:29


Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers  

I think this is a case of two people talking past each other --

"Sedative role" is allegorical language. It's like a new-ager talking about "raising energy". The scientist would (rightfully) demand a physicist come into the room with instrumentation and try to measure this seemingly meaningless phenomenon. What is really being referred to, by the practitioner, is a sensation observed by people who practice mediation, of vibrations experienced in the body during these exercises. It's a real phenomenon, but it's experiential, not objective. But that doesn't mean these sensations aren't really experienced. There's no way to objectively measure this, and there's no coherent way to communicate this phenomenon to an objectivist.


You're right- it is just like a new ager talking about "energies". It's all made-up crap with no basis in anything other than "precious feelings" and "ancient principles" (conveniently created in the 60s). Also, they both do very well at curing things that generally get better on their own, and are useless for actual medical problems.

Neither deserves to be called "medicine" by anyone who claims to have any idea about science or chemistry.




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[*] posted on 5-10-2018 at 10:58


Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  
Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers  

I think this is a case of two people talking past each other --

"Sedative role" is allegorical language. It's like a new-ager talking about "raising energy". The scientist would (rightfully) demand a physicist come into the room with instrumentation and try to measure this seemingly meaningless phenomenon. What is really being referred to, by the practitioner, is a sensation observed by people who practice mediation, of vibrations experienced in the body during these exercises. It's a real phenomenon, but it's experiential, not objective. But that doesn't mean these sensations aren't really experienced. There's no way to objectively measure this, and there's no coherent way to communicate this phenomenon to an objectivist.


You're right- it is just like a new ager talking about "energies". It's all made-up crap with no basis in anything other than "precious feelings" and "ancient principles" (conveniently created in the 60s). Also, they both do very well at curing things that generally get better on their own, and are useless for actual medical problems.

Neither deserves to be called "medicine" by anyone who claims to have any idea about science or chemistry.


The same words are just used differently between science and other practices.

That's where a lot of this misunderstanding stems from. TCM and languages like Chinese and Arabic tend to use single words in an allegorical fashion to describe more complex concepts. When these terms come over to English, they're translated literally and the underlying concepts loose their meaning.

Something like "raising energy" doesn't mean the same thing to a physicist as it would to a yoga practitioner - ie. a meditative state in which physical vibrations are experienced in the body. The yoga practitioner, when they speak of energy isn't talking about a motivational force of work or heat. It's the linguistic stuff which really trips this up.
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[*] posted on 5-10-2018 at 11:07


Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers  
Neither deserves to be called "medicine" by anyone who claims to have any idea about science or chemistry.


A good example --

Native Americans use the term "medicine" in a completely different context than what a physician would consider medicine (diagnosing or treating physical illness).

For example, a medicine wheel is a sort of monument used for spiritual practices. If a Native American would come down with an illness, they wouldn't go to a medicine wheel but would seek out a physician, and might receive "medicine" in the form of a pharmaceutical.

Obviously this doesn't mean Native Americans don't believe in "medicine" in the modern context. It just means, these words can have different and sometimes contradictory meanings across different languages or cultures.

[Edited on 5-10-2018 by Mr. Rogers]
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[*] posted on 5-10-2018 at 11:51


Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers  
Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers  
Neither deserves to be called "medicine" by anyone who claims to have any idea about science or chemistry.


A good example --

Native Americans use the term "medicine" in a completely different context than what a physician would consider medicine (diagnosing or treating physical illness).


What you mean is, most First Nation languages use the same word for "magic" and "medicine". That doesn't mean that people speaking English should mix up the terms or consider them synonymous.





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[*] posted on 5-10-2018 at 12:00


Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  
Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers  
Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers  
Neither deserves to be called "medicine" by anyone who claims to have any idea about science or chemistry.


A good example --

Native Americans use the term "medicine" in a completely different context than what a physician would consider medicine (diagnosing or treating physical illness).


What you mean is, most First Nation languages use the same word for "magic" and "medicine". That doesn't mean that people speaking English should mix up the terms or consider them synonymous.



I think you're being deliberately obtuse and condescending now. Nobody is saying that our current understanding of medicine is "magic" (except for Paul Simon).

Sometimes other languages and concepts from other cultures just don't have a 1:1 correlation.

