Sciencemadness Discussion Board - European Sulfuric Acid Ban

Glad I have such a number.

#metoo

Last time I purchased sulfuric acid, it was 96%, in 25L canister and it cost around 150 bucks.

Effectively, who they can prevent from making energetics are the low level teen cooks and other idiots who usually end up blowing their own hands. I wish there were more surgically precise means of removing them from the market.

Sulfuric acid ban is PITA because it is one of the most essential feedstock in chemistry.

[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Refinery]

Tsjerk - 14-7-2020 at 07:43

For everyone without such a number: get what you can before 01-02-2021.

Draeger - 14-7-2020 at 08:26

In the Netherlands "professional" just means you have a company number, it doesn't matter what the company does. Glad I have such a number.

Also 68% HNO3 and 50% hydrogen peroxide can easily be bought with the number.

[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Tsjerk]

Does the number have the same benefits in Germany?

Tsjerk - 14-7-2020 at 08:55

I really don't know, I never ordered something from Germany that required the number. Actually I don't think I ever ordered chemicals from Germany.

BrainAmoeba - 14-7-2020 at 08:57

Nice... I just some 98% sulfuric acid. By the way, what happened that they decided to start war on precursors once again? I though that situation calmed down.

Refinery - 14-7-2020 at 09:10

Quote: Originally posted by Draeger

Does the number have the same benefits in Germany?

As far as I am aware, yes. There was one instance where the supplier would deliver only against a valid business number. Germany seems to have widespread regulations on many chemicals anyways, at least with the couple of suppliers I've dealt with. Basically everything that has of any value in chemistry and reacts more vigorously than table salt, is classified as some sort of "professional use only" reagent.

Quote: Originally posted by BrainAmoeba

Nice... I just some 98% sulfuric acid. By the way, what happened that they decided to start war on precursors once again? I though that situation calmed down.

I think the banhammer has only one direction, unless societal situation changes significantly. EU has been banning pretty much everything, including most small arms and large capacity magazines.

[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Refinery]

Syn the Sizer - 14-7-2020 at 09:12

I believe that is the same in Canada, though this ban does not affect me I still am in the process of getting myself such a number here. Tbh we have a very small precursors list and all the Class B precursors can be bought in 1 stop at Canadian Tire.

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-conce...

Belowzero - 14-7-2020 at 09:31

It also mentions potassium nitrate/clorate , calcium nitrate, hexamine,aluminum powders and many others.
A lot of essential chemicals for the home chemist.
I guess we will all have to replace our car batteries too..

Governments, a never ending tighting noose.
Keep importing more people that are willing to use those against the population, thats no fucking problem , but potential precursours yeah that will help, scum. sigh..
I know leave the politics at the door but sometimes its hard to restrain.

Serious point about the electrolyte , am I no longer allowed to fill my own battery or have did the moron bureaucrats forgot we actually need that for you know real life stuff.

About stockpiling , at first that sounds reasonable but having 10's of litres of sulfuric is kinda hard to explain and will get you into trouble when caught, especially if it is considered restricted.
Also this would feel like every experiment you do is just draining hard or perhaps impossible to obtain material which is unsettling to say the least.

[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Belowzero]

karlos³ - 14-7-2020 at 10:45

Quote: Originally posted by Draeger

Does the number have the same benefits in Germany?

The VAT-number? Of course, just register a business.
It costs around 40€ and you can do it at the local Gewerbeamt.

BJ68 - 15-7-2020 at 01:33

The VAT-number? Of course, just register a business.
It costs around 40€ and you can do it at the local Gewerbeamt.

Make it and you will get perhaps visits from the trade supervisory authority (Gewerbeaufsichtsamt) to check e.g. the storage of chemicals and more important the whole REACH-Complex is for you in force, with all the nice pitfalls, where negligence will be punished, too.

bj68

Refinery - 15-7-2020 at 04:19

When I contacted the chemical safety authority, they were concerned about quantities that need reporting, and they were referred in tons. The treshold for oxidizing or corrosive materials was 5 tons if I remember correctly. Only stuff they were really interested was gas cylinders and explosives (fireworks, ammunition, etc) which have very small storage limits, unless they have designated and separate storage space.

So it is highly unlikely you will get any visit from any inspectorate unless you order IBC containers of that stuff and report it to somewhere. Just to note that business transactions are not registered in any database, companies must keep their own records for financials and inventory and if nothing happens that needs investigation, no one is going to come ask about it.

As long as the quantities are really in the hobby scale (like getting normal 0.5-1L bottles up to a 25L canister at max), I wouldn't stress such things, especially if you're not storing them in urban center apartment.

karlos³ - 15-7-2020 at 06:40

Yes it is highly unlikely.
If you only register for the VAT number(which is rather done at the tax office, "Finanzamt"), they don't even care about what sort of business you have or not have.
That only becomes relevant for other things.

Tsjerk - 15-7-2020 at 07:15

When you apply for the Dutch number, a KvK number, they do ask what you are going to do, but only to register you in the correct catagory. It costs 50 euro, and if you just say you are self-employed in whatever profession no further questions are asked.

You can probably even say you are a contract chemist, then even when a supplier would bother checking your number they would see that profession.

outer_limits - 15-7-2020 at 07:33

Just another stupid regulation which won't change anything for people with bad intentions but will make some problems for chemists that have no company.

I haven't read the full text - do they want to ban old types of car batteries, those which uses sulphuric acid? They need 30% or even more so it's over limits.

Ubya - 15-7-2020 at 08:06

why the ban though? how many incidents caused from diy bombs happened in europe?

alcohol and tobacco kill way more, but those are not "chemicals" in the eye of an idiot, put the word acid and all hell breaks loose

Refinery - 15-7-2020 at 08:19

Laws have seldom to do with realities.

