Sciencemadness Discussion Board

What is generally legal or illegal in Germany/EU?

Draeger - 1-2-2020 at 06:12

So, since I'm having problems with finding information about what is legal and what is not legal if you are a hobbyist, I guess I just want to ask for your experiences and/or what you've heard.

Tsjerk - 1-2-2020 at 07:28

One of the more specific questions I have seen today... This question can be answered with only one answer; whatever is not specificied by the law to be illegal is legal.

Unspecific questions have unspecific answers.

B(a)P - 1-2-2020 at 11:45

This would be a good starting point
https://echa.europa.eu/substances-restricted-under-reach

G-Coupled - 1-2-2020 at 21:49

Quote: Originally posted by Draeger  
So, since I'm having problems with finding information about what is legal and what is not legal if you are a hobbyist, I guess I just want to ask for your experiences and/or what you've heard.


A surprising amount of stuff is perfectly legal for home hobbyists to own and use in the EU, even notoriously 'listed' reagents like Acetic Anhydride for example.

The trick seems to mainly be finding someone willing to sell these items to you, and a surprising variety of stuff can be found on well known auction sites etc. for a start, if you look.

[Edited on 2-2-2020 by G-Coupled]

Draeger - 2-2-2020 at 05:09

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
One of the more specific questions I have seen today... This question can be answered with only one answer; whatever is not specificied by the law to be illegal is legal.

Unspecific questions have unspecific answers.

Sorry, I just didn't know how to detail it any more than that.

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P  
This would be a good starting point
https://echa.europa.eu/substances-restricted-under-reach

Thanks. I'll take a good look into the list.

Quote: Originally posted by G-Coupled  
Quote: Originally posted by Draeger  
So, since I'm having problems with finding information about what is legal and what is not legal if you are a hobbyist, I guess I just want to ask for your experiences and/or what you've heard.


A surprising amount of stuff is perfectly legal for home hobbyists to own and use in the EU, even notoriously 'listed' reagents like Acetic Anhydride for example.

The trick seems to mainly be finding someone willing to sell these items to you, and a surprising variety of stuff can be found on well known auction sites etc. for a start, if you look.

[Edited on 2-2-2020 by G-Coupled]

Which sites do you know that sell that? I've, so far, only found a single website that sells large amounts of toxic things and more rare chemicals, but I can't find any other websites.

I was also wondering; which chemicals can you make at home legally? I'm guessing toxic and carcinogenic things would be illegal?

Tsjerk - 2-2-2020 at 05:44

Only very few chemicals are absolutely illegal to produce/pocess. The troubles start when questions are raised about what your intentions are. Did you make that drug precursor because you were interested in the chemistry or did you make it to produce drugs?

In the EU there are very few examples were the defendant has to prove his innocence. As far as I know owning chemicals does not require proving innocence.

Summary: as long as you don't make explosives or drugs (both are not allowed, in any amount), and more important; you don't have the intention to do so, you will be OK.

Draeger - 2-2-2020 at 07:10

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Only very few chemicals are absolutely illegal to produce/pocess. The troubles start when questions are raised about what your intentions are. Did you make that drug precursor because you were interested in the chemistry or did you make it to produce drugs?

In the EU there are very few examples were the defendant has to prove his innocence. As far as I know owning chemicals does not require proving innocence.

Summary: as long as you don't make explosives or drugs (both are not allowed, in any amount), and more important; you don't have the intention to do so, you will be OK.

Ah, alright. Thank you!

Zyklon B

sodium_stearate - 2-2-2020 at 11:37

Try getting some of that and watch what happens! :D

B(a)P - 2-2-2020 at 11:53

Quote: Originally posted by Draeger  
Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
One of the more specific questions I have seen today... This question can be answered with only one answer; whatever is not specificied by the law to be illegal is legal.

Unspecific questions have unspecific answers.

Sorry, I just didn't know how to detail it any more than that.

Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P  
This would be a good starting point
https://echa.europa.eu/substances-restricted-under-reach

Thanks. I'll take a good look into the list.



Quote: Originally posted by G-Coupled  
Quote: Originally posted by Draeger  
So, since I'm having problems with finding information about what is legal and what is not legal if you are a hobbyist, I guess I just want to ask for your experiences and/or what you've heard.


A surprising amount of stuff is perfectly legal for home hobbyists to own and use in the EU, even notoriously 'listed' reagents like Acetic Anhydride for example.

The trick seems to mainly be finding someone willing to sell these items to you, and a surprising variety of stuff can be found on well known auction sites etc. for a start, if you look.

[Edited on 2-2-2020 by G-Coupled]

Which sites do you know that sell that? I've, so far, only found a single website that sells large amounts of toxic things and more rare chemicals, but I can't find any other websites.

I was also wondering; which chemicals can you make at home legally? I'm guessing toxic and carcinogenic things would be illegal?


Toxicity and carcinogenic effect are rarely drivers for regulating compounds.

karlos³ - 2-2-2020 at 12:12

Quote: Originally posted by sodium_stearate  
Try getting some of that and watch what happens! :D

All the lice will drop dead?

Cezium - 2-2-2020 at 23:18

sodium_stearate> surprisingly still in production under name "Uragan D2" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B#Legacy

Draeger - 3-2-2020 at 08:23

Since there seems to be special regulations on mercury, cadmium and lead, when are those legal or illegal? Sorry if it's obvious, but I really want to make sure I understood it correctly.

