Sciencemadness Discussion Board - legality of c. paspali?

legality of c. paspali?

overunity33 - 21-3-2011 at 21:03

there is a member on the shroomery offering this fungus for sale. While it is a very interesting fungus and apparently legal to buy it is still pretty expensive. The seller claims that it doesn't produce any illegal compounds unless a trace metal is present so it can't be considered to contain the compounds. Also they say this specific strain (#13892) does not infect plants so it can't be considered a plant pathogen. Is this 100% legal to buy for research purposes? Even though its from the US I don't want to pay and then have some problems with USPS because of shipping a live fungus, then again a lot of those guys on that site send each other even more questionable species. Is this one of those cases where you can't be prosecuted unless you show intent to commit a crime? Seems like it to me, at least in the US from what I have read in the past

pip - 22-3-2011 at 07:41

why would you want it? even strains known to produce lots of ergot alkaloids loose their ability to produce such chemicals and "go stale" after a short time so your just left with a potential source of gang green. unless you like gang green or uv irradiating large vats of liquid culture just to keep potency you should stay away. oh and not to be rude but if lsd is your goal the fact you asked about legality screams you can't pull it off.

ScienceSquirrel - 22-3-2011 at 09:31

You would be a lot better off growing a Psilocybe species as it is comparatively easy.
I would start with an edible mushroom that likes similar conditions so you can practice the agar and bulk media cultivation techniques.
There will be a lot of work involved even achieving this on a reliable basis.
Growing C. paspali is going to be a lot of more work when you couple in the extraction of the alkaloids and processing to produce lysergic acid.

madscientist - 23-3-2011 at 09:11

What legitimate research purposes do you have? Without any, it'd be trivial for a prosecutor to convince a jury that you intended to use it for less than legal purposes.

The DEA sets up sting sites all the time, and has even harassed members here before, fishing for those foolish enough to buy scheduled precursors. If it's a sting and you fall for it, you can be sure they wouldn't tackle you the second you signed for the delivery. They'd wait. And wait. And wait... until they had overwhelming evidence of manufacture, sale, distribution, etc. They'd want to throw your life away forever, and they're very patient. Years of surveillance are not unheard of.

Buyer beware.

Fleaker - 23-3-2011 at 09:32

Can't you just get another fungus and get all the joys(?) of growing/culturing it and maintaining it, without the potentiality of years of incarceration? I don't see what's so interesting about the stuff--can't you pick something more tame and with less stigma.

I'd rather sleep at night [mostly] carefree.

This is the 21st century, and madscientist is entirely right. They will wait until it's a slam dunk. I'm rather glad they do that actually, because hopefully that means they get the right people.

Magic Muzzlet - 23-3-2011 at 09:54

The joy, and point of culturing the fungus would be for producing LSD, that is what is so interesting...
But really, paspali is not a very good way to go about it. You would be better off extracting certain types of seeds, and you would be even better off not trying to make LSD at all.
In the time it would take you to culture, extract, and do everything else you could have made many other compounds that are better than LSD itself and that are legal. Plus as has been said you will probably get fucked for attempting what it is you seem to be wanting to do.

Bot0nist - 23-3-2011 at 10:24

Fucked hard I might add. By the long, vieny, uncut falice of justice.

Bio-actives are not easily done in the kitchen or amateur lab. The whole idea is a little scary to me. Though, you probably have just as much to worry about when searching for a synthetic high on the black market. I doubt that shit is cooked in a DuPont lab. I much preferred a joint and a six pack in my hay-day.

[Edited on 23-3-2011 by Bot0nist]

smuv - 23-3-2011 at 10:34

Quote: Originally posted by Magic Muzzlet

But really, paspali is not a very good way to go about it. You would be better off extracting certain types of seeds, and you would be even better off not trying to make LSD at all.

While I agree with the last part of that statement (not making lsd at all), I disagree with the statement about extracting seeds. The concentration of ergot alkaloids in seeds is extremely small; the kewls trying to pursue this route are IMO chasing a ghost (which is great...because at least the won't be poisoning people with their 'potions').

