Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Fun Phosphorus Speculations

PhenethylamineMachine - 20-4-2018 at 06:45

Just some thought for fun:

While listening to a UFO enthusiast that I know ramble on about the Egyptians and light bulbs I was instantly reminded of hennig Brandt and his "cold fire" bulbs. I think a white phosphorus lamp is far more likely than the Egyptians having developed advanced technology or having extraterrestrial friends.

I'm sure you all know how phosphorus was discovered.

In 1669 Hennig Brandt, an alchemist, was working with urine in search for the lapis philosophorum. Hennig ultimately ended up stumbling upon "cold fire", which was a mixture containing white phosphorus obtained from urine along with some other common ingredients in a glass bulb. The result was light emanating from the substance(s) contained in the flask.
Quote:

How to Make Phosphorus

Allow urine to sit in an open container for 7 days.

Mix two tablespoons of finely-powdered charcoal and two tablespoons of powdered cinnamon into the urine and stir.

Pour the urine/charcoal dust and cinnamon mixture into a glass retort with a glass tube leading into a second beaker filled with plain water.

Heat the retort containing the urine mixture using your torch. Be sure to wear protective clothing, eye protection and a breathing mask.

Allow the vapors from the urine mixture to bubble through the plain water. A yellow or white waxy substance will collect in the bottom of your water beaker. This is phosphorous. Do not expose it to the air or it may ignite spontaneously. After being exposed to light your phosphorous should glow very brightly in the dark for several hours.

https://sciencing.com/make-phosphorus-4524329.html


You know how in Egypt there are temples with detailed carvings on the walls where light would not have been readily available?

In these temples mirrors reflecting sunlight would not have been effective, and evidence for fire being used is non-existent.

Do you think it's possible that the ancient Egyptians might have also known how to create phosphorus lamps starting from urine?

Could carvings such as "the dendera bulb" actually be representing phosphorus lamps?

keep in mind that this is all just for fun, I don't take these notions seriously, but find it entertaining to speculate.

MrHomeScientist - 20-4-2018 at 06:50

I think it's interesting to compare the above process for making phosphorus to the ones being done in the phosphorus thread. This one seems immensely easier, with practically free ingredients, yet no one seems to want to replicate it! Because of the horrible stench, perhaps? :P Or is there another more practical reason?

Magpie - 20-4-2018 at 07:19

Stench is no problem, just turn on the hood fan.

I believe the phosphorus in urine is in the form of phosphates, ie, locked to oxygen.

This simple procedure gives no hint of the tremendous heat required to reduce a phosphate to phosphorus.

What the heck is cinnamon for? Mask the stench? It would just be a reductant less efficient than charcoal.

Try it yourself if you think it is so simple.

Sulaiman - 20-4-2018 at 08:42

Burning phosphorus would create clouds of P2O10 smoke
- killing the viewers,
and the fumes would combine with water and erase the drawings so there would be nothing to view.
Apart from that it may be OK :P

Ubya - 20-4-2018 at 09:03

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
Burning phosphorus would create clouds of P2O10 smoke
- killing the viewers,
and the fumes would combine with water and erase the drawings so there would be nothing to view.
Apart from that it may be OK :P


phosphoric acid from pee wax candles, a simple stick on fire is too mainstream for ancient egyptians

MrHomeScientist - 20-4-2018 at 10:22

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
Stench is no problem, just turn on the hood fan.

I believe the phosphorus in urine is in the form of phosphates, ie, locked to oxygen.

This simple procedure gives no hint of the tremendous heat required to reduce a phosphate to phosphorus.

What the heck is cinnamon for? Mask the stench? It would just be a reductant less efficient than charcoal.

Try it yourself if you think it is so simple.

I hope I didn't come off as condescending; that wasn't the intent. I just know that it was made from urine back in ye olde times and haven't seen many try to replicate it. I wondered if this was because of the unpleasantness of the reagents or whether 'modern' methods are easier in some other way I haven't understood.

While a hood fan might work for you, your neighbors might not be so happy about it! :P

mayko - 20-4-2018 at 11:09

Brand's process was also a massive undertaking (partly because it was inefficient) and iirc required many, uh, donations from his neighbors:
Quote:

Brand's process yielded far less phosphorus than it could have done. The salt part he discarded contained most of the phosphate. He used about 5,500 litres of urine to produce just 120 grams of phosphorus. If he had ground up the entire residue he could have got many times more than this (1 litre of adult human urine contains about 1.4g of phosphorus salts, which amounts to around 0.11 grams of pure white phosphorus).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hennig_Brand

sodium_stearate - 21-4-2018 at 06:27

With just a few more added free ingredients,
you could make up a batch of jenkum. :o:o

PhenethylamineMachine - 21-4-2018 at 06:49

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
Burning phosphorus would create clouds of P2O10 smoke
- killing the viewers,
and the fumes would combine with water and erase the drawings so there would be nothing to view.
Apart from that it may be OK :P


Have you ever actually seen a phosphorus lamp?

