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Author: Subject: 6km/sec VOD From Cast NaCLO4 Composition
jpsmith123
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[*] posted on 26-6-2005 at 01:00
6km/sec VOD From Cast NaCLO4 Composition


Hello,

I found an interesting group of 3 related U.S. patents (assignee: Dyno Nobel Inc.), regarding a castable, cap-sensitive NaCLO4 composition.

I thought I'd share it here in casy anyone else may be interested.

Spefically, what I though was interesting is the high detonation velocity of approximately 6km/sec claimed for this composition; vis-a-vis the cheddites, for example, which are apparently only about half as great.

According to the patents, the composition (in various similar embodiments) has a density of around 1.5 to 1.8 gm/cc.

The higher density, higher perchlorate percentage mixtures seem to be capable of punching a hole in a 3/4 inch steel witness plate.

According to the patent, the main use is intended to be as "a booster or primer and as a seismic explosive in both normal and small sizes."

The patent numbers are 5665935, 5670741, and 5880399. (In case anyone wants to look at these, I have them in pdf format but they are about 500 kbytes each. Is that too big to upload here?)

The preferred embodiment uses sodium perchlorate as the oxidizer and diethylene glycol as the fuel component; also included is water (a few percent), a thickener of guar or xanthan gum, and some other optional ingredients.

I wonder if other chlorates or perchlorates would give even better performance?

I wonder if glycerine, for example, would work as well as diethylene glycol as the fuel component?

Regards,
Joe
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Maniak
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thumbup.gif posted on 26-6-2005 at 03:12


I was interested in this kind of explosives a few years ago - I found the third patent and tried similar mixture:

66%NaClO4 + 9%H2O + 25%ethylenglycol

Sodium perchlorate monohydrate (contains 12,8mol.% water) and no water were used, but still there were particles of solid perchlorate in the fluid - EG is not so good as DEG. Anyway, I'm sure it should be called "brizant explosive", because it's incomparable to some cheddites or the like...
Glycerine might be used, but I think it will dissolve perchlorate much less than EG or even DEG...

Other perchlorates like LiClO4 or Mg(ClO4)2 should be interesting and worth trying because of higher oxygen percentage...
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jpsmith123
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[*] posted on 26-6-2005 at 04:17


I wonder how critical the solubility of the oxidizer in the fuel is, in this composition?

According to the 5,670,741 patent: "[T]he preferred fuel is a liquid, water soluble, oxygenated organic material of low volatility. Examples of the preferred fuel include polyhydric alcohols such as glycerol, ethylene glycol, diethylene glycol, triethylene glycol, tetraethylene glycol, propylene glycol, dipropylene glycol, tripropylene glycol, and mixtures thereof."

Yet it seems the inventors used only DEG, and in patent 5,880,399, only DEG is mentioned; so maybe this is the best fuel.

In any case, I'm wondering, what did you use for a thickening agent and did you use a crosslinking agent?

And also, what was your composition like after it cured?
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MadHatter
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[*] posted on 26-6-2005 at 05:48
Sprengel Explosives


Sounds similar to what this thread is describing. One mixture, called rackarock, is made with
potassium chlorate and mononitrobenzene. It was used in New York City to blast out the
Hell Gate Channel on the East River. Right now, I can't find any VODs on this mixture.




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Maniak
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[*] posted on 26-6-2005 at 09:36


I used no gelants or crosslinkers - my explosive was just liquid and was poured into a plastic cup...but I think some gums (guar, arabic) or polyacrylamide may be used to prepare semiplastic or gel explosive. Another way - you can use it as densifying agent for DAP or the like...

If the oxidizer isn't dissolved, the mixture is not completely homogenous => small amount of undissolved perchlorate is not critical;)

"rackarock" mixture is very different - it has liquid and solid phase - MNB can't dissolve any anorganic oxidiser - Vdet is probably much lower, maybe about 3000-4000ms-1 in high diameter charges:(
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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 26-6-2005 at 10:53


Mixtures of urea perchlorate , hexamine diperchlorate , and ammonium perchlorate in some combination of binary
or perhaps tertiary mixtures could also result in some interesting compositions .
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[*] posted on 26-6-2005 at 19:41


Note that if it is diethylene glycol that is a stumbling block then may I bring to your attention that diethylene glycol is fairly avalible over the counter (98+% in some instances) in those little heating containers for keeping food hot at banquets. Also note that some brake fluids contain appreciable diethylene glycol though I don't know how stable they would be to sodium perchlorate as mixing some of them with 'pool chlorinators' as a few news programs in my area showed a while ago can lead to ignition/explosion of the mixture.



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12AX7
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[*] posted on 26-6-2005 at 21:45


Yeah, but pool chlorinators produce chlorine, a much lower oxidation state than perchlorate. Seems to me hypochlorites oxidize damned near anything, whereas chlorates and especially perchlorates are relatively stable. ClO4- withstands concentrated acids!