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[*] posted on 5-10-2018 at 12:21


Oh, the condescension is deliberate. Putting lumps of cinnabar or any other magic crystal under someone's pillow so that the vibrations or quantum energies can heal them is a form of magic, not medicine of any kind, even if the same word is used to describe it in other cultures or languages.

To say that it's perfectly valid medicine (but just culturally different) is simply wrong. Just like Deepak Chopra is wrong when he says that physicists misuse the word "quantum", and that they should be using it the way that *he* uses it.

But since this is a chemistry forum, and not a medical or quantum mechanical one- do you have any allegorical chemistry to share with us? Some insights into chemistry that can only be found through a cultural lens that accepts yogic energy, which will produce results unrecognized by our objectivist minds?




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[*] posted on 5-10-2018 at 12:41


Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
If you buy cinnabar pigment for crafts, what do expect - toxic mercury compounds ?


Absolutely, I expect toxic compounds. Have you ever worked with oil paints or mixed your own ink? The history of pigments is littered with examples of brilliant, but toxic, compounds.

I'm not going to rehash my points or those of unionised, j_sum1, or DraconicAcid. They've been made ad nauseum. Still, this topic belongs in this forum, not detritus. This is about as on-topic as you can get. It's a legal and societal issue surrounding the promotion and sale of chemicals.
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[*] posted on 5-10-2018 at 13:26


Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  


But since this is a chemistry forum, and not a medical or quantum mechanical one- do you have any allegorical chemistry to share with us?


Oh I sure do.

I can talk about Green Lions, and Red Kings and Philosopher's Wool, and Powder of Algaroth, and Jupiter.

Or... can I talk about FeSO4, or S, or ZnO or SbOCl or Sn.

How about Royal Water????
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[*] posted on 5-10-2018 at 13:28


Dang,

This thread really says a lot while at the same time says nothing.
I have read so many times that to make a mercury spill safe use sulfur.

Today I read that cinnabar/mercury sulfide is a scary poison. Who would have thought?

I do not see any reason to buy cinnabar in the near future but if I do I have made an internal commitment to (if some of it is powdered) to sprinkle some under my pillow and see how I sleep.

A person should not go through life scared of a rock.
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[*] posted on 5-10-2018 at 13:33


Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers  
Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  


But since this is a chemistry forum, and not a medical or quantum mechanical one- do you have any allegorical chemistry to share with us?


Oh I sure do.

I can talk about Green Lions, and Red Kings and Philosopher's Wool, and Powder of Algaroth, and Jupiter.

Or... can I talk about FeSO4, or S, or ZnO or SbOCl or Sn.

How about Royal Water????

He said allegorical, not alchemical.
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[*] posted on 5-10-2018 at 13:35


Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers  
Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  


But since this is a chemistry forum, and not a medical or quantum mechanical one- do you have any allegorical chemistry to share with us?


Oh I sure do.

I can talk about Green Lions, and Red Kings and Philosopher's Wool, and Powder of Algaroth, and Jupiter.

Or... can I talk about FeSO4, or S, or ZnO or SbOCl or Sn.

How about Royal Water????

He said allegorical, not alchemical.


Those alchemical terms *are* allegorical.
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[*] posted on 5-10-2018 at 21:18


morganbw: some rocks you should be scared of. Don't put molten lava under your pillow. Also don't put radioactive ore under your pillow. Cinnabar isn't likely to kill you. Especially if it is tumeric.
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[*] posted on 5-10-2018 at 21:56


Quote: Originally posted by weilawei  
Still, this topic belongs in this forum, not detritus. This is about as on-topic as you can get. It's a legal and societal issue surrounding the promotion and sale of chemicals.


The point that many others have made is that no, the thread is not on topic, the title of the thread is

Mercury Sulfide Being Sold as Medicine for Children

NOWHERE IN THAT AD DOES IT SAY MERCURY SULFIDE. IT SAYS "CINNABAR" WHICH TO MANY CULTURES MEANS TURMERIC THAT IS TREATED WITH A BASE. WHY SHOULD THESE CULTURES STOP CALLING THEIR CINNABAR "CINNABAR" because some bafoons think they're selling mercury based on their own incomplete knowledge of chemical and spice nomenclature?

You say it's on topic: I say that UNLESS SOMEONE ACTUALLY POSTS AN INSTANCE OF MERCURY SULFIDE BEING SOLD AS MEDICINE TO CHILDREN, this topic is completely fit for detritus
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[*] posted on 5-10-2018 at 23:29


Quote: Originally posted by happyfooddance  
Quote: Originally posted by weilawei  
Still, this topic belongs in this forum, not detritus. This is about as on-topic as you can get. It's a legal and societal issue surrounding the promotion and sale of chemicals.