G-Coupled - 3-2-2020 at 12:59

Quote: Originally posted by Draeger  
Since there seems to be special regulations on mercury, cadmium and lead, when are those legal or illegal? Sorry if it's obvious, but I really want to make sure I understood it correctly.


Just don't dispose of them down the kitchen sink, and you'll be fine.

Draeger - 3-2-2020 at 14:29

Quote: Originally posted by G-Coupled  
Quote: Originally posted by Draeger  
Since there seems to be special regulations on mercury, cadmium and lead, when are those legal or illegal? Sorry if it's obvious, but I really want to make sure I understood it correctly.


Just don't dispose of them down the kitchen sink, and you'll be fine.

Alright. Thank you.

Tsjerk - 3-2-2020 at 14:56

Zyklon B is produced on a multi ton scale every day. It is such an important chemical building block it can't be abonded because of a bad name.

[Edited on 3-2-2020 by Tsjerk]

Lice

sodium_stearate - 3-2-2020 at 15:45

Well they sure put Zyklon B to good use
in Germany in the early 1940s! What with all
of those nasty lice to exterminate, it sure came
in handy!;)


EDIT(woelen): Serious warning!

This post at best is a very bad joke, which easily
can be interpreted in an extremely wrong way. It
might be something much worse than a very bad
joke. This is a serious warning to "sodium stearate"!
One more such issue and you will be banned
permanently! :mad:

[Edited on 5-2-20 by woelen]

Tsjerk - 3-2-2020 at 16:06

Quote: Originally posted by sodium_stearate  
Well they sure put Zyklon B to good use
in Germany in the early 1940s! What with all
of those nasty lice to exterminate, it sure came
in handy!;)


I personally think this is a ban worthy post.

Sodium_stearate is an asshole who hasn't contributed to chemistry for at least a year an

Nothing wrong with HCN as is.

G-Coupled - 3-2-2020 at 18:12

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Quote: Originally posted by sodium_stearate  
Well they sure put Zyklon B to good use
in Germany in the early 1940s! What with all
of those nasty lice to exterminate, it sure came
in handy!;)


I personally think this is a ban worthy post.

Sodium_stearate is an asshole who hasn't contributed to chemistry for at least a year an

Nothing wrong with HCN as is.


Is it...'hate speech'? {gasp}

fusso - 4-2-2020 at 04:22

Quote: Originally posted by G-Coupled  
Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Quote: Originally posted by sodium_stearate  
Well they sure put Zyklon B to good use
in Germany in the early 1940s! What with all
of those nasty lice to exterminate, it sure came
in handy!;)


I personally think this is a ban worthy post.

Sodium_stearate is an asshole who hasn't contributed to chemistry for at least a year an

Nothing wrong with HCN as is.


Is it...'hate speech'? {gasp}
Quote:
Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule of Hitler analogies)[1][2] is an Internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1";[2][3] that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds, the point at which effectively the discussion or thread often ends.

off topic stuff now

sodium_stearate - 4-2-2020 at 07:24

Why all of the "off topic" stuff all of a sudden?
The O.P. originally asked about the relative legality
of certain chemicals in the E.U. and Germany.

Why all of a sudden the reference to some
delusional leader in history? Where did that come
from?:cool:

woelen - 4-2-2020 at 07:53

@sodium_stearate: You've got a moderator warning from me, see your previous post in this thread!

[Edited on 5-2-20 by woelen]

karlos³ - 4-2-2020 at 12:06

@woelen, I am sorry, I will abstain from all these off-topic remarks in the future.

@OP: have you checked the supplier site of the SM wiki?
Here: http://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Lab_suppliers
I am located in the same country and used a lot of them already, they are all fine.


G-Coupled - 4-2-2020 at 14:21

It *did* kinda Godwin TBH. :D

[Edited on 4-2-2020 by G-Coupled]

BJ68 - 5-2-2020 at 04:36

In short:

a) Narcotic Law https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/btmg_1981/ the attachments (Anlagen)

b) GüG Kategorie 1 substances https://www.bfarm.de/DE/Bundesopiumstelle/Grundstoffe/_node....

c) Neue-psychoaktive-Stoffe-Gesetz https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/npsg/

d) Verordnung zur Sanktionsbewehrung gemeinschafts- oder unionsrechtlicher Verordnungen auf dem Gebiet der Chemikaliensicherheit = REACH and Co. https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/chemsanktionsv/index.html...

e) 98/2013 https://www.umweltpakt.bayern.de/chemikalien/recht/eu/362/ex...
with a new regulation https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELE... where now even sulfuric acid is regulated. Not more than 40% for the public....

bj68


karlos³ - 5-2-2020 at 05:44

Yeah but we can buy that regulated stuff easily outside of the country, inside of the EU.
We are still able to get almost everything easily.

woelen - 5-2-2020 at 06:41

The 40% regulation for H2SO4 is not a real problem. Where I live, most companies already limit sale of H2SO4 to 37% concentration (battery acid, available in high purity colorless form). This concentration can be boiled down to well over 90% (1 liter of purchased acid then gives almost 300 ml of concentrated acid). But yes, again a piece of nuisance for the amateur chemist.

Draeger - 5-2-2020 at 11:17

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  
@woelen, I am sorry, I will abstain from all these off-topic remarks in the future.

@OP: have you checked the supplier site of the SM wiki?
Here: http://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Lab_suppliers
I am located in the same country and used a lot of them already, they are all fine.


I know about it, but I was more interested in what's legal to make yourself.