Bot0nist - 23-3-2011 at 10:56

I thought he may be talking about LSA and related. I believe certain seeds (HBW) can have relatively high concentrations. LSA is not LSD though.

Magic Muzzlet - 23-3-2011 at 11:14

Well, the main point was so much time will be wasted getting nowhere with the seeds, that it would keep the person in question out of trouble.
Someone with a true ability to produce LSD does not need to ask about it all on the net, this has been said numerous times before.
Its going to be so hard to get precursors without some really good connections, and if you have them you are probably going to be in alot of trouble soon anyway.
Its just not worth it in my opinion, whatever way I look at it.
But, you cant keep someone from trying, or dreaming.

Bot0nist - 23-3-2011 at 11:35

Quote: Originally posted by Magic Muzzlet

Well, the main point was so much time will be wasted getting nowhere with the seeds, that it would keep the person in question out of trouble.
Someone with a true ability to produce LSD does not need to ask about it all on the net, this has been said numerous times before.
Its going to be so hard to get precursors without some really good connections, and if you have them you are probably going to be in a lot of trouble soon anyway.
Its just not worth it in my opinion, whatever way I look at it.
But, you cant keep someone from trying, or dreaming.

I am in complete agreement. There is a reason why there is a lot less LSD floating around now (I assume?), and the reason is that the materials and precursors are tightly controlled and strictly watched.

smuv - 23-3-2011 at 11:42

True. Though looking at the structures of these compounds...don't you think it is a little overstated how difficult this synthesis is. I mean come on, all you are doing is hydrolizing an amide and sticking a different one on...surely even a bad synthetic chemist who can run a column should be able to pull that off!

Bot0nist - 23-3-2011 at 11:48

I think the reagent acquisition would be more trying than the actual synthesis. I bet many round-about ways would be needed for precursors, unless you have really good connections, as Magic Muzzle pointed out.

Contrabasso - 23-3-2011 at 12:00

Now the REAL challenge would be to synthesise this from say two carbon molecules.
Trouble is though that IF you succeded then the barons would want to eliminate the threat to their profits (you) and the law would want to stop you actually making anything.

smuv - 23-3-2011 at 12:01

Even then, aside from the the actual ergoline starting material, what do you really need that is hard to make? Diethylamine and phosphoryl/thionyl chloride?

Diethylamine should be a sinch to make, in these quantities you could almost just make it from ammonia and ethyl bromide and just separate from the other amines.

A few mL of phosphoryl chloride should be no problem from a few g's of red phosphorous recovered from matchbooks (there is probably even a prep on this site somewhere).

Magic Muzzlet - 23-3-2011 at 12:09

Well thats the thing, the only hard part is getting the precursor. I mean THE precursor, or any number of the few that can be turned into lysergic acid. It really isnt easy. The other stuff is no problem.

smuv - 23-3-2011 at 12:13

lol, I feel like we have come full circle now.

Magic Muzzlet - 23-3-2011 at 12:16

Where else can it go?
All this LSD related stuff has been beaten down on the net.
I'd like to see no more on it unless someone succeeds really.

smuv - 23-3-2011 at 12:24

heh, sorry

. I guess, I didn't realize it had been discussed so much; it is rarely brought up here.

mr.crow - 24-3-2011 at 08:51

All this talk about LSD made me look up the synthesis

"A totally pure salt, when dry and when shaken in the dark, will emit small flashes of white light." HOLY CRAP, how many people get to experience something like that.

What is the purpose of the phosphoryl chloride? I thought it couldn't form acid chlorides. Or does it create the amide in a different way?

Hexagon - 24-3-2011 at 10:17

Yeah go and buy c. paspali from a shroomery forum, you'll not be the first one to get busted by the DEA because of buying that fungus.

piracetam - 24-3-2011 at 14:53

lots of speculation up in this thread.
naysayers could never pull it off, because they've already managed to convince themselves what they think can't be done.

[Edited on 24-3-2011 by piracetam]

ScienceSquirrel - 25-3-2011 at 05:17

Quote: Originally posted by mr.crow

All this talk about LSD made me look up the synthesis

"A totally pure salt, when dry and when shaken in the dark, will emit small flashes of white light." HOLY CRAP, how many people get to experience something like that.