The business type is only for registration purposes, but naturally any company can do any kind of business, considering they have the proper case-sensitive licenses if needed. There are a few controlled business types, like pharmaceutical, government contracts etc. where a special license may be granted and background checks are needed.

For common chemist amateur, most any business type that regards any sort of material handling, treating, preparation, testing or other manipulation warrants a plethora of plausible substances. Re-sale type business might not be a good idea, because some vendors might not want their products distributed, hence it's a good idea to mention for the record that the reagents will be used within the company and they will not be distributed to second hands.

Of course, re-sale can also bring liability issues - it is a fact that if a company sells some specialty equipment and it comes up in any criminal investigation, they tend to contact in order to at least get a statement was there any reason for suspicion, and of course they'll want all records of sale for investigating the participants. Actually, if a company sells anything that can be of interest for certain agencies, they may just show up and request all the sales information for intelligence purposes if any interesting names come up. The nuisance of this is that the law enforcement tends to be always sniffing for anything they can make case of, and storage and handling of dangerous goods is an excellent case to at least make your life a little bit more miserable, if not else, at least with a little fine for any small negligence.

Tsjerk - 15-7-2020 at 08:21

40% of all explosives used in the EU during terrorist attacks are homemade. Professionals refilling car batteries can get a permit to use >15% sulfuric acid.

Ubya - 15-7-2020 at 08:32

40% of all explosives used in the EU during terrorist attacks are homemade.

and how many attacks did we have?

i don't know what's the process to open a business in other countries, but in italy you need to pay taxes for that business every years, plus the bureaucracy makes it a lenghty process.
every years i maybe spend 200 euros in chemicals and glassware, but if i need to also pay 300 euros of taxes because i'm a registered business would be pretty annoying.
there's also the fact that pretty much amateur chemistry would be excluded for younger people, it will be like the chemistry kits you can buy now for kids, sodium carbonate and maybe tartaric acid...

Herr Haber - 15-7-2020 at 08:45

For everyone without such a number: get what you can before 01-02-2021.

Getting there... as soon as I get fired from my current job I'll have more time making a company and getting a registry number.

There's still one thing I do not know though. Will this be enough for purchases from other countries ?

More specifically: UK requires a licences that doesnt exist in my country. Can I, if I'm legit here buy from them ?
I guess I'll just have to ask the question to a UK supplier someday.

Tsjerk - 15-7-2020 at 08:53

If you don't have any turnover you obviously don't pay taxes. I don't know about Italian tax office, but I had to fill out a 0 (online) for turnover four times before getting a letter I only had to tell them when I actually had a turnover.

If you boil down 15% sulfuric, you get to 90% at some point. Potassium nitrate still only needs an intended use to be declared and 12% H2O2 can easily be frozen. Chlorates and perchlorates can be made with some effort. So young chemists can still join the game, although being able to buy 96% acid and 30% peroxide was nice indeed.

Herr Haber - 15-7-2020 at 08:55

Quote: Originally posted by Ubya

alcohol and tobacco kill way more, but those are not "chemicals" in the eye of an idiot, put the word acid and all hell breaks loose

Well, if you put acid into my eyes of course all hell's gonna break loose !

The first round of bans was right after Breivik. I'm not convinced this second one is linked to terror. The first country I remember mentioning it was the UK because of people punishing "honor crimes" with acid.

Anyway, the old DHMO joke still has a few days ahead.

Refinery - 15-7-2020 at 09:17

There's that exact issue. It's us civilized people who can behave and we could have otc everything and it'll still be peace on ground.

But then comes all these bastards and gang blokes and honor crime type people who just use whatever they'll get their hands on and use them as weapons. The acid attacks are a great example why OTC sulfuric acid is a bad idea.

It is a fact that few people will figure out the trouble of getting a business number just to buy a bottle of acid to throw it on some other people, so the ban is very effective at stopping that kind of stuff happening. On the other hand, people who are willing to go through the trouble, will usually scale things up considerably. I guess only good thing about organized crime is that they avoid collateral damage and as long as people don't bother, they don't bother people. They order an IBC of acid and use it low key in some warehouse, and the street acid thugs will only see the 3% speed paste they'll eventually get their hands on when it has passed through the food chain. Well, I suppose this is how the world works.

Fulmen - 15-7-2020 at 11:06

Not long ago I had to get more sulfuric acid for my anodizing bath. Stopped by a shop specializing in batteries, but of course they wouldn't sell me any. But then we started discussing battery maintenance, and he quickly realized I probably knew as much as him on the subject. 5 minutes later I left with 3 liters

outer_limits - 15-7-2020 at 11:17

Quote: Originally posted by Refinery

The acid attacks are a great example why OTC sulfuric acid is a bad idea.

Really? If they'll ban sulphuric acid they will find another substance which is not controlled. This is the same politics as we see regarding drugs.

Making something illegal to posses or requiring the license is pointless. It won't change anything.
It's all about the people, not the things that they use.

Tsjerk - 15-7-2020 at 11:23

Is that the reason why we see so little gun violence outside the USA? Of course I can get a gun if I really wanted, but because they are heavily restricted here, I don't have one.

Do you think there would be less drugs around if they were legal? Of course not.

karlos³ - 15-7-2020 at 11:38

I know its borderline politics...
But switzerland has even more guns than the US, and yet they have much, much less gun violence.
The soldiers even have their guns at home.
So it really is about the people.

outer_limits - 15-7-2020 at 11:43

In my country you can make gun license for sport purposes easily. There are many, many people having it, they own weapons (pistols, shotguns, rifles) and keep it at home. They can even have it wherever they want, loaded (in case of accidental police control you can say that you're going to the shooting range). Ok, you can say that still requires to have some paperwork to do.
But you can also buy the replica of black-powder weapon without any restriction. The only inconvenience is that you have to assembly the ammunition on your own. It's not the problem, everything is public available.
It is available from several years and I heard only about 3 incidents with black-powder weapon replica. Everytime it was used in self-defence.