Quote: Originally posted by BJ68  
In short:

a) Narcotic Law https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/btmg_1981/ the attachments (Anlagen)

b) GüG Kategorie 1 substances https://www.bfarm.de/DE/Bundesopiumstelle/Grundstoffe/_node....

c) Neue-psychoaktive-Stoffe-Gesetz https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/npsg/

d) Verordnung zur Sanktionsbewehrung gemeinschafts- oder unionsrechtlicher Verordnungen auf dem Gebiet der Chemikaliensicherheit = REACH and Co. https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/chemsanktionsv/index.html...

e) 98/2013 https://www.umweltpakt.bayern.de/chemikalien/recht/eu/362/ex...
with a new regulation https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELE... where now even sulfuric acid is regulated. Not more than 40% for the public....

bj68


More than 40% sulfuric acid is regulated? S3 Chemicals still sells 97% food-grade sulfuric acid. Would that be illegal to order?

karlos³ - 5-2-2020 at 11:57

No it would not be illegal to order 40%.
You need to fill some form and thats it.

But keep in mind, that no matter what you do in your lab, even if it is legal, if it is discovered, they would just take everything with them and find something they think you're guilty of.
You would probably not get anything back without a lengthy legal battle.
And that is more or less the same in every country where us home chemists live.
So actually, it does not really matter what is legal or not, keep your lips shut and you're on the safe side.

woelen - 5-2-2020 at 13:18

The regulation for more than 40% acid is after the start of February, 2021. So, you now still can buy 98% H2SO4 in the EU. After February 1, 2021 this is not possible anymore. If you don't want any paperwork, then you can only buy 15% or lower, with a suitable license, you can get up to 40%. Higher concentrations cannot be purchased anymore by any member of the general public. There will be no licensing scheme for more than 40% acid.

Draeger - 6-2-2020 at 04:58

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
The regulation for more than 40% acid is after the start of February, 2021. So, you now still can buy 98% H2SO4 in the EU. After February 1, 2021 this is not possible anymore. If you don't want any paperwork, then you can only buy 15% or lower, with a suitable license, you can get up to 40%. Higher concentrations cannot be purchased anymore by any member of the general public. There will be no licensing scheme for more than 40% acid.

Ugh. That's so annoying. Would it be illegal to own it in general or just to purchase it? Since if it would still be legal to own it, I'd bulk order sulfuric acid so that I have enough for quite a while.

[Edited on 6-2-2020 by Draeger]

woelen - 6-2-2020 at 07:09

After that date, there is a grace period, in which you can use up your acid (when the previous regulation for HNO3 came, there was a grace period of 18 months). After the grace period, owning conc. H2SO4 also will be illegal.

This kind of regulations indeed is a nuisance. I 'solve' the issues as follows:
1) HNO3 I make when needed. I have an all-glass NS19/NS24 distillation setup with 50 ml and 100 ml flasks. Very nice to make small quantities of HNO3 (e.g. 25 ml of azeotropic acid from a mix of H2SO4, water and KNO3). No need to store HNO3, just make it and use it when needed.
2) H2O2 still is available at 12% concentration. For most experiments that's enough. Freezing out allows making 20% H2O2 without too much trouble, with a little more effort I could go up higher. Again, I can do that in quantities of a few tens of ml. I actually never needed this up to now. Stockpiling on concentrated H2O2 is not possible anyway, the stuff decomposes in a few years.
3) Chlorates I make from KCl or NaCl. On my website is a detailed description on how to make small quantities (one batch is appr. 30 grams) by means of electrolysis. Chlorates can be interesting for certain demos and as oxidizer in aqueous solution.
4) Perchlorates still can be purchased, only the sodium and potassium salts are illegal (especially the potassium salt easily can be used for making explosives). The ammonium salt still is available, albeit somewhat expensive (but not prohibitively so). Perchloric acid also still is available, but unfortunately that is very expensive. Commercial ammonium perchlorate is slow-burning, so not really suitable for making exposives. There also is ultrafine particle material, but that form of NH4ClO4 is not available for the general public and also nearly impossible to make at home. I have another application of NH4ClO4 in mind: I am still searching for a means of making nice pure HClO4 from NH4ClO4.
5) Nitromethane is something which will be beyond my reach. It be so. I know of no relatively easy method of making this from other easy to obtain chemicals.
6) When the concentration of H2SO4 is limited, then I'll store that in concentrations, which are allowed and if I need a higher concetration for a certain experiment, I'll have to boil down a little bit of acid. A nuisance, but can be done easily.

So, my strategy is basically to not store illegal compounds (not at all, or just in mini-quantities, just enough for one or two experiments I plan to do within a few days). I make these chemicals from other legal chemicals, when I need them for experiments. Only nitromethane is something beyond reach. The really determined home chemist still can do many interesting things, even with the limitations of the current regulations. Having this kind of regulations also has a positive side-effect. It makes people more creative and forces people to build up more knowledge and experience in doing practical chemistry.

Draeger - 6-2-2020 at 08:05

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
After that date, there is a grace period, in which you can use up your acid (when the previous regulation for HNO3 came, there was a grace period of 18 months). After the grace period, owning conc. H2SO4 also will be illegal.