What is the purpose of the phosphoryl chloride? I thought it couldn't form acid chlorides. Or does it create the amide in a different way?

I think it probably goes via a mixed anhydride.

Triboluminescence is a well known phenomenon and you do not need LSD to observe it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triboluminescence

[Edited on 25-3-2011 by ScienceSquirrel]

beergod - 25-3-2011 at 20:24

How did a bunch of intelligent people turn a legal question into a conversation on lsd synthesis in record time? You guys are the first to tear apart a newbie when he does the same thing....

Ephoton - 27-3-2011 at 02:46

na ergots not illegal importing live fungi might be another thing though.

[Edited on 27-3-2011 by Ephoton]

ScienceSquirrel - 28-3-2011 at 03:05

Given that some strains of ergot are potent plant pathogens that attack grain crops I would be wary of cultivating it.
Extracting the alkaloids that are controlled substances is also of dubious legality.

beergod - 28-3-2011 at 21:12

he says this strain cant infect crops... also just because you buy it doesnt mean you are planning to ferment it and extract LSA - thats quite a stretch logically for law enforcement to bother with. Im sure its just fine buying it

Magic Muzzlet - 28-3-2011 at 21:14

Give it a go and let us know how it went

You might be amazed at what law enforcement can be bothered with.

beergod - 28-3-2011 at 21:22

cmon like they are gona set up a reverse sting hinging on on the possibility of using the fungus to produce compounds which will be converted into precursor? While people on there are buying kilos of bark that converts directly into the illegal DMT. I don't have an aseptic setup for working with agar dishes or I would buy it, pretty pricey tho.

ScienceSquirrel - 29-3-2011 at 03:23

It is expensive and ultimately a bit of an exercise in futility if you are not going to make LSA.
If you want to do practical mycology why not cultivate edible fungi like oyster mushrooms which are expensive and yummy or psilocybes which are easy and hallucinogenic?

madscientist - 29-3-2011 at 03:56

They do "reverse stings" all the time. They've even attempted it here. Search for "The Chemical Closet."

And yes, if they find you cultivating this, you are definitely going to prison (at least in the US). Sure, you could try to fight it in court, and convince a jury that's been hammered with Drug War propaganda all their lives that you were just growing it for fun and had no idea it was churning out a precursor to the most (in)famous psychedelic drug on the planet. But that's about as likely to work as claiming you didn't know all those pot plants in your basement were illegal (I just thought they looked nice!). Any sane lawyer would urge you to take a plea deal, and accept 10 years rather than risk 20.

Ephoton - 29-3-2011 at 03:59

I can not find this post on the shroomery

can you let me know were it is you realy have me curious now.

piracetam - 1-4-2011 at 19:57

Quote: Originally posted by madscientist

And yes, if they find you cultivating this, you are definitely going to prison (at least in the US)..

source?

http://www.erowid.org/plants/ergot/ergot_law.shtml

[Edited on 2-4-2011 by piracetam]

beergod - 3-4-2011 at 09:47

That link says:

Quote:

Claviceps purpurea is unscheduled in the U.S., but it is also listed as a "poison" according to U.S.C. Title 21 Chapter 7. This designation as a poison means that products made from ergot must either be labelled "for external use only"; or labelled as a "poison" and records kept about who it is sold to. The fungus itself is legal to cultivate and possess.

One of its constituent chemicals, ergotamine tartrate, is a watched chemical because of its use in the manufacture of LSD. Because of this, the cultivation or possession of large quantities of Claviceps purpurea might be considered suspicious.

[Edited on 3-4-2011 by beergod]

overunity33 - 3-4-2011 at 17:37

Chiming in to say that I received my paspali culture yesterday... I wasn't really worried about it being a problem but after talking to the seller I realised hes a little too educated to be some kind of semi legal sting operation.

piracetam - 3-4-2011 at 18:22

a bit of paranoia is healthy, but it's not very likely that narcs will kick in your door over a paspali plate. the fungus itself doesn't produce alkaloids on an agar plate, only as secondary metabolites in liquid culture

and LSA is C-III

[Edited on 4-4-2011 by piracetam]

mr.crow - 4-4-2011 at 08:43

Quote: Originally posted by overunity33

...after talking to the seller I realised hes a little too educated to be some kind of semi legal sting operation.