Regarding drug related context - no, I don't think that there will be less drugs. We all have phenomenon of legal highs.
But we can reverse the question - do you think that making the drugs illegal will change the number of addicts and recreational users? The statistics could be a little better because some of them will be in jail. But wait, there are drugs too...
Even if they are illegal they are pretty available for everybody. You can order it directly to your home using darknet, it's the same as ordering books, flasks or reagents. The only thing that such a law can change is ruining somebody's life.

Look at Portugal's and how their situation changed after drugs decriminalization.

Refinery - 15-7-2020 at 12:16

Gun politics do effect gun violence. I hear two statements all the time:

- Any person can easily make a gun from steel bar with rudimentary tools
- Even a child can cook meth

Now that when we require that the weapon is semi-auto with high capacity magazine in normal caliber and it is reliable and reasonably accurate, things get very complicated really fast. Yes, a slam-fire shotgun can be made in garage, but it doesn't really make any effect as a firearm. Or about meth, maybe mixing some otc pills with certain other otc ingredients in a soda bottle, but if one wants reasonable amounts of high purity product with high profit margin - aint gonna happen.

So, control does have effect on outcome, but it can manifest in many ways. For example, gun bans reduce suicide by firearms, but overall suicide rates are unaffected, hence no lives saved. Gun violence seen to have more correlation with social issues than prevalence of firearms - Switzerland, Nordic countries, etc. are a fine example of very low gun violence rate even though they have significant private gun ownership rates., compared to countries like USA. The fact is that majority of gun crime there is related to gang activity and other crimes, and rate of violence among mid-class working population is comparable to Nordics.

Guns don't have such social recreational value than drugs do, so they are usually a minor trade in developed countries compared to drugs. Illegal firearms are very hard to come by where I live, and when they do, they are extremely expensive (1000-2000 bucks for an ordinary handgun) and they are usually from WW2 era or cold war surplus, reactivated or drilled blank firing guns.

If there is demand, there is market. If guns were sold by the kilo, sophisticated workshops would produce them. Lead costs for such a shop are in few 10's of k's and they could pay back within very short time. Look at what drug manufacturing hotspots do.

Sulfuric acid? I could say that, just maybe, ban on selling it on OTC retail outlets in too high concentration could have done the job they intend to. Low level thugs obtain whatever's cheap and does the job, in UK it is bladed weapons. In USA, just about every thug has a firearm.

For the record: I support 2nd amendment and drug decriminalization.

Alkoholvergiftung - 15-7-2020 at 13:31

I dont see an problem with sulfuric acid ban. You can easy make it by electolysis with an claypot diaphragma from any sulfates.You only need cheap current.

NaK - 15-7-2020 at 13:49

Quote: Originally posted by Alkoholvergiftung

I dont see an problem with sulfuric acid ban. You can easy make it by electolysis with an claypot diaphragma from any sulfates.You only need cheap current.

Well then how do you get 96% concentration from that without gassing your whole neighbourhood?

Alkoholvergiftung - 15-7-2020 at 13:52

I dont know what quantity you want to concentrate.But with smaller amounts you dont gas your neibours.

dawt - 15-7-2020 at 22:18

Quote: Originally posted by Draeger

Does the number have the same benefits in Germany?

It does, but as bj68 pointed out it comes with a whole new set of headaches, beginning with the location of your lab. It's pretty unlikely your building is zoned for a lab. Despite what we often feel, amateur chemistry is actually almost entirely unregulated compared to professional chemistry. The few regulations that do exist are just REALLY annoying.

Quote: Originally posted by Refinery

Germany seems to have widespread regulations on many chemicals anyways, at least with the couple of suppliers I've dealt with. Basically everything that has of any value in chemistry and reacts more vigorously than table salt, is classified as some sort of "professional use only" reagent.

It's illegal to ship anything with a GHS skull and bones pictogram or those that are toxic to the organs to private individuals in Germany. Sale of CMR substances to private individuals is banned completely, but the toxic ones still can be sold over the counter or picked up in person at a chemical supplier.

It also mentions potassium nitrate/clorate , calcium nitrate, hexamine,aluminum powders and many others.
A lot of essential chemicals for the home chemist.

Sale or possession however isn't banned. Only suspicious sales need to be reported according to the regulation.

Serious point about the electrolyte , am I no longer allowed to fill my own battery or have did the moron bureaucrats forgot we actually need that for you know real life stuff.

I haven't read the full text - do they want to ban old types of car batteries, those which uses sulphuric acid? They need 30% or even more so it's over limits.

Only professionals will be allowed to replace the electrolyte. The batteries themselves (and the electrolyte contained within) are still legal to buy, own and use though, as they're considered an "article" under REACH and are thus exempted from this regulation.

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber

There's still one thing I do not know though. Will this be enough for purchases from other countries ?

More specifically: UK requires a licences that doesnt exist in my country. Can I, if I'm legit here buy from them ?
I guess I'll just have to ask the question to a UK supplier someday.

The licenses specific to this regulation apply only to the general public. As a business you will not need a license to purchase the regulated chemicals.

Really? If they'll ban sulphuric acid they will find another substance which is not controlled. This is the same politics as we see regarding drugs.

No shit. The drive to ban acids did originate in the UK AFAIR, and they already banned strong acids before this regulation was passed. Officially the reason for the ban of sulfuric acid by this regulation is it's use in manufacture of TATP and HMTD, but - surprise, surprise - any other acid can be used as well, rendering this ban entirely useless. Citric acid supposedly works great ffs - have fun banning that. High strength H2O2 is much more important, and sale to the general public has been banned since 2016. Guess that ban isn't working, so they gotta ban more stuff?! How the fuck they don't see the idiocy is beyond me.

[Edited on 2020-7-16 by dawt]

Belowzero - 15-7-2020 at 23:00

Quote: Originally posted by Alkoholvergiftung

I dont know what quantity you want to concentrate.But with smaller amounts you dont gas your neibours.