We made phosphorus lamps from urine in my chemistry class in 11th grade, it's actually pretty simple.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GIGOF_In9BM
In this one minute youtube video titled "Strange story of how phosphorus was discovered"* you can see how simple it is to create a phosphorus lamp.
*the link is a mobile youtube link, if it does not work, type: "Strange story of how phosphorus was discovered" into youtube, it's a 1:37 video.

I expected there to be a joke or two, and as I said before this is not something I take seriously, it's all in good fun, but honestly, if one were to speculate within the realms of what is possible, I think phosphorous lamps generated from urine are a better explanation than "Egyptians had advanced technology" or "Egyptians had extra-terrestrial buddies who gave them technology"

Again, this is all in good fun, I am not trying to imply that the Egyptians had phosphorus lamps, just speculating for fun, I was more or less trying to offer a better possible explanation than "ancient tech" or "aliens" when debating with those who support these theories about ancient Egyptians.

PhenethylamineMachine - 21-4-2018 at 06:52

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
I think it's interesting to compare the above process for making phosphorus to the ones being done in the phosphorus thread. This one seems immensely easier, with practically free ingredients, yet no one seems to want to replicate it! Because of the horrible stench, perhaps? :P Or is there another more practical reason?


I was wondering the same thing.

This route to obtaining phosphorus surly has it's setbacks and limitations, and the procedure does not give very high yields, but it is a viable route. ...it may not be the best route, or the most practical, but it is a viable route

PhenethylamineMachine - 21-4-2018 at 07:05

Quote: Originally posted by sodium_stearate  
With just a few more added free ingredients,
you could make up a batch of jenkum. :o:o


I expected some jokes.

...but in all honesty, the human body is a chemical laboratory.

Ill give you a quick hypothetical example:

Let's say you have a compound, and you want to obtain the same compound only with a certain section cleaved off, so, you do your research and find that in the laboratory the procedure would require many steps, chemicals that are difficult to work with, and also could be very hazardous, but you also found that the human body could metabolize this compound into your desired cleaved compound, which it would then excrete through urine. In theory you could consume your compound, collect your urine, and then extract your desired cleaved compound from it. This is all just hypothetical, but in the situation described your body is working as the laboratory... biosynthesis is a very interesting concept.

PhenethylamineMachine - 21-4-2018 at 07:27

If this next question is not appropriate I encourage a moderator to remove it.

You know how you hear rumours that methamphetamine is manufactured with urine?

Do you think these amphetamine "chemists" were actually obtaining the white phosphorus allotrope from urine, converting it to the red allotrope, then using it to synthesize illicit stimulants?

Is this the source of these rumours?

Well, the rumours range from "people pee in meth" to "people use pee to make meth", and I always assumed that it was just nonsense.

important note:
While I focus a good deal of my research on phenethylamines, I truly despise the illicit manufacture of methamphetamine and the effects that the compound has on individual people, on their families, and on their communities. I even have to refer to the psychedelic amphetamines as "alpha-methyl-phenethylamines" in normal conversation simply so I can avoid all the negative connotations attached to the word "amphetamine", becuase people automatically assume you are talking about stimulants, dopamine releasing agents/dopamine reuptake inhibitors rather than psychedelics, 5-HT2a/c receptor agonists. I have no interest in illicit stimulants or the means by which they are produced.
I am only including this note because I always feel that I have to make this clear, as many people misunderstand the nature of my interests and the compounds associated with them.

LearnedAmateur - 21-4-2018 at 07:27

Considering the fact electrical cells have been around for thousands of years, using acidic fruit juices and simple electrodes, as well as fermentation to get ethanol about 5000 years ago, I have no doubts that human/animal products have been used for advanced and highly intuitive uses within ancient and Neolithic societies. If there’s one thing humans have always been good at, it’s chemistry and figuring out how to make use of literally every natural resource available.

PhenethylamineMachine - 21-4-2018 at 10:16

Speaking of possible ancient chemistry:

There is a biblical story about Elijah and the "priests of Baal", ultimately it comes down to a competition between to two religious factions, each builds an alter and the faction worshiping the true God will have their alter catch fire. Elijah builds his alter in a very specific way, including a ditch dug around the alter. Elijah then has his followers pour water on the alter and it catches fire. Elijah wins, and the followers of Baal are brutally murdered.