The point that many others have made is that no, the thread is not on topic, the title of the thread is

Mercury Sulfide Being Sold as Medicine for Children

NOWHERE IN THAT AD DOES IT SAY MERCURY SULFIDE. IT SAYS "CINNABAR" WHICH TO MANY CULTURES MEANS TURMERIC THAT IS TREATED WITH A BASE. WHY SHOULD THESE CULTURES STOP CALLING THEIR CINNABAR "CINNABAR" because some bafoons think they're selling mercury based on their own incomplete knowledge of chemical and spice nomenclature?

You say it's on topic: I say that UNLESS SOMEONE ACTUALLY POSTS AN INSTANCE OF MERCURY SULFIDE BEING SOLD AS MEDICINE TO CHILDREN, this topic is completely fit for detritus


The cinnabar I purchased was listed in category:
Collectables>Rocks, Fossils & Minerals>Crystal.

My claim for a refund was based on it not being a mineral.





Borosilicate glass:
Good temperature resistance and good thermal shock resistance but finite.
For normal, standard service typically 200-230°C, for short-term (minutes) service max 400°C
Maximum thermal shock resistance is 160°C
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[*] posted on 6-10-2018 at 01:09


Quote: Originally posted by wg48  

The cinnabar I purchased was listed in category:
Collectables>Rocks, Fossils & Minerals>Crystal.

My claim for a refund was based on it not being a mineral.



I could understand then why you would think it might have been HgS.

I think they should change their listing category, but I don't believe they should be prohibited from calling their product cinnabar, if that is what it is known as to people looking for it.

Of course, I would be against Mercury Sulfide Being Sold as Medicine for Children. But so far I have only seen Turmeric Being Called Cinnabar, and outrage at the thought that people are being duped into buying useless spices.

The only problem is, turmeric is not impotent. As chemists, unionised and DraconicAcid should know that there are a huge amount of organic chemicals that serve biochemical functions, even in trace amounts. Not just many but nearly all spices contain in their essential oils at least a few compounds which have significant biological activity. Many times it is a major fraction. Fairly often these compounds have multiple potential uses and effects that go undiscovered for a long time, even though they've been "studied" many times, and even though you can get easily get analytical standards for many of these obscure compounds from multiple chemical suppliers.

I hate the snake oil salesman as much as you guys do, trust me on that! I might have a type of faith in nature, but it is bolstered by science, not beset by it.

Behold, the power of curcuma:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4180255/

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[*] posted on 6-10-2018 at 03:07


Quote: Originally posted by Elrik  

Red curcuma is a very common thing in cooking and ceremonial body art. Old chem books will tell you about 'curcuma papers' as pH papers. Yellow for acid, red for base. In cooking and bindi turmeric powder is processed with food grade lime to turn it red.

Curcuma paper was usually used in the detection of borates.
However, even in the presence of alkalies, the ground root of turmeric is not the bright orange/ red colour depicted in the advert.
So, it's fake, fake or fake.
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[*] posted on 6-10-2018 at 03:57


Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Quote: Originally posted by Elrik  

Red curcuma is a very common thing in cooking and ceremonial body art. Old chem books will tell you about 'curcuma papers' as pH papers. Yellow for acid, red for base. In cooking and bindi turmeric powder is processed with food grade lime to turn it red.

Curcuma paper was usually used in the detection of borates.
However, even in the presence of alkalies, the ground root of turmeric is not the bright orange/ red colour depicted in the advert.
So, it's fake, fake or fake.



Pathetically easy to rebut, but here ya go.




cinnabar.jpg - 2.3MB

Turmeric root+H20+CaO = Cinnabar



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[*] posted on 6-10-2018 at 09:24


Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers  
Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  


But since this is a chemistry forum, and not a medical or quantum mechanical one- do you have any allegorical chemistry to share with us?


Oh I sure do.

I can talk about Green Lions, and Red Kings and Philosopher's Wool, and Powder of Algaroth, and Jupiter.

Or... can I talk about FeSO4, or S, or ZnO or SbOCl or Sn.

How about Royal Water????