This is what I currently do with electrolyte which works perfectly fine, however if it would mean I'd have to boil off 90%+ it becomes a different story. I can imagine the price for a low concentration of acid would still be way too much, obtaining decent quantities would be expensive and a major pain.

Quote:

Eventhough I have nothing to hide I'd rather not make it a public affair. The problem with this so called legal/illegal state is that it is not that easy.

Let's say you do own potential precoursors and they want to inspect the place, depening on the mood of the officials involved they could get you into some serious trouble.
Even if you are the best kid in the class and do everything by the book, doing completely harmless chemistry there will be some asshole that will find wrong in what you are doing.
Might as well put up a sign 'Welcome to weird dude doing chemistry in his basement'

Paper chewing lifeforms love stuff like that!

Might be less risky to obtain these substances from the grey circuit.

Abromination - 16-7-2020 at 01:12

Electrolytic sulfuric acid isn't a great way to go, I prefer making it from hydrogen peroxide and sulfur dioxide. Its a huge pain, but sustainably cheap. After doing a few runs I find that I have enough to concentrate to around 96%.
It is impossible to find sulfuric acid here due to the cost of hazard shipping, I pity all who will be effected by this ban.

Belowzero - 16-7-2020 at 01:16

Electrolytic sulfuric acid isn't a great way to go, I prefer making it from hydrogen peroxide and sulfur dioxide. Its a huge pain, but sustainably cheap. After doing a few runs I find that I have enough to concentrate to around 96%.
It is impossible to find sulfuric acid here due to the cost of hazard shipping, I pity all who will be effected by this ban.

H202 is even harder to get in high concentrations and more likely to raise attention , at least where I am from.
I do not know of a feasible way to produce this at home in any reasonable amounts.
If any such thing can be done relatively easy and not requiring more exotic materials then it might be a good way of making sulfuric acid this way.
As mentioned above , apparently the ban on acids was initially inspired by it's requirement for making organic peroxides.

Boiling down electrolyte is a very simple thing to do and since batteries require relatively pure chemicals it is a proper source.

[Edited on 16-7-2020 by Belowzero]

Fulmen - 16-7-2020 at 01:22

Making something illegal to posses or requiring the license is pointless. It won't change anything.

Of course it will. Banning a precursor might not make things impossible, but it will make things harder. Sure you can make sulfuric acid from OTC chemicals, but it's a lot of work. So most people won't even start on such a endeavor.

Belowzero - 16-7-2020 at 01:29

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen

Making something illegal to posses or requiring the license is pointless. It won't change anything.

That is exactly the problem here, sulfuric acid is one of those cornerstones.
KNO3 can be made from horse manure, only thing I need now is some horses and a couple months off.

Alkoholvergiftung - 16-7-2020 at 02:28

Alternative you can make very pure h2so4 with lead hcl and CaSo4.
Here is the link its in german.
http://dingler.culture.hu-berlin.de/article/pj139/ar139070
or an very informative Dokumentation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XVt_ca97WE&t=560s

Housane - 16-7-2020 at 06:11

What is the best way for me to make H2SO4 in the UK as basically all acid is banned here and even if you try and buy battery acid you get a substitute which is distilled water

outer_limits - 16-7-2020 at 07:22

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen

And you think if somebody is determined he will not change the tool in case when one is banned? If a terrorist can't bomb the city he will get a truck and run over the crowd as it was done in Germany two years ago.

Even if sulphuric acid will not be available for public and it will require the license to buy - do you think it will be impossible to buy?

We should think at first about people who we want to stop using such regulations. Are there many mental ill bastards who are blowing up themselves in crowded places? I don't think so.
But there are organized groups who plan and perform such attacks across the whole world. They use banned already weapon, hand granades and explosives. They have their people everywhere - in special services, in tech companies.
Do you know that one of the terrorist group used ordinal gmail for communication? They didn't send any message, they knew from somebody inside the tech company that google hadn't been scanning working copys - so they kept their conversations in a message which have not be sent anywhere but they have been logging to one account.

So, if you think that will stop any organized group - I think you're wrong. If somebody wants to stop other people from doing bad things - he should also ban knives, cars and kitchen propane-butane tanks which are easily available and also can be very effective.

Refinery - 16-7-2020 at 09:45

Like Nurdrage said about chlorate cell, you could make things much more rigid, but that'd pay off only if you were making it in 100's of kilos.

Same applies to most other synthesis. An amateur can, indeed, manufacture a single reagent in tens or even hundreds of kilos, but that would require full workday input, meaning, your only chemistry application would be to synthesize this single product. Sulfuric acid? Sure, build a sophisticated plant and feed it with non controlled stuff and adjust it for continuous production, and you'll get 100's of liters per month, but what then? There is no market, merely a black market for homemade sulfuric acid for that matter.

The horsedungium nitrate is similar matter. Concept is simple enough to be carried out with 1700's equipment, but you just ain't doing it in your apartment, in no way.

Btw, Paris shootings had nothing to do with legal firearms. Yet it made EU ban semiauto rifles and mags over 10 rounds. I honestly consider this kind of politics a dosomethingism and also an excuse to restrict freedoms due to political liability. The one politician that says "not on my watch" will take every single freedom and right away if it could be used to cause harm that could cause questions for them. Encryption? Allows terrorists to message in secret. Home privacy? Crimes can be committed in home, like cooking drugs and bombs. Freedom of expression? Someone could say something rude, or even worse, question the system.

Abromination - 16-7-2020 at 13:23

Go with whatever works with you, but 3 percent H2O2 can be evaporated using a clean and smooth glass beaker on low heat without appreciable decomposition. It is quite easy to concentrate it above 15 or 20 percent, confirmed by density.