I remember seeing some science show where it was proposed that Elijah used calcium oxide, sulphur, and naphtha mixed into a paste which was applied to the wood to start the fire with water.

The idea was that at some point he had obtained this chemical knowledge, and that he basically used this discovered knowledge of chemistry to decieve (and murder) the followers of Baal, making them believe that God set the fire, when in reality it was some clever chemistry.

It is plausible, Elijah had access to the needed materials.

Calcium oxide and water would generate an exothermic reaction, generating temperatures of over 600°F, which should be sufficient to cause the sulphur to flash igniting the naphtha accelerant causing the alter to catch fire. The note that Elijah dug a Dutch around the alter is important as well, as the water would have to drain into this ditch to cause ignition without causing the fire to be extinguished

I am sure that a good deal of "magic" reported throughout history in reality was chemistry of some sort, I mean, who knows how many people made these discoveries and kept them secret.

aga - 21-4-2018 at 10:30

Quote: Originally posted by PhenethylamineMachine  
... who knows how many people made these discoveries and kept them secret.

Me, but i'm not saying anything.

BromicAcid - 21-4-2018 at 10:35

Quote: Originally posted by PhenethylamineMachine  
Calcium oxide and water would generate an exothermic reaction, generating temperatures of over 600°F,


Source?

PhenethylamineMachine - 21-4-2018 at 10:38

Just for fun, let's compare brandt's "cold fire lamp" to the egyptian "dendera bulb"

joseph_wright_of_derby_the_alchemist-1-_slide-b2793277121ff321a1c245ee423cc49c3304c251-s1100-c15.jpg - 31kB cd4d0dd894a4d5982786ff317ca3a832--ancient-aliens-ancient-egypt.jpg - 12kB

Now, let's view a pictured an actual phosphorus lamp: images.jpeg - 2kB

according to the individual that I was debating there are egyptian temples full of detailed wall carvings where light would not have been available, even using mirrors reflecting the sun, there is also no evidence that fire was used. Now, UFO enthusiasts think that this must mean that the Egyptians had modern technology or that friendly extra-terrestrials were giving them advanced technology, when I think there are other much more reasonable and rational explanations. The lamps made from glowing phosphorus which was obtained from urine being one of them.

Any way, very interesting stuff none the less, fun thoughts.

Sometimes it's nice to take a break from strictly fact based discussion and let loose with some wild speculations.

PhenethylamineMachine - 21-4-2018 at 11:04

Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid  
Quote: Originally posted by PhenethylamineMachine  
Calcium oxide and water would generate an exothermic reaction, generating temperatures of over 600°F,


Source?


Mea culpa, the 600°c was related to a thermal decomposition reaction related to the substance, thank you for catching that.

The heat produced by the exothermic reaction generated by the calcium oxide and water should be sufficient though, reaching 300°c or more, sulphur should ignite at 200°c, and the exothermic heat from the calcium oxide coupled with the heat generated from the ignition of the sulphur should be enough to ignite the naphtha accelerant thus causing the alter to catch fire.



aga - 21-4-2018 at 11:12

The troubling thing with the Egyptian depictions is that curly wire in the middle - not at an edge, and not two wiggly wires.

Edit:

Some speculate that the flower-stem part at the bottom is just a support structure for the 'lamp'.

Many argue that there is significance in the two guys playing rock-stone-scissors and the woman watching TV, also that the 'stem' ends where there is a small monkey on acid balancing a ball on his head.

[Edited on 21-4-2018 by aga]

PhenethylamineMachine - 21-4-2018 at 11:13

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by PhenethylamineMachine  
... who knows how many people made these discoveries and kept them secret.

Me, but i'm not saying anything.


If only you existed in biblical times, you could use your chemical secrets to take over the world.

PhenethylamineMachine - 21-4-2018 at 11:15

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
The troubling thing with the Egyptian depictions is that curly wire in the middle - not at an edge, and not two wiggly wires.


Yeah, I thought of that as well, perhaps it's a representation of "glowing", like it's the glow of the phosphorus filling the bulb.

But yeah, you're right, its a long shot.

aga - 21-4-2018 at 11:17

What do you mean IF i existed in Biblical times ?

Get with the program.

BromicAcid - 21-4-2018 at 11:28

Quote: Originally posted by PhenethylamineMachine  

The heat produced by the exothermic reaction generated by the calcium oxide and water should be sufficient though, reaching 300°c or more,


Source?

Melgar - 22-4-2018 at 04:27

I think that Egyptians probably used those lamps like the genie was trapped in in the movie Aladdin.

Problem solved.