This kind of regulations indeed is a nuisance. I 'solve' the issues as follows:
1) HNO3 I make when needed. I have an all-glass NS19/NS24 distillation setup with 50 ml and 100 ml flasks. Very nice to make small quantities of HNO3 (e.g. 25 ml of azeotropic acid from a mix of H2SO4, water and KNO3). No need to store HNO3, just make it and use it when needed.
2) H2O2 still is available at 12% concentration. For most experiments that's enough. Freezing out allows making 20% H2O2 without too much trouble, with a little more effort I could go up higher. Again, I can do that in quantities of a few tens of ml. I actually never needed this up to now. Stockpiling on concentrated H2O2 is not possible anyway, the stuff decomposes in a few years.
3) Chlorates I make from KCl or NaCl. On my website is a detailed description on how to make small quantities (one batch is appr. 30 grams) by means of electrolysis. Chlorates can be interesting for certain demos and as oxidizer in aqueous solution.
4) Perchlorates still can be purchased, only the sodium and potassium salts are illegal (especially the potassium salt easily can be used for making explosives). The ammonium salt still is available, albeit somewhat expensive (but not prohibitively so). Perchloric acid also still is available, but unfortunately that is very expensive. Commercial ammonium perchlorate is slow-burning, so not really suitable for making exposives. There also is ultrafine particle material, but that form of NH4ClO4 is not available for the general public and also nearly impossible to make at home. I have another application of NH4ClO4 in mind: I am still searching for a means of making nice pure HClO4 from NH4ClO4.
5) Nitromethane is something which will be beyond my reach. It be so. I know of no relatively easy method of making this from other easy to obtain chemicals.
6) When the concentration of H2SO4 is limited, then I'll store that in concentrations, which are allowed and if I need a higher concetration for a certain experiment, I'll have to boil down a little bit of acid. A nuisance, but can be done easily.

So, my strategy is basically to not store illegal compounds (not at all, or just in mini-quantities, just enough for one or two experiments I plan to do within a few days). I make these chemicals from other legal chemicals, when I need them for experiments. Only nitromethane is something beyond reach. The really determined home chemist still can do many interesting things, even with the limitations of the current regulations. Having this kind of regulations also has a positive side-effect. It makes people more creative and forces people to build up more knowledge and experience in doing practical chemistry.

Ah. Alright. Thank you.

Draeger - 10-2-2020 at 15:12

What about buying chemical weapon precursors like thionyl chloride? I found a seller for it (in Latvia), but once again I've found no clear definition for the guidelines of the chemical weapons act, so I don't know if it'd be legal to order it.

Steam - 10-2-2020 at 15:56

Draeger, at least here in the US, that might very well fall under the Patriot Act and the lesser known Domestic Security Enhancement Act, since, as you mention, it would be a chemical weapon precursor. If you were an established laboratory (with a EIN/ tax id and such, which really isn't that difficult to do in the States if you own a commercial address) it would be one thing, but as an individual it enables law enforcement to search for "terrorist activity" on your person with impunity with complete disregard to the 4th amendment. Secondly, law enforcement has the right to detain you as the federal government searches your premises to build a criminal case against you.

I would expect something similar to be true in Europe.

[Edited on 10-2-2020 by Steam]

Draeger - 10-2-2020 at 16:03

Quote: Originally posted by Steam  
Draeger, at least here in the US, that might very well fall under the Patriot Act and the lesser known Domestic Security Enhancement Act, since, as you mention, it would be a chemical weapon precursor. If you were an established laboratory (with a EIN/ tax id and such, which really isn't that difficult to do in the States if you own a commercial address) it would be one thing, but as an individual it enables law enforcement to search for "terrorist activity" on your person with impunity with complete disregard to the 4th amendment. Secondly, law enforcement has the right to detain you as the federal government searches your premises to build a criminal case against you.

I would expect something similar to be true in Europe.

[Edited on 10-2-2020 by Steam]

Ah, okay. Going to stay away from that then. Thank you.

woelen - 11-2-2020 at 00:22

From having a few hundreds of ml of thionyl chloride to producing and deploying chemical weapons is a far far stretch. The chemical weopons conventions are about tonne quantities of precursors, except maybe for a few very specific compounds, which have no other application than using them for making chemical weapons (e.g. some specific fluoro phosphorus compounds for making nerve gases).

However, there are not many suppliers, willing to sell thionyl chloride, sulfuryl chloride, phosphorus pentachloride and more of that kind of chemicals to the general public, not even in small quantities, but this mostly (at least in NL) is due to their extreme corrosiveness and difficulty of storing and handling them. Only if you really know what you get in the house with these chemicals, should you try to obtain them. Storing them is a pain in the ass, they eat caps and plastic bottles like hell. Nearby labels, tools, equipment, all is corroded by the fumes. I have some of these chemicals, but I store them in sealed glass ampoules, the only way to keep them contained for more than a few months without issues of fumes and corrosion. These chemicals also are dangerous to handle. They have intensely suffocating vapors and with some of them, as soon as you open the bottle, there is a strong hissing noise of pressure release and you are greeted by a big dense cloud of HCl-fumes.

So, for a starting home chemist, steer away from this kind of chemicals (the acid chlorides, acyl chlorides) and wait with that until you have more experience in handling corrosive compounds. Before you can run, you first need to be able to walk.

Herr Haber - 11-2-2020 at 04:11

Quote: Originally posted by Draeger  
What about buying chemical weapon precursors like thionyl chloride? I found a seller for it (in Latvia), but once again I've found no clear definition for the guidelines of the chemical weapons act, so I don't know if it'd be legal to order it.


You like to invite trouble it seems.
If the only thing it is to you is a chemical weapon precursor I recommend you stay away from it.
Get isopropanol instead. It has "a few" more uses than just a chemical weapon precursor.
Also please read Max Klemke's history for your own sake.