BJ68 - 16-7-2020 at 20:37

Yes it is highly unlikely.
If you only register for the VAT number(which is rather done at the tax office, "Finanzamt"), they don't even care about what sort of business you have or not have.
That only becomes relevant for other things.

A few years ago I had a talk with the people from Sigma-Aldrich, because the where here in the University....at this time (the law has changed, you have to renew it every few years) I had from my apprenticeship (pharmaceutical technical assistant) the licence (in Germany) to sell chemicals to the public. My question was, why I could not buy legal (no permit, not against a law e.g. narcotic, explosive) chemicals as private and if I have a business there is no problem with it.
Answer was if you have a business other authorities will watch you....

For example Kremer Pigmente wants the trade certificate (Gewerbeschein) and not the VAT-Number, for Sigma-Aldrich it´s the same: "Ferner senden Sie bitte Ihre aktuell gültigen Unternehmens bzw. Institutsunterlagen (z.B. Gewerbeschein oder Handelsregister Auszug) zusammen mit Ihrer Erstbestellung" and if you request that trade certificate you have to specify your business and that will be reported to other authorities see "Anmeldeweg" in https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewerbeanmeldung#Rechtsfragen
e.g. Bauaufsichtsbehörde or Berufsgenossenschaft and that guys will make inspections.

VAT-Number is not enough...

bj68

Eddie Current - 16-7-2020 at 20:48

First time I have seen this.

I am amazed that a chemical as useful as H2SO4 can even be banned from use.

Belowzero - 16-7-2020 at 22:30

Don't get me wrong , if this is a viable method then it might be decent alternative!

Just out of curiosity I will conduct some experiments with it.

Fulmen - 17-7-2020 at 00:04

And you think if somebody is determined he will not change the tool in case when one is banned?

What you fail to realize is that it's a numbers game. Every time you limit options the number of people capable of circumvent them drops. And the risk of detection usually increases.

outer_limits - 17-7-2020 at 01:22

But still, well organized groups won't have any problems with manufacturing explosives.

Affected people will be those who want to refill the battery. Instead of doing it themselves they will have to pay much more to a mechanic for doing that.

And, no - government don't want your safety. They want to have control. Each year more and more. That's the only goal

BJ68 - 17-7-2020 at 01:42

But still, well organized groups won't have any problems with manufacturing explosives.

They do not need to manufacture or do you think the nice stuff (arms, munition, explosives) what was and is sold to "Moderate Rebells" will stay at the place where it was sold?

Or think what is lying around in the basement or attic at former Yugoslavia or is used actually in some part of the Ukraine ?
Even here in Germany you can find something in the forest for World War II what is useful....

Sometimes people get caught:

a) https://www.radioleipzig.de/beitrag/%2B%2B-update%2B%2B-am-h...

b) First paragraph https://www.pnp.de/nachrichten/bayern/Fahnder-Bilanz-Kalasch...
this incident was short before Bataclan....

bj68

[Edited on 17-7-2020 by BJ68]

Refinery - 17-7-2020 at 06:49

Quote: Originally posted by BJ68

VAT-Number is not enough...

bj68

Afaik the VAT number is practically always handed over upon official company filing confirmation. The number translates to company registration number in some countries. I've never seen this thing put in this way. Second, there are different forms of companies, from personal business entities to shared joint stock companies, etc, depending on country.

Not sure about Germany, but it sounds really bureaucratic country. The easiest types of companies require just filling form where you put your name and sign it, and the company is valid and operational within 24-48 hours.

Fulmen - 17-7-2020 at 10:46

government don't want your safety.

True enough. It's the people that want to be safe. The politicians are like car salesmen, they will say anything to sell you whatever they have on the lot. And what they get in return is control. But that doesn't mean they're lying.

Quote:

well organized groups won't have any problems with manufacturing explosives

Sure they will. It might not be impossible, but well designed regulations can increase cost and complexity considerably. This reduces the number of successful attempts.

tubelectric - 27-8-2020 at 09:38

Hm... So this means that filling your car or motorcycle battery will require a chemicals license of some sort? Battery acid that is sold in car parts shops seems to be 20 to 50 %.

Also, no more sulphuric acid drain cleaners to the general public... I remember that 70% stuff was sold in a local, ordinary hardware store, although not on the consumer grade chemicals shelf.

And I think I've seen 96% acid being sold in specialized plumbing shops. Not sure if it was sold to anyone or only professionals.

karlos³ - 27-8-2020 at 14:32

Where in europe are they even selling concentrated H2SO4 as drain cleaner?
Certainly I've never seen that in my own country, only the lye based ones.

Also, is this stuff even really effective for that purpose? I would imagine that normal people adding conc. sulfuric acid into their toilet water would probably cause more injuries from splatters than it would result in unclogged drains, no?
NaOH for that purpose is without a doubt much more effective for that, I mean only if it isn't added directly as solid as many "normies" are doing and thus causing another clogged section of the drain

On the topic, I just bought two liters of cheap battery acid from a discount store, just in case.
I plan to purchase a 5l canister of conc. H2SO4 this year before its too late, that will likely last a life time, while also being so much cheaper in bulk.
Think I paid more for much smaller amounts than the price of such a canister(from the latvian shop by the way, good price and also, Linards is cool).

outer_limits - 27-8-2020 at 14:54

I know at least one drain cleaner which is 96% H2SO4 according to product SDS which is available in Poland.

I have almost 4l of supply but maybe I will buy a bit more until it's easy to buy and dirty cheap.

Corrosive Joeseph - 27-8-2020 at 18:22

Where in europe are they even selling concentrated H2SO4 as drain cleaner?

Where I live there is one product which is on the hardware store shelf and it is water white 95% H2SO4.... Hard enough to find, not in every shop, but it is available.

There is also an online electronics supply store in the city where reagent grade 96% and 98% is available to anybody but I fear all these sources will dry up when this directive takes effect.

