Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Gun Propellants: Single, Double and Tripple based

Gun Propellants: Single, Double and Tripple based

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specialactivitieSK - 6-9-2021 at 05:35

Another way :

Ng, DeGDN, Balistite Powder maked without solvent : pressing by rolling by temperature 80-95°C for Ng and 70-80°C for DeGDN Powder.. Cutting the Powder by temperature 50°C. Somethime 2-8% solvent (Acetone).

specialactivitieSK - 10-9-2021 at 09:13

Something about size

Bert - 10-9-2021 at 09:54

Sorry, can't quite read sizes in that image... Maybe add that info?

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Attached pdf is largely about forensics related to NC used in propellants & explosives, but note on page 207 the statement about solvents and stirring during manufacturing processes permanently changing the NC molecules, resulting in a rather lower molecular weight NC.

Choice of solvent and degree of mechanical processing have more impact on the product than night be expected.

Attachment: 978-1-61209-821-0_ch4.pdf (1.3MB)
This file has been downloaded 246 times

specialactivitieSK - 13-9-2021 at 11:46

DEGDN Rocket Propellant 25g 960fps

https://youtu.be/AmI_xQEtXzA

ManyInterests - 2-3-2022 at 13:07

I've been reading this thread with great interest since I do plan on making my own powder. There's a lot of good information here and I'll need to reread everything in the future.

But I have one question regarding NG, EGDN, and PGDN... in terms of stability when it comes to making, is EGDN better than NG or the other way around? What about PGDN? I heard that it is safer than NG but is harder to make. Would it be useful for making a double base powder as well?

dettoo456 - 14-3-2022 at 08:08

I don’t currently have the exact numbers with me at the moment but in terms of sensitivity and synthesis EGDN edges out NG in that it’s safer to produce and initiate when you want it to but is much more volatile and degrades with the presence of impurities more readily in storage if I remember correctly. OB% is also slightly higher with NG too which really matters for propellants when taking burn rate catalysts and stabilizer OB%’s into effect.

So NG is better than EGDN for performance but worse than EGDN for safety reasons; pick your battles with that one.

PGDN’s synthesis is similar to other nitrate esters and although I don’t have the numbers right now, I’m pretty sure its mechanical sensitivities are at least lower than EGDN (and by proxy lower than NG) from the addition of an extra CH3 group. OB% is of course lower as well in PGDN.

https://ipo.lukasiewicz.gov.pl/wydawnictwa/wp-content/upload... ^ Some useful info PGDN’s vapor and storage behavior.

“Nitrate Esters Chemistry and Technology” is a good book for finding info on nitrate esters and their properties although some info gets lost in translation from mandarin.

The “big players” (if you will) like BTTN and TMETN will always outshine the simple esters and if you have some spare malic acid and Pt hydrogenation catalysts, or propionaldehyde and formaldehyde then you can try with them but other than that the classic NG is proven and capable for most propellants applications so I’d recommend it over EGDN or PGDN.

specialactivitieSK - 26-7-2022 at 03:10

Maybe very slow evaporation is the way

Bert - 26-7-2022 at 03:47

Quote: Originally posted by specialactivitieSK

Maybe very slow evaporation is the way

Sorry, way to do what?

specialactivitieSK - 26-7-2022 at 04:16

To making material without bubbles.

ManyInterests - 2-9-2022 at 11:16

Quote: Originally posted by dettoo456

I don’t currently have the exact numbers with me at the moment but in terms of sensitivity and synthesis EGDN edges out NG in that it’s safer to produce and initiate when you want it to but is much more volatile and degrades with the presence of impurities more readily in storage if I remember correctly. OB% is also slightly higher with NG too which really matters for propellants when taking burn rate catalysts and stabilizer OB%’s into effect.

So NG is better than EGDN for performance but worse than EGDN for safety reasons; pick your battles with that one.

PGDN’s synthesis is similar to other nitrate esters and although I don’t have the numbers right now, I’m pretty sure its mechanical sensitivities are at least lower than EGDN (and by proxy lower than NG) from the addition of an extra CH3 group. OB% is of course lower as well in PGDN.

https://ipo.lukasiewicz.gov.pl/wydawnictwa/wp-content/upload... ^ Some useful info PGDN’s vapor and storage behavior.

“Nitrate Esters Chemistry and Technology” is a good book for finding info on nitrate esters and their properties although some info gets lost in translation from mandarin.

The “big players” (if you will) like BTTN and TMETN will always outshine the simple esters and if you have some spare malic acid and Pt hydrogenation catalysts, or propionaldehyde and formaldehyde then you can try with them but other than that the classic NG is proven and capable for most propellants applications so I’d recommend it over EGDN or PGDN.

I forgot to thank you for that answer. Yes I have learned about the volatility of EGDN and PGDN (PGDN is slightly less volatile than EGDN) but NG's volatility is non-existent.

BTW, what exactly is BTTN and TMETN? What are the reagents involved? Anything different in their synthesis from EGDN, NG, or PGDN?

Bert - 2-9-2022 at 12:13

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests

Yes I have learned about the volatility of EGDN and PGDN (PGDN is slightly less volatile than EGDN) but NG's volatility is non-existent.

From personal experience, NG volatility may be considered TRIVIAL in regards to all going away under decent storage conditions- But several splitting headaches I've experienced say it does exist.

The couple of tries I made at classic low freezing dynamite mixtures long, long ago with the method of nitrating mixed glycerin + EGDN gave me a formidable headache very quickly during the final processing with dry ingredients, I'm quite sure it was vapors rather than skin contact, I wore gloves and was careful- At least it went away faster than an NG headache too.

BTTN and TMETN?

BTTN = 1,2,4-Butanetriol Trinitrate

1,2,4-Butanetriol_trinitrate.svg.png - 35kB

TMTEN = Nitropentaglycerin; 1,1,1-trimethylolethane trinitrate

[Edited on 9-2-2022 by Bert]

[Edited on 9-2-2022 by Bert]

ManyInterests - 3-9-2022 at 19:46

Those look really good. If they can be more stable and higher performing than NG, I might be interested in experimented in making some. Though I don't know any sources of Butanetriol.

Triethylene glycol is another chemical that can be used to make a liquid explosive and can substitute NG. Any sources of that? It isn't Ethylene Glycol for sure (and I have a liter of that).

specialactivitieSK - 8-9-2022 at 07:24

Second attempt at slow evaporation. I need to find suitable kitchen utensils with a completely flat bottom.

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