Draeger - 11-2-2020 at 04:54

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
Quote: Originally posted by Draeger  
What about buying chemical weapon precursors like thionyl chloride? I found a seller for it (in Latvia), but once again I've found no clear definition for the guidelines of the chemical weapons act, so I don't know if it'd be legal to order it.


You like to invite trouble it seems.
If the only thing it is to you is a chemical weapon precursor I recommend you stay away from it.
Get isopropanol instead. It has "a few" more uses than just a chemical weapon precursor.
Also please read Max Klemke's history for your own sake.

Nah, I was just asking right now if I ever need it in the scope of what it would be legally considered so that I don't have to ask in a few years. I won't buy it until I have a lot more experience and proper equipment. Calm down. I just want to be able to tell what is legal and what is not, and which restrictions some things have.

[Edited on 11-2-2020 by Draeger]

nitro-genes - 12-2-2020 at 14:47

Seen the overwhelming presence of law enforcement related users here on this board, it seems appropriate to put this here.

Europe recently extended its laws on "forbidden explosive precursors". It was quite funny to see they now list >40% sulfuric illegal instead of >10% (IIRC), oops...who knows how a lead battery works anyway huh? Anyway...
Many fireworks here still contain perchlorates as components of pyrotechnic mixtures. Huh?...Sodium and potassium perchlorates are forbidden now by European law as explosives precursors, how is this possible?! Is this why law enforcement seems obsessed with banning all fireworks in the Netherlands? Could I sue the pyrotechnic industry or at least the distributors? I'm a potential terrorist for having some of these fireworks in my home.

In university I've worked with many things now listed as explosives or illegal explosive precursors. Stainings using picric acid, sodium perchlorate for hybridization reactions, 70% perchloric acid for protein hydrolysis, and sodium azide as preservative. Funny things is I never got any warning for how dangerous these things actually are, not a single word! . :o No EOD was present, while everone, including undergraduates, were messing around with these dangerous and highly illegal chemicals, in sometimes absurdly dangerous ways! How does this work insurance wise? Is it that these labs have a permit as professional lab user? For 50 bucks anyone here can buy a KVK pas and be listed as a company and order every chemical you like from what I've read. WTF?

Also, supermarkets still sell bleach, I could imagine that during warm wheather and prolonged storage, sodium chlorate would always be present. If the bleach would be spilled, dry out and formed a crust, it would be illegal. Can I sue the supermarkets?

All high explosives are illegal...of course...Bang snaps contain silver fulminate, albeit in minute amounts, why are these not illegal? Same for nitroglycerin, used in heart medication? Can I sue these dangergous terrorists selling these things under innocecent labels as "toy fireworks" or "medications"?

Then there are the real criminals, real terrorists, of course...Ordering semtex from the dark web:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLYHtfryjk8

Luckily they were caught though...their sentence...uhhh...nothing. Apparently, although these guys were caught red-handed while opening a package of semtex, it could never be proven they were the ones actually ordering it. :o Thinking about the sentences some chemistry enthusiast recieved for owning illegal chemicals, it's like: Excuse me?!... say whaaaaaaat?

It seems the lessons here are:

- Potentially, lawsuits could make you a lot of money, for instating laws for which all consequences have not been completely thought thru. Have a minor accident with bleach, or fireworks and SUE the goverment for their piss poor law enstatement!!! Really curious... if you now have an accident with an illegal perchlorate containing firework, who is responsible?
- If you are caught as a chemistry enthusiast...deny that the stuff is yours by any means and keep denying it, works for Ali, should work for us. Keep in mind: You mean no harm and they know it, even though they will try and find an angle to try and believe you do in order to pressurise you in cooperating. You are dealing with people trained in psychological pressurization tactics, just keep calm and stick to the facts. 2. Be aware that in some cases intelligence agencies may operate outside of their legal jurisdiction (they are above any law themselves), having posted potentially life threatening information without any warning on a board where people of all ages are present. Besides, forum infiltration is highly dubious from a human rights perspective, as acknowledged by Amnesty International. The law that foreign intelligence agencies can share information even more so as I experienced personally. Someone should really think about the human rights violations made possible by this innocent looking little law. But he...it is not personal, these people just need to make living. Unlike a terrorist that has recieved formal training, you as an amateur chemist are much easier to screw over...easy meat is also meat. 3. The things you posted here might have helped to get a better overview of which chemicals to ban by law anyway...That's right, we've all helped dig our own grave here and we have all cooperated already. It is probably one of the reasons this board continues to exist in the first place.
-If you are a terrorist, don't spent years trying to understand the science of chemistry from OTC chemicals and post here on this law enforcement invested board and possibly subject yourself and your family to disgusting privacy violations. lies, intimidations, seeding, manipulation, to even material damage to your computer etc.... just order semtex and detonators via the dark web. It is mind blowing to see how the CIA can just shamelessly invade your property, considering in several American states tresspassers may be shot without warning. Just thinking about the money needed to exert such megalomania induced world control. Land of confusion...interesting story about Mike Masse and his son btw...he needed only a couple of grand...:(

[Edited on 13-2-2020 by nitro-genes]

woelen - 13-2-2020 at 01:09

You should read the regulations more precisely. Fireworks in the Netherlands indeed contain perchlorate, but less than 40% by weight. Any mix, having less than 40% by weight of perchlorate (or chlorate) is not illegal. The obsession of dutch law enforcement on banning fireworks is not because of terrorism, but because of general abuse and the immense damage done to public infrastructure every year on December 31/January 1. Although I do not like the regulations for chemicals like perchlorates, acids and so on (i.e. 98/2013 and its follow-up), I actually signed the electronic petition for banning fireworks. I am really done with the shitload of damage with all the fireworks in the Netherlands. This has nothing to do with chemistry, it just has to do with people being assholes, drinking too much and using too much drugs and then using fireworks to blow up things, set things on fire and hindering people who help others (e.g. ambulance personnel, fire fighters) by throwing explosive devices to them. This is total madness and it must be stopped, hence my signature for a ban on fireworks for the general public.