/CJ

Belowzero - 28-8-2020 at 06:36

Where in europe are they even selling concentrated H2SO4 as drain cleaner?
Certainly I've never seen that in my own country, only the lye based ones.

Where I live it is rare too but I came acros it on quite a few occasions, smaller hardware shops often, not the big chains.
I also found it in a few farmer supply stores.

Also there are quite a few pool stores that have 37% sulfuric acid, if you dont mind buying 25L

Tsjerk - 28-8-2020 at 07:13

Also, is this stuff even really effective for that purpose?

Hell yes! Besides the standard things like hair (which NaOH does a good job on) it also dissolves complete roles of toilet paper! In my time as a student on multiple occasions I found a toilet clogged with a roll of toilet paper. Concentrated sulfuric eats through it like it is nothing.

Fulmen - 28-8-2020 at 12:09

I have seen it sold at wholesale shops here in Norway that supply plumbers and similar. But those shops don't sell to the public. I have found a few retailers that list it in their webshops, but none anywhere close so I haven't had time to visit any of them yet. And there are online plumbing shops that offer it with no apparent limitations, but I prefer cash payment when shopping potentially monitored substances.

valeg96 - 22-9-2020 at 08:45

In Italy there's a brand of almost colourless 98% sulfuric acid drain cleaner (3€/L), and many others that are dyed blue, but are sold in hardware stores only. Others are NaOH solutions, and solid NaOH (4€/kg) is being sold less and less nowadays. I'll definitely get a couple extra bottles now that I know it. Thanks for the info!

Fyndium - 24-9-2020 at 06:43

The few days I wish I lived in italy. Perhaps someone could ship a pallet for me, because I just ordered a full canister of sulfuric acid for 8€/L.

Fyndium - 27-10-2020 at 05:28

I did read through the new directive and the terms used make it appear quite scary. The restrictions for sulfuric acid are draconic; it is treated like it was an actual explosive material and it must be licensed and even in businesses it must be registered and a log kept to who it has been sold to. I'm not sure how seriously they consider it in reality, looking at the fact that it has been around for decades free for sale.

Thank god there is the 1 year interim period when possession is still fully legal. That's before 1st of Feb 2022.

Herr Haber - 27-10-2020 at 11:04

I havent read through it that time. Did that the last ban...

Is there anything in the text about businesses having to keep track of their stock and usage ?
Good luck to the metal industry if there is.

Fyndium - 28-10-2020 at 07:44

Yes, the list 1 stuff (sulfuric and nitric acid and H2O2) must be recorded and tracked and kept for 18 months, unauthorized personnel or third parties must be prevented from getting to areas where they are used, blah blah. I don't know if this register is kept only in case, or is it surveyed regularly by some state security. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd ransack some small businesses for purcashing the stuff because it's dictated as the evil's liquor, when in reality they dip their rusty wrenches in it. Oh, and how about anodizing? EU is turning things into corporatism in good pace by banning or bureaucratizing everything to the extent it becomes impossible for a small company to follow them.

I still find it obscure that such commodity chemical like sulfuric acid is to be banned. Even our police stated in some of their articles that the ban is pretty ineffective for preventing homemade bombs, because there are various alternatives on the market. Then there is that it still can be bought up to 15% so it only merely slows down the bad guys, but annoys the hell out of good guys.

[Edited on 28-10-2020 by Fyndium]

valeg96 - 5-12-2020 at 02:17

Update from Italy: My local hardware shops have just been informed that Italy is going to follow the directive starting from 01/01/2021. Sale of listed chemicals will be allowed as long as they are in stock, but they won't be resupplied anymore after 01/01.

Pro tip: Just tell your local hardware shops that you need sulfuric acid for steel treatments or aluminium anodizing and they'll understand why you're buying 5 liters of drain cleaner.

Xanax - 17-5-2021 at 11:18

Damn...

I practised in the color shop 2005. 96% H2SO4 has been banned in Sweden for long, but in the storehouse they had a 5L jerrican that I got for $20. Then I sold it for about $15 (but i saved about 50 ml). But they had for sure stoled it when I had a round-up... However, I was only convicted (2014) for possesioning of HNO3, not the H2SO4, but I guess the rules are stricter now?

Fyndium - 21-5-2021 at 08:52

Sulfuric acid banned in Sweden? And nitric acid? For how long, and what strength?

Xanax - 24-5-2021 at 02:17

Sulfuric acid banned in Sweden? And nitric acid? For how long, and what strength?

It's not allowed to posses more than 15% of sulfuric acid, but I guess there are exceptions for possesing car batteries? That law is pretty new, some year ago.

And you may not have nitric acid with a percetage over 3%. That has med banned for long time.

When I was procecuted 2014, I had two little boltles (each H2SO4 96% and HNO3 65 %) but the sulfuric acid was legal then, but not the nitric acid.

Now I've started a little lab again, with innocents chemicals, but it is difficult to read all new paragraphes and be updated.

[Edited on 2021-5-24 by Xanax]

Belowzero - 24-5-2021 at 04:13

When I was procecuted 2014, I had two little boltles (each H2SO4 96% and HNO3 65 %) but the sulfuric acid was legal then, but not the nitric acid.

[Edited on 2021-5-24 by Xanax]

I am very curious to know what happened, would you mind explaining how they found out and what happened after that?

[Edited on 24-5-2021 by Belowzero]

Keras - 24-5-2021 at 04:17

Sulfuric acid banned in Sweden? And nitric acid? For how long, and what strength?

When I was procecuted 2014, I had two little boltles (each H2SO4 96% and HNO3 65 %) but the sulfuric acid was legal then, but not the nitric acid.

Just out of sheer curiosity, what were you sentenced to?

Xanax - 25-5-2021 at 02:05

When I was procecuted 2014, I had two little boltles (each H2SO4 96% and HNO3 65 %) but the sulfuric acid was legal then, but not the nitric acid.

I am very curious to know what happened, would you mind explaining how they found out and what happened after that?