Ethylene glycol is also antifreeze, humm, I am suddenly disturbed by the mining-scale explosion a gallon of this material could produce. :D

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jpsmith123
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[*] posted on 27-6-2005 at 00:07


I think I may get around to trying it one of these days using some glycerine and some DEG from "Blaze Canned Fuel", which I assume wouldn't have any unwanted additives like antifreeze probably would.

I think I will try both sodium perchlorate and ammonium perchlorate (as Rosco suggested).

Also, I think I will try using guar gum as a gelling agent with boric acid (or borax) as a cross linking agent (see patent #6838449).

I'm very curious to see what this stuff looks like after it cures.
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[*] posted on 27-6-2005 at 04:03


Be sure that mixtures with organic perchlorates are much more sensitive and dangerous and they are more unstable because of hydrolyze:(
But one think which works well - mixture of aq. solution of urea perchlorate (freshly prepared by mixing 70%perchloric acid with urea) with a stechiometric amount of nitromethane, for example:

85%aq. UP + 15%NM

It is oily liquid (dens. 1,4g/cm3), sensitive to cup no.8 with Vdet = 6000-7000m/s, according to US pat. no. 4,047,987
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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 27-6-2005 at 07:17


Purely theoretical .......

It would seem logical that an oxygen balanced mixture of urea nitrate and ammonium perchlorate would be a very powerful composition . There would likely
be some reaction between the mixed dry or slightly moistened and warmed materials , which would form urea perchlorate and ammonium nitrate by
double decomposition to some extent , resulting in an oxygen balanced quaternary mixture containing :

urea perchlorate
ammonium perchlorate
urea nitrate
ammonium nitrate

Such a mixture could have eutectic properties , even being liquid at mild
temperatures . It could perhaps have interest as a monopropellant as well as
an explosive .

EDIT : After checking the oxygen balance , it doesn't appear that this is workable . The OB mixture would be about 4.2 grams of urea nitrate with 1 gram of ammonium perchlorate . Such a composition would probably not show much improvement over regular urea nitrate . Better would be an OB mixture of urea perchlorate formed separately and then mixed with urea nitrate .

Methylamine Perchlorate is more interesting . See the attachment on the next post .

[Edited on 27-6-2005 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 27-6-2005 at 13:25
methylamine perchlorate


Methylamine perchlorate is described as having good stability and power , and only slightly hygroscopic .

Attachment: GB168333 methylamine perchlorate.pdf (151kB)
This file has been downloaded 1435 times

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jpsmith123
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[*] posted on 2-7-2005 at 02:36


Thanks for that interesting patent regarding methylamine perchlorate.

BTW, it seems the commercial sodium perchlorate explosive is called "Dynoseis".

According to the MSDS, the proportions are as follows:

Sodium Perchlorate (CAS 7601-89-0) 66 to 72%
Diethylene Glycol (CAS 111-46-6) 22 to 27%

I couldn't find any published performance specifications (at least in any Dyno Nobel literature) , but I did find some data from another company that supposedly tested it.
Density: 1.78 c/cc
Det. Velocity: 22,000 ft/sec
Det. Pressure: 200 Kbar
Gas Volume: 23.2 moles/kg
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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 2-7-2005 at 08:13


There is a reaction for mixtures of formaldehyde and ammonium nitrate ,
along with a small proportion of urea ,
which results in formation of methylamine nitrate , along with lesser amounts of di and tri methylamine nitrates .

It seems likely that a similar reaction may occur with ammonium perchlorate substituted for ammonium nitrate , with the result being a mixture of the analogous methylamine perchlorate derivatives .

Certainly the in situ formation of such a mixture from more economical precursors would be more desirable than having to work with free perchloric acid and free amine .

The relevant patents for the reaction are
EP0037862
GB1548827
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Madandcrazy
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[*] posted on 17-7-2005 at 06:56


Likely the mixtures have the same proberties ;) as some rocket propellants of
the military.

mixtures of
ammonium chlorate/perchlorate and
aluminium powder by molecular wight ...

[Edited on 17-7-2005 by Madandcrazy]
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neutrino
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[*] posted on 17-7-2005 at 09:55


Ammonium chlorate is avoided like the plague because it spontaneously (dangerously) decomposes.
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[*] posted on 28-7-2005 at 09:24


A mixture of ammonium perchlorate and aluminum powder is used in the booster rockets for the space shuttle.

Ref: Kotz, John C. and Treichel, Paul M. Chemistry & Chemical Reactivity. 5th edition. Pg 915. 2003.
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[*] posted on 12-8-2005 at 08:55


After looking into it some more, I think the key to the performance of this stuff is the fact that the oxidizer *dissolves*, to a certain extent in the fuel.

The increased detonation velocity apparently results from the "molecular adjacency" between oxidizer and fuel molecules you get merely because of the fact that it's in solution. Apparently, in this situation, it's almost like having a molecular explosive.