All your reasoning about bleach, which decomposes and forms chlorates and hence becomes illegal, makes no sense in this context. You at most get 15% or so by weight of chlorate (the rest will be chloride), so no issue here as well (again, there is a 40% threshold).

The regulation also is valid only for sodium and potassium salts of chlorate and perchlorate. E.g. perchloric acid and ammonium perchlorate are not under this regulation. Some countries may have regulations for them, but I can still buy these legally. I have read documents in which ammonium perchlorate is discussed from a legal point of view and politics does not require any regulation of this substance from the point of view of using it for making illegal explosives. There may be other reasons to put regulations on this (e.g. prolonged low-level perchlorate exposure affects iodine uptake and may cause thyroid problems), but those regulations then will have wider scope, because perchlorates are used quite extensively and may be released into the environment. Indeed, making explosives with ammonium perchlorate (without first converting it to KClO4) is quite difficult. NH4ClO4 burns and does not explode, unless it is initiated with a high explosive providing a shock wave of several km/s speed, and packed very tightly and mixed with suitable fuel and catalyst in ultrafine (nanosize)particles.


[Edited on 13-2-20 by woelen]

Herr Haber - 13-2-2020 at 04:39

I think you both are forgetting the most important aspect of these regulations.

They are for INDIVIDUALS.

As a company you can still get any of those chemicals in any concentration.

Or others, that have been banned for the general public for much much longer:
https://atomscientific.com/product/picric-acid-98


[Edited on 13-2-2020 by Herr Haber]

Bedlasky - 13-2-2020 at 08:22

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
The regulation for more than 40% acid is after the start of February, 2021. So, you now still can buy 98% H2SO4 in the EU. After February 1, 2021 this is not possible anymore. If you don't want any paperwork, then you can only buy 15% or lower, with a suitable license, you can get up to 40%. Higher concentrations cannot be purchased anymore by any member of the general public. There will be no licensing scheme for more than 40% acid.


That sounds like a bad joke. So after Februrary 2021 you cannot buy even battery acid? What a stupid regulation. Do you know if this will apply in every country in EU or only in some countries?

Herr Haber - 13-2-2020 at 09:42

Battery acid is less than 40% so no problem there.
Not all countries seem to enforce the regulations in the same way so who knows ?

Ex: one of my suppliers stopped selling anything containing Boron and HNO3 after the "ban". They're very strict on regulations. Still sells 35% H2O2 though...

nitro-genes - 13-2-2020 at 15:11

Quote Woelen: "You should read the regulations more precisely. Fireworks in the Netherlands indeed contain perchlorate, but less than 40% by weight."

So all whisteling fireworks still available (potassium (per)chlorate/ benzoate 70%/30% else it don't work IIRC) and flashpowder compositions (Thunder kings etc) do not contain more than 40% potassium perchlorate by weight? If I am not mistaken, my question still stands, if I would have an accident with these fireworks (or as many people already had), could they sue someone, since they legally bought fireworks that were illegal by European and Dutch law? Maybe inform a newspaper or something to make it more public, I get more curious by the minute now... :)


Quote Woelen: "The obsession of dutch law enforcement on banning fireworks is not because of terrorism, but because of general abuse and the immense damage done to public infrastructure every year on December 31/January 1"

How much of this damage is related to illegal firework? The fireworks still legal here are not able to "blow up things", except maybe cause a secondary fire. We also don't ban soccer because hooligans cause multi-million dollar damages every year, do we? Note that soccer is a great example, because, like fireworks, it has no proven benefit to society, except that a lot of people seem to simply "enjoy" it. The mayor of Rotterdam said in a press conference that new years eve had been terrible, almost like a war zone (excuse me?) with more than 50 arrests. Huh? During the queens day celebrations in 2015, 58 arrests were made in Rotterdam. These celebrations were described as "peacefully and harmoniously".

Consider the total medical costs of smoking sigarets and the 20.000 lives it claimes anually. A total ban on fireworks would save 1-2 lives each year, what is going on here?! https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2017/02/12/wat-roken-de-samenlevin...

Quote Woelen: I actually signed the electronic petition for banning fireworks. I am really done with the shitload of damage with all the fireworks in the Netherlands.

I seem to remember you made a post somewhere about not wanting to ban the EM section, because fireworks and energetic materials are usually the first things people naturally find an intriguing and inspiring aspect of chemistry. In fact, 50% of all people in the Netherlands seem to mostly enjoy fireworks and for younger people fireworks are almost like magic. So despite the fact that I haven't bought much fireworks myself in recent years, I can still RELATE to these facts.