I have always been interessted in chemistry/physics and when I was a kid my dad had some pharmacies, so I could easaly get chemicals to build a little home-lab in our house. When moving into an appartment I get rid of all dangerous chemicals. But I still collected radioactive sorurces. It was innocents things like uraniumglass, clock-fingers with radium and americium from smokedetectors and stuff like that.

Then I did a less seriously experiments with radioactivity, to see "if I could split atoms" and se if I could "change the radiation", whith for example beryllium.

Then I started arguing on a swedish discussionboard, then someone said and claimed that I was not allowed to post my interests, due it wasn't legal.

Of course it is legal! At least, I thougt! You can buy smoke-detectors legal everyware, old clocks an uraniumglass at the antique shop. Maybe the beryllium was to poisounous to handle. The radiation in it isn't high and dagerous, unless you eat it.

So I wrote a mail to the Swedeish Radiation Saftey Authority and asked how much radioactive stuff it is allow to posess as a private person. But then, thay wanted to came down and check out my apartment with geigercouters!

Then they had the police with them and wented thru my apartment and found some mystical bottles (50 ml H2SO4, and 50 ml HNO3). But the worst was that I had also extrakted the toxins ricin and abrin from Ricinus communis and Abrus precatorius.

So, I was convicted for crime aganist the radiation safty law, which it was a little strange. My total radioactivity-collection may gave around 1-2 MBq total. Each clockfinger and each smokedetector gave about 35 kBq each. So my lawayer asked the wittness from the Radiation Saftey Authoroty how much you are allowed at home. And after som thinking he came with 100 kBq. Thats a banana!

But for the ricin I was also suspected fore crime against the conventions of chemical weapon, and for som reason, the abrin was mentioned as a biological warfare.

But I was only convicted for 1 (of 2) radiation crimes, 3 and 4 (the more seriously points with the chemical and biologigal warfare, I was acquitted. Just on point 5 too, possesioning av ricin, abrin and nitric acid (not the sulfuric acid).

Quote: Originally posted by Keras

Sulfuric acid banned in Sweden? And nitric acid? For how long, and what strength?

When I was procecuted 2014, I had two little boltles (each H2SO4 96% and HNO3 65 %) but the sulfuric acid was legal then, but not the nitric acid.

Just out of sheer curiosity, what were you sentenced to?

I got 13600 swedish kronor in fines, it is about $1650. But I went thru a forensic psychiatric examination, but I confessed it all, and behaved me properly in court.

And... It was only 2 days before Breivik attacked Norway including with his homemade ammonium nitrate bomb, and they also foud two police uniforms in my apartment. So I'll geuss the wouldn't exclude any possible terrorism.

[Edited on 2021-5-25 by Xanax]

Belowzero - 25-5-2021 at 22:44

Quote:

So I wrote a mail to the Swedeish Radiation Saftey Authority and asked how much radioactive stuff it is allow to posess as a private person. But then, thay wanted to came down and check out my apartment with geigercouters!

That must have quite the day.
I appreciate your honesty and good will, kinda rough to receive such treatment for being a decent person.

Quote:

So my lawayer asked the wittness from the Radiation Saftey Authoroty how much you are allowed at home. And after som thinking he came with 100 kBq. Thats a banana!

This is absolutely hilarious!

Kinda sad to see that they can't make a distinction between resonsible people and those with bad intentions.
I guess this is how government works in general, feels degrading too to have those that are often less knowledgeable decide what we can and can't do, often with far stretching consequences.

Hoffit - 26-5-2021 at 07:46

It seems laws are implemented differently in different countries. It seems on some countries only sales is restricted while on some countries possession is illegal. On first case you can just make it yourself, on the latter you need to adapt your methods (like make esters using other acid catalysts or making it in situ keeping the mixture below limited value for some other case and so on).

A life with only dilute mineral acids can sometimes be quite a challenge for the hobbyist.

Keras - 26-5-2021 at 09:07

Quote: Originally posted by Hoffit

It seems laws are implemented differently in different countries. It seems on some countries only sales is restricted while on some countries possession is illegal.

AFAIK, there's nothing about possession in the regulation. It's just about selling. Anything else, like prohibiting possession, is out of scope.

[Edited on 26-5-2021 by Keras]

Hoffit - 27-5-2021 at 00:20

I think too that EU regulation has nothing about possession. But for example in my country the law is implemented partially by regulating possession. Therefore no possession for me. I think other countries have different implementations in the local law and this does not apply to everyone in the EU.

Herr Haber - 27-5-2021 at 00:50

If I remember correctly the exact same thing that happened for HNO3 will happen for H2SO4.
Year 1: Sale is forbidden
Year 2: Possession is forbidden

As far as I know, the EU directive must be transposed in national laws so it should be almost the same in all countries.
Fun fact, I now work in the compliance sector so I hear a lot about EU directives and how they are transposed. There can be some minor differences.

Keras - 27-5-2021 at 01:20

I’m not sure possession can be forbidden everywhere in Europe. Depending on the country, that provision can be unconstitutional.
I’m not even sure the regulation limiting purchase would survive the EU court of justice scrutiny, by the way.

Herr Haber - 27-5-2021 at 03:59

Well, you're probably right on your first statement.
Not so sure about the second as a directive is basically a law that supersedes national laws and being a EU law it would probably not be accepted for trial by the EU court of justice.
I'll keep that in the back of my head though as I'm no lawyer but my new job makes me talk to lawyers and people from legal all day long.

Keras - 27-5-2021 at 04:48

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber

Well, you're probably right on your first statement.
Not so sure about the second as a directive is basically a law that supersedes national laws and being a EU law it would probably not be accepted for trial by the EU court of justice.

Quote (from the EU court of justice page): ‘Private individuals can also ask the Court to annul an EU act that directly concerns them.’