Sounds like a real fun-guy!

Rogeryermaw - 11-6-2011 at 16:53

Quote: Originally posted by mr.crow

the phosphoryl or thionyl chloride is for dehydrating the lysergic acid monohydrate so it can react with the diethylamine. the synthesis of lysergic acid from the amide produces the monohydrate crystal using KOH, alcohol, and ammonia to cleave the amide and leave the acid. to obtain the anhydrous form the synthesis is carried out with anhydrous hydrazine which is dangerous so most people prefer the aqueous method. neither method is safe. hydrazine is notoriously explosive and the phosphoryl chloride is no walk in the park either. besides, you would need to have your end product run through spectral analysis and who are you gonna just walk up to and say please test my lsd!

piracetam - 11-6-2011 at 19:39

I run nLC-MS/MS like you run your computer.
Use 18-crown-6 as a complexation reagent to differentiate between the epimers;
they're easily distinguishable on a chromatogram.

[Edited on 12-6-2011 by piracetam]

Rogeryermaw - 12-6-2011 at 07:43

ok ok but does the common jerk off doing chemistry in a small corner sectioned out at home usually have that capability?

piracetam - 12-6-2011 at 08:35

if that common jerk off pursued a path in chemistry academically, then yeah...more than likely.

Rogeryermaw - 12-6-2011 at 08:45

agreed. however that does not apply to most people here. if we all had that benefit we would also be able to source the precursors with less difficulty. me personally i would love to be able to take college chemistry courses, but i have to sit home and play mister mom while the wifey finishes nursing school. then there are the children to care for. chemistry is a wonderful outlet for me but an academic selection? perhaps when the kids graduate and leave home...i will be old and gray before i can even think about it.

anyway, on topic, ergot fungus is dangerous to the user and to crops. the legal implications are more than enough to keep me away from thinking about it.

piracetam - 12-6-2011 at 12:13

ergot is primarily dangerous if consumed, and the nonsporulating variety (producers) are no threat to plants. the legal issue is another matter, and an ambiguous one at that. keep the wheaton bottles away from the petri dishes, and it pretty much looks innocuous.

Rogeryermaw - 12-6-2011 at 14:51

being of ambiguous legality means it will likely come down to who can afford the better lawyers...and that ain't me brother! unless of course it is a jury issue. unfortunately, in my jurisdiction, the jury folk are more educated by the loud southern preacher than common sense and it would be decided by: *deep southern accent* the evils o' drinkin' 'n' drugs 'n' dancin' 'n' immoral sexshality ect. ect. to illustrate, i even live in a dry county. no booze whatsoever. ahh the bible belt is a wonderful place no?

piracetam - 12-6-2011 at 16:18

lol

I hear that.
not dry here, but liquor stores are closed on sundays, and the grocery store won't sell beer before noon:30. bible thumpers are the worst, most hypocritical phux
*preaches to the choir*

[Edited on 13-6-2011 by piracetam]

jon - 9-7-2011 at 11:59

my old man was in chem lab back in the 60's when the fibbies confiscated all the lysergic acid.
think that was '66.
his chem teacher said that pocl3 was the best way to make lsd.
i've always wondered about that too.
why pocl3?
because forming acid chlorides of lysergic acid tend to lead to decomp.
the thing is pybop is really good because of the chirallity of the end product 90% d-epimer.
don't even need to run it through a column.
thing is, some journals say to obtain dry lysergic acid, really harsh conditions and, high vacum are required.
but, from what i've learned, it really is'nt so.
1-2 mm vacum at 80C for about a day gets the job done.
so, pybop might be a good way.
keeping those strictly anhydrous conditions would be a pain in the ass.
probably why most folks just stick to the pocl3, still the favorite method of lsd production.

[Edited on 9-7-2011 by jon]