Quote Woelen: "This has nothing to do with chemistry, it just has to do with people being assholes, drinking too much and using too much drugs and then using fireworks to blow up things, set things on fire and hindering people who help others (e.g. ambulance personnel, fire fighters) by throwing explosive devices to them. This is total madness and it must be stopped"

You mean something like this? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WJIyD0vt56Y

I would like to rephraze this to: This has nothing to do with FIREWORKS, it just has to do with people being assholes, drinking too much and using too much drugs, set things on fire and hindering people who help others (e.g. ambulance personnel, fire fighters)

Note that the (completely valid) debate about aggression towards emergency services personnel is NOT specific to fireworks, but a general mentality problem the whole year through and a frequent topic in the media. I tried to look up the actual NUMBER of emergency personel that was actually thrown fireworks at last new years eve, and the only thing I could find was the term "dozens", which means 12 IIRC, all without any physical harm done btw. Whenever no statistics are available, I'm inclined to presume it is an emotional argument instead. Can you imagine that if someone would be given CPR in the street, people would deliberately throw fireworks at them? I just can't, I don't believe it, I simply don't....Emotional arguments by social-media influenced mass-hysteria induced polarized people acheing tot put some mark on society and journalists that absolutely abuse their powers to manipulate according to their own visions instead of profession implied objectivity, which like the oath of Hippocrates for any doctor, should be punishable by law IMHO.

All these drunk people celebrating outside during new years eve is just the logical equivalent to trouble and property damage (like soccer, queens/kings day and many others). A curfew seems the logical next step.

[Edited on 14-2-2020 by nitro-genes]

woelen - 14-2-2020 at 00:40

@Bedlasky: After Februrary 2021 you still can buy battery acid (IIRC this is 35-40% acid), but you need a license. Without a license the maximum concentration is 15%.

@nitro-genes: I don't think any consumer fireworks contains more than 40% by weight potassium perchlorate. Packing materials, clay stops, that kind of things, also have top be taken into account. If people take apart the fireworks and isolate just the composition layer which does the bang, then you may be right, that part of the composition most likely does contain more KClO4.

My issue with the fireworks is not the exact composition, it is the abuse of it by the general public. Even with legal fireworks, a lot of nasty things can be done. A few years ago, my wife had a burn of her hair and her coat. A medium-size fire rocket (so-called "sierpijl") was pointed nearly horizontally by some idiot, well over 50 meters away from us. This person was shooting fire rockets in random directions, nearly horizontally, taking no care of people who could get such a burning thing in their face. Probably this person was drunk. So, even people, wo have no relation at all with the assholes can be severely affected.
I agree with you that there is a general mentality problem in society and also other festivals are affected by that and there indeed is a certain hysteria around December 31, but fact remains that on December 31, the presence of all that consumer firework adds a lot of additional mayhem. I myself also can enjoy fireworks a lot, but not at all cost. If the cost becomes so high, then (sadly) we must stop with it.

The presence of the EM-section on sciencemadness is another thing. It does not contribute to the mayhem, mentioned above. Of course, there may be some k3wls who want an easy and cheap BANG, but mostly, the EM-section is about fascination by energetic properties of special chemicals. What sparked my interest in chemistry most is not the fireworks, but the experiments at school in which pure chemicals were mixed and demonstrated to have fascinating energetic properties (e.g. KClO3 + S, carefully mixed and then ignited).

Bedlasky - 14-2-2020 at 14:39

Woelen: What kind of license? I doubt if government give to ordinary citizen some license for buying H2SO4 without very good reason. Or you mean business license or something like this? But for businessman cannot be problem buy concentrated H2SO4. As I know in CZ is H2SO4 sell only in concentrations 32-40%, 50% and 96%. So after this prohibition will be impossible buy H2SO4.

In CZ for example can be bought 30% H2O2 with identity card. You just write number of your identity card and reason for the purchase on list and seller sell to you H2O2 without problems. If the same will be applied on buying battery acid there won't be any problem.

woelen - 18-2-2020 at 11:29

The license I am talking about is a license for private persons, not for businesses.

The explosives precursor law allows people to apply for a license, e.g. for hobby purposes (think of certain arts, or etching). It is up to some local official to grant such a license or not. When applying for a license, you need to fill in a form, provide ID and have to explain why you want to have access to the chemical. For H2SO4, the licensing is for concentrations up to 40%. Acid of higher concentration cannot be purchased at all, no license can be obtained for that (at least not without having a business).

A similar license also is available for HNO3 (up to 10% by weight), H2O2 (up to 35% by weight) and nitromethane (up to 100% by weight). For KClO3, NaClO3, KClO4, NaClO4, no licensing scheme is available, these chemicals may not be obtained at more than 40% concentration. You can, however, get other chlorates and perchlorates (e.g. Ba(ClO3)2, Ni(ClO4)2 or NH4ClO4). The latter chemicals are niche chemicals and are much more expensive than the basic sodium or potassium salts.

BJ68 - 19-2-2020 at 00:37

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  

My issue with the fireworks is not the exact composition, it is the abuse of it by the general public. Even with legal fireworks, a lot of nasty things can be done. A few years ago, my wife had
[...]
So, even people, wo have no relation at all with the assholes can be severely affected.


But isn´t it the same argumentation which the "forbidden" chemicals? A few assholes, idiots and terrorists use these chemicals for making explosives. Even if they are a minority, they have enough impact to make the possession, use, production für members of the general public illegal.