I’m convinced we could pretty much ask for an annulation, especially since the licencing mechanism does not give us access to the ‘full-fledged’ material. Every European state grants gun licences to people who practise shooting as a sport. Would they be satisfied if they were granted the ‘carry’ part, but be obliged to use blanks? That’s exactly what's the directive is about.

I’m sure the court acknowledges (as the British Royal Chem Society did) the value of a scientific hobby like ours. Besides, I’m positive everyone would be happy to apply for a licence, even at the expense of a thorough background vetting (much like what is required to get a gun carrying licence). Since it can be easily proven that 98% sulphuric acid (and 67% nitric) is absolutely required for a number of (simple) reactions, the reasoning underpinning the 40%/5% limitation cannot hold for people who are properly licenced. It implies that, even when licenced, said person is suspect of carrying out unlawful pursuits. This is in blatant violation of our rights.

I mean, I don’t care if selling to general public is restricted, as long as I can apply freely for an exemption by proving I’m outside the scope of the text. Which is not possible right now.

[Edited on 27-5-2021 by Keras]

Fyndium - 27-5-2021 at 11:08

Possession has 1 year transfer period, after which it is illegal to possess stronger than designated % without license.

Cheaper to establish a company than get any license whatsoever. Any legal business to excuse for the use of the reagent is valid for legal protection. Nitric acid is used as pickling acid, so is sulfuric, and also as an electrolyte for anodizing. If one claims to do any sort of research for business purposes, there is a legal excuse.

Praxichys - 27-5-2021 at 12:47

Possession has 1 year transfer period, after which it is illegal to possess stronger than designated % without license.

This is the same kind of bogus stuff they're doing with certain gun parts in the US. What happens if you have a liter of acid and are unaware of this change of law?

Classically, Ignorantia juris non excusat, so you just have to accept that someday you might have done everything right and still be an unwitting felon.

Belowzero - 27-5-2021 at 13:57

So we can store/possess acids below a certain percentage..
*Dillutes all concentrated acids*

"Sir you are storing 100L of acids in your house"

"Well I am not allowed to own it above a certain percentage.."

"You are not allowed to store 100L of acid in a domestic environment without a permit, you are violating the rules, you are coming with us"

Fyndium - 27-5-2021 at 14:05

I'd rather get a survivalist burial cylinder and stash my acid than dilute or get rid of it.

It's stupid what you have to store for a bad day in the modern day's world. I'm running out of burial ground soon.

pneumatician - 29-5-2021 at 14:53

it's time for a hobby chemist lobby? is difficult but nobody here worked in EU gov's agencies? nobody here is a lawyer? learn from the Catalan independentism... for every ispain-EU movement against Catalonia, this guys make 10 appeals against the "law" :-D

for now it looks like they have all won.

stoichiometric_steve - 30-5-2021 at 03:50

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber

a directive is basically a law that supersedes national laws

Directives are meant to be implemented into national law. They do not supersede anything because they're not laws.

VeritasC&E - 9-7-2021 at 03:27

We are slaves in a dictatorship. Truth doesn't matter here. Applying for a licence is collaborating with those criminals and their disgusting system, and sooner rather than later Karma will blow back in the faces of each and every collaborator. Begging for justice to those people is the same as begging the weapons industry for world peace. In these times life will be unforgiving, harshly just. Exciting times.

Wake up if you want to start living.

VeritasC&E - 9-7-2021 at 03:40

See the naïve drive in yourselves not for what you were educated to believe it is, but for what it is: A selfish egoistic weak human drive to look away, thinking this will affect others and that you could escape it. I have this in me like anyone else here. It's not about a difference between people but between the choice they want to make. This corruption is what leads men to slowly dig their own grave by lack of integrity. Ultimately natural justice is inescapable, in deeper and harsher ways than we can see.

macckone - 9-7-2021 at 05:35

They cannot ban possession of sulfuric acid of less than 35%, everyone with a car battery would be in violation.
If they make an exception for batteries, store your sulfuric acid in battery cases.

unionised - 9-7-2021 at 08:38

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

They cannot ban possession of sulfuric acid of less than 35%, everyone with a car battery would be in violation.
If they make an exception for batteries, store your sulfuric acid in battery cases.

They can, and do.
They distinguish between a "thing" and a "stuff".

Fyndium - 12-7-2021 at 09:41

The ban itself has been instituted mainly against politically motivated violent attacks from radicalized entities, and it also slows down amateur energetics makers and acid attacks.

It has been a long tradition of structural corruption and double standards in continental Europe. One with some money and contacts can get most anything at decent price. But still, the most simple and legal way to obtain these reagents is by establishing a simple company or a professional entrepreneurship.

A formal intended purpose of use is exactly what you state that it will be used, and if you have a research company, you will need it as a laboratory reagent. Research means that you are developing something that is not intended to produce instant cashflow, but for future business, hence running the company as zero profit entity is no issue. This can actually turn to be your protective in case of some sort of investigation, because you have actual formally filed legal entity, and you don't have to claim to be a self-taught amateur hobbyist with chaotic measures.

The common image of people for any company is an actual office or an industrial warehouse. Yes indeed, many companies are mere lockbox corporations, existing only on paper, or at your tabletop with zero physical property, but are still as legally binding as any bigger physical company. Lockbox companies can also own stock controlled subsidiaries for tax or liability purposes.

macckone - 12-7-2021 at 14:16

Quote: Originally posted by unionised

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

They cannot ban possession of sulfuric acid of less than 35%, everyone with a car battery would be in violation.
If they make an exception for batteries, store your sulfuric acid in battery cases.

They can, and do.
They distinguish between a "thing" and a "stuff".

Store it in a battery case.

Fyndium - 12-7-2021 at 20:55

I would bet that most of the time turning a lead-acid battery into a battery-shaped sulfuric acid bottle would be neglected if looked upon. Even smaller battery can house some liters of that stuff.

BJ68 - 13-7-2021 at 04:02