Apparently it doesn't matter that not all of the oxidizer dissolves (the gelling prevents the excess from settling), if you get enough to dissolve, it supports high velocity detonation.
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[*] posted on 12-8-2005 at 11:16


Sounds like it wouldn't hurt to stir it in hot, then crash cool it. Or better still, KClO3/4 grain refiner anyone?

(Grain refiner is essentially seed crystals that aren't very soluble in solution but the primary solute precipitates grows on easily. Such things as titanium boride (TiB2) and zirconium are used as grain refiners for aluminum and copper alloys.)

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[*] posted on 18-8-2005 at 02:14


Maniak, could you describe exactly what explosive did you try?
What was the diameter and what initiator did you used.
Was it more powerful than rack/a/rock.

I have tried stechiometric ammonium perchlorate and diesel fuel. 5 grams RDX was not sufficent detonator.




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Maniak
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[*] posted on 19-8-2005 at 04:53


Mixtures of aqueous solutions of perchlorates with fuels are much different from rackarock - components are much better homogenised (liquid or cast) and there is contact on the molecular level => these mixtures are much more brizant and have much higher VoD. These liquid explosives are just slightly less powerfull than some hellhofites and are incomparable to AN-fuel type expl.

I usualy pack this kind of explosives into some film can or similar container with diameter 25-30mm and fire it with standard detonator (0,7g pressed PETN + 0,2g LA in thinwalled Al cup). Of course, this package is inpractical, it's just for testing.

Your output is quite strange - 5g RDX is really enough to detonate your mixture. Try to use better fuel or just perchlorate which is partially soluble in the fuel.

[Edited on 19-8-2005 by Maniak]
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[*] posted on 20-8-2005 at 04:25


I will try NH4ClO4 + 1,3-propandiol in the beginning of October.

Yes, 5 grams RDX was not sufficent to initiate complete detonation (NH4ClO4 - diesel). The diameter was 3cm, plastic pill box. The whole box was shattered, the brick near the device was shattered too, but tiny particled of the mix were observed glued to the brick particles.
The reason of the low sensitivity was that the NH4ClO4 particles become wet with diesel, and the perchlorate is insoluble in diesel.
Ammonium perchlorate with 10% hexamine (dry mix) detonates readily from 5 grams RDX or 7 grams HMTD (never tried less powerful det). The mixture has 150% the phugass power of TNT and 90% brizance (brizance depending on how well mixed). Diameter 5 cm. One drawback is the mild hygroscopic hexamine...




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[*] posted on 21-8-2005 at 00:37
Request for software relating to Detonics


Quote:
Originally posted by jpsmith123
.....I couldn't find any published performance specifications (at least in any Dyno Nobel literature) , but I did find some data from another company that supposedly tested it.....

I am sorry to wander off topic here, but I could not resist asking:

Dose anyone have access to software relating to "Detonics". Software to be used to predict detonation velocity, critical diameter, output energy, effective energy, DDT ect. The reason I quoted Jpsmith123, is because he may have access to Dyno Nobel software:

* 2d Bench - Blast design software for performing timing simulations, load and energy factors, costs, and blasting records.

* 2d View - For viewing designs developed in 2d Bench in 3 dimensions.

* JK Energy Distribution - For viewing energy contours and distribution for design developed in 2d Bench.

* Pro Blast - Practical blast design and cost optimiser that compares two designs using important criteria such as energy factors, powder factors, simulated fragmentation, drill requirements, drilling, explosive and loading costs.

* Pro Bench - Software custom designed for the Mine that adapts the Pro Blast Program in order to evaluate four designs with multiple production blast rows that are each loaded with separate loading schemes. Also has a graphic display in order to compare visually design with decks and angled holes.

* Pro Dig - Excavator productivity program that evaluates blast performance on cycle times to load haul trucks to compare varying blast designs and loading conditions.

And now my two cents to stay on topic:

Simply RED, when you mix Diesel oil with a small amounts of Ammonium perchlorate, it is important to let natural caking do it's work. By just premixing the two, you will introduce erratic density spots. Erratic density can even let an overcritical diameter charge die out. Because you are using such small ammounts, a natural caking process may be beneficial. The detonator has to be put into the Ammonium perchlorate first, and only then the Diesel oil must be added. After this mix has performd a natural caking process, and left undisturbed, it may be detonated. The Ammonium perchlorate must not be packed to tightly though. Using Ammonium perchlorate in Slurry explosives, has less drawbacks. Aluminium powder and /or Nitro methane are good sensitisers and fuels.

[Edited on 21-8-2005 by Lambda]
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[*] posted on 22-8-2005 at 04:41


Diesel fuel - NH4CLO4 is awful mix...
I may try also adding Al to soluble fuel- perchlorate.




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[*] posted on 3-1-2006 at 09:07


if you are looking for a solid fuel rocket try polyurethene and ammonium perchlorate this was used in U.S. in bosters, icbms, and other bosters
another liquid fuel mix- a bomb if mixed together
is dimethylhydrazine and nitrogentetroxide
a liquid fuel rocket used for American Cold war material.
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