What sucks me most....is the arrogant phrasing....e.g. [...]For some restricted explosives precursors at concentrations above the limit values provided for in this Regulation, there exists no legitimate use by members of the general public.
[...]
Above that upper limit value the risk of the illicit manufacture of explosives outweighs the negligible legitimate use of those explosives precursors by members of the general public, given that alternatives to, or lower concentrations of, those precursors can achieve the same effect. [...]

where my crest is rising (in German: Mir schwillt der Kamm...): Okay there is a "balancing of legally protected interests" (Güterabwägung), but if I look at the phrase " the negligible legitimate use" then I want to take the authors of it and the "experts" and shove it up to a place where no light shines (an eine Stelle stecken wo kein Licht hinkommt) without lube.
Sorry I make for photography and other uses silver nitrate and for that I need conc. nitric acid, there are neither alternatives nor it works with low concentrations, that means for me and for that LEGAL purposes is the use of concentrated nitric acid definitively not negligible and that is the reason why I perceive this as arrogant and beneath contempt (unter aller Sau) and it shows IMHO how bureaucrats are wired differently and there opinion from the "general public" aka "responsible citizen".

bj68

Chemicals/fireworks

MadHatter - 19-2-2020 at 07:01

I'm sorry to hear of the bullshit you have to put up with in
Europe because of assholes and nanny-state mentalities.

As a rule, most chemicals can be possessed in the U.S.
with exceptions such as some precursors to chemical
warfare agents. Many precursors related to drug making
aren't banned but could get a person a knock on the
door by the DEA.

There are federal restrictions on the types and amounts of
chemicals allowed in consumer fireworks.

Prohibited chemicals in consumer fireworks:

(a) Arsenic sulfide, arsenates, or arsenites.
(b) Boron.
(c) Chlorates, except:
(1) In colored smoke mixtures in which an equal or greater amount of sodium bicarbonate is included.
(2) In caps and party poppers.
(3) In those small items (such as ground spinners) wherein the total powder content does not exceed 4 grams of which not greater than 15 percent (or 600 milligrams) is potassium, sodium, or barium chlorate.
(d) Gallates or gallic acid.
(e) Magnesium (magnesium/aluminum alloys, called magnalium, are permitted).
(f) Mercury salts.
(g) Phosphorus (red or white). Except that red phosphorus is permissible in caps and party poppers.
(h) Picrates or picric acid.
(i) Thiocyanates.
(j) Titanium, except in particle size greater than 100-mesh.
(k) Zirconium.

Consumer fireworks. Any small firework device designed to produce visible effects by combustion and which must comply with the construction, chemical composition, and labeling regulations of the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, as set forth in title 16, Code of Federal Regulations, parts 1500 and 1507. Some small devices designed to produce audible effects are included, such as whistling devices, ground devices containing 50 mg or less of explosive materials, and aerial devices containing 130 mg or less of explosive materials. Consumer fireworks are classified as fireworks UN0336, and UN0337 by the U.S. Department of Transportation at 49 CFR 172.101. This term does not include fused setpieces containing components which together exceed 50 mg of salute powder.

sciece nerd - 19-2-2020 at 20:51

Why ban boron in fireworks?

NaK - 24-2-2020 at 16:54

What I would find very interesting is how hard it would actually be to open a legal business without having a chemistry degree. I looked it up for Germany and found that apparently you don't need any permission other than the sole registration, and would need to store huge quantities of chemicals to get to the point where you would have to get your building approved as a dangerous goods storage. Maybe I'm missing something though

Having a business would have a lot of advantages because you can legally possess almost anything and also buy almost anything even from b2b only sellers. Raids with confiscations and legal trouble would also be pretty unlikely as long as your not doing anything really illegal there...

BJ68 - 24-2-2020 at 23:18

Quote: Originally posted by NaK  
I looked it up for Germany and found that apparently you don't need any permission
[...]

Having a business would have a lot of advantages because you can legally possess almost anything and also buy almost anything even from b2b only sellers. Raids with confiscations and legal trouble would also be pretty unlikely as long as your not doing anything really illegal there...



Sorry that´s not the case....

The Gewerbeaufsicht https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewerbeaufsicht (Trade control) will visit you and they will make requirements how to store and handling chemicals and raids are not unlikely, because the authorities are aware of the aspects which are you describing. I know one case who got more then one visit which search warrant to check if they can find something.

bj68

NaK - 25-2-2020 at 04:31

It would make a lot of chemical posessions legal though. But there is a lot of bureaucratic overhead and some nasty regulations of the work enviroment that most hobby chemists probably don't really want to deal with. So keeping mouth shut and hoping no one finds out is still the best way

PTFE - 25-2-2020 at 13:43

isn't it really depressing to see those regulations pop up every few years?
you cant life your hobby even when doing nothing harmfull without living in fear of loosing everything of the work´you made. and if they come they take everything just because you might could maybe choose a desicion to do something to harm one. (like making explosive compounds or psychedelic substances for the market.)


hi everyone, this is my first post. :P

fusso - 25-2-2020 at 14:06

Oh EU's chemophobic laws about explosive precursors are already discussed to death. Can we stop this?

karlos³ - 25-2-2020 at 14:45

Just keep quiet and you're able to get anything.

If you are a lawful idiot, erm, I mean citizen, you can of course tell them you're up to make some home chemistry and want to acquire certain licenses.
But please inform us how quick they were to imprison you.

Refinery - 26-4-2020 at 07:59

In where I live, a personal business title can be obtained with less than 100 bucks worth by only submitting a form to the registrant authority and you get a VAT number.

With that, you are a business, and can order mostly any chemicals, as long as other rules are being followed, based on storage etc. The chemical items could be used up in business premises, or marked as shrink.

Sulfuric acid is what annoys me, because it is a basic feedstock for mostly everything and used up in bulk.