Sure, you can use alchemical names (and don't forget lapis infernalis, aqua fortis, spritis of hartshorn, or spirits of the red dragon). That changes nothing, other than to make it more complicated for the beginner. But do these names give us any insight into their chemistry beyond what their systematic names do? Will they help you with any discoveries that us objectivists might have missed?




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[*] posted on 6-10-2018 at 12:03


Would a reasonable, responsible person spend $2 then actually receive and find Hg in any form, or not, BEFORE saying jack to anyone, regardless?

[Edited on 6-10-2018 by S.C. Wack]




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[*] posted on 6-10-2018 at 12:28


Detritus.



Useful sites:
Balance Chemical Equation: http://www.webqc.org/balance.php
Molecular mass and elemental composition calculator: https://www.webqc.org/mmcalc.php
Solubility table: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
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[*] posted on 6-10-2018 at 12:38


Quote: Originally posted by happyfooddance  
Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Quote: Originally posted by Elrik  

Red curcuma is a very common thing in cooking and ceremonial body art. Old chem books will tell you about 'curcuma papers' as pH papers. Yellow for acid, red for base. In cooking and bindi turmeric powder is processed with food grade lime to turn it red.

Curcuma paper was usually used in the detection of borates.
However, even in the presence of alkalies, the ground root of turmeric is not the bright orange/ red colour depicted in the advert.
So, it's fake, fake or fake.



Pathetically easy to rebut, but here ya go.






Turmeric root+H20+CaO = Cinnabar





Thanks for proving my point about the stuff in the advert not being the right colour for basified turmeric. Here they are superimposed



colours.jpg - 51kB

As I said "However, even in the presence of alkalies, the ground root of turmeric is not the bright orange/ red colour depicted in the advert."

This might be ironically relevant.
"As turmeric and other spices are commonly sold by weight, the potential exists for powders of toxic, cheaper agents with a similar color to be added, such as lead(II,IV) oxide, giving turmeric an orange-red color instead of its native gold-yellow"

From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turmeric

[Edited on 6-10-18 by unionised]
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[*] posted on 6-10-2018 at 12:44


Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Quote: Originally posted by happyfooddance  
Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Quote: Originally posted by Elrik  

Red curcuma is a very common thing in cooking and ceremonial body art. Old chem books will tell you about 'curcuma papers' as pH papers. Yellow for acid, red for base. In cooking and bindi turmeric powder is processed with food grade lime to turn it red.

Curcuma paper was usually used in the detection of borates.
However, even in the presence of alkalies, the ground root of turmeric is not the bright orange/ red colour depicted in the advert.
So, it's fake, fake or fake.



Pathetically easy to rebut, but here ya go.






Turmeric root+H20+CaO = Cinnabar





Thanks for proving my point about the stuff in the advert not being the right colour for basified turmeric. Here they are superimposed





As I said "However, even in the presence of alkalies, the ground root of turmeric is not the bright orange/ red colour depicted in the advert."

This might be ironically relevant.
"As turmeric and other spices are commonly sold by weight, the potential exists for powders of toxic, cheaper agents with a similar color to be added, such as lead(II,IV) oxide, giving turmeric an orange-red color instead of its native gold-yellow"

From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turmeric

[Edited on 6-10-18 by unionised]
Wet stuff usually have a darker colour. Is the basified turmeric wet?



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[*] posted on 6-10-2018 at 12:50


You are pathetically desperate to save face.

My picture shows a moist paste, not a dry powder.

You must really fancy yourself smart, but you're only fooling yourself.

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[*] posted on 6-10-2018 at 12:58


Quote: Originally posted by happyfooddance  
You are pathetically desperate to save face.

My picture shows a moist paste, not a dry powder.

You must really fancy yourself smart, but you're only fooling yourself.



Before I posted about the colour I tried the effect of ammonia gas on turmeric (I was aiming to avoid the issue you have raised).
The result was the same- it's simply the wrong colour. I didn't bother to post it because I figured anyone who cared would do a similar experiment (as you did).

And I was pretty sure they would get the same result- turmeric is a brownish red, rather than an orange one.
You did get pretty much the same result as I did- it's not the colour of the stuff in the advert. Yet you seem to have tried to claim that makes me somehow wrong.


Now, what was that about "You are pathetically desperate to save face."?
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[*] posted on 6-10-2018 at 13:09


Directly from the ebay ad (also from common sense):

"2.The colors may be a little difference for the different monitors displays, please understand."
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