VSEPR_VOID - 23-4-2018 at 05:04

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
I think that Egyptians probably used those lamps like the genie was trapped in in the movie Aladdin.

Problem solved.


Does that count as a citation?

PhenethylamineMachine - 23-4-2018 at 05:27

Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid  
Quote: Originally posted by PhenethylamineMachine  

The heat produced by the exothermic reaction generated by the calcium oxide and water should be sufficient though, reaching 300°c or more,


Source?


My 10th grade chemistry class.

Like I said, this concept came from a science television program, in class we watched the program, divided into groups, then each group had to produce a model alter that would catch fire with water added using only calcium oxide, sulphur, and naphtha. We did everything Elijah did, except for slaughter a cow on the alter, and sure enough it worked, however, that ditch dug around the alter is crucial.

...any way, I am sure that my answer is still not acceptable for you, so I very quickly skimmed the Wikipedia page for calcium oxide where it states that a reaction with H20 Will produce temperatures of around 300°C.
Quote:

Drops of water are added to pieces of quicklime. After a while, a pronounced exothermic reaction occurs ('slaking of lime'). The temperature can reach up to some 300 °С. -Wikipedia

PhenethylamineMachine - 23-4-2018 at 05:47

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
I think that Egyptians probably used those lamps like the genie was trapped in in the movie Aladdin.

Problem solved.


Oil lamps?

Possible. But it's really beside the point.

The person I was debating explained the situation as follows: there were wall carvings found deep in a temple, they were found in places where light would not have been available, even if using mirrors reflecting the sun. It was also argued that there was no evidence that fire was used such as residue on the walls or proper ventilation.

So I was thinking, if the Egyptians built the pyramids I am sure they could have figured out how to make "pee lamps". Maybe hennig Brand was simply making a re-discovery.

About the "dendera bulb" you would not expect it to be an exact representation, there would have been artistic interpretations as well as the possible need to keep the methods by which they were produced a secret. We still don't know much about "Greek fire" because the information was compartmentalized between the soldiers deploying it...

...this goes along with what I was saying before, we do not know how many ancients made discoveries in chemistry and decided to keep them secret.

Any way, its a very long shot, but I still see "egyptian phosphorus lamps" as being a viable option.


Quote:

The chemical reaction Brand stumbled on was as follows. Urine contains phosphates PO43−, as sodium phosphate (i.e. with Na+), and various carbon-based organics. Under strong heat the oxygens from the phosphate react with carbon to produce carbon monoxide CO, leaving elemental phosphorus P, which comes off as a gas. Phosphorus condenses to a liquid below about 280°C and then solidifies (to the white phosphorus allotrope) below about 44°C (depending on purity). This same essential reaction is still used today (but with mined phosphate ores, coke for carbon, and electric furnaces).
-Wikipedia




Sulaiman - 23-4-2018 at 06:21

Quote: Originally posted by PhenethylamineMachine  

The person I was debating explained the situation as follows: there were wall carvings found deep in a temple, they were found in places where light would not have been available, even if using mirrors reflecting the sun. It was also argued that there was no evidence that fire was used such as residue on the walls or proper ventilation.
...
this goes along with what I was saying before, we do not know how many ancients made discoveries in chemistry and decided to keep them secret.

Any way, its a very long shot, but I still see "egyptian phosphorus lamps" as being a viable opti



I prefer simpler arguments;
. AFAIK pyramids were for a single burial ceremony then sealed, so only short-term lighting was required
. If a body can get from outside to inside then a relay of mirrors will work
. Much of the work would have been done during construction - in daylight

BromicAcid - 23-4-2018 at 15:54

@PhenethylamineMachine-

Thank you for providing at least some sort of reference for your claim. If you look at my first quote you will see that I quoted you as saying the reaction reached 'temperatures of over 600°F' but when I asked for a source you responded:
Quote:
Mea culpa, the 600°c was related to a thermal decomposition reaction related to the substance, thank you for catching that.

The heat produced by the exothermic reaction generated by the calcium oxide and water should be sufficient though, reaching 300°c or more


But you hadn't said 600°C in the OP, you had said 600°F. You then said it would reach 300°C. With 300°C being 572°F you were, it appeared, talking in circles since the numbers were fairly close. Hence I pressed for a source again as 300°C is an impressive figure (additionally I had searched for heat of hydrolysis of calcium oxide and found a literature paper on different types of concrete with neat Portland Cement having +100°C having the highest heat of hydrolysis of the listed components).

Apologies if I made you feel defensive, I was honestly just curious.

PhenethylamineMachine - 26-4-2018 at 06:12

Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid  
@PhenethylamineMachine-

Thank you for providing at least some sort of reference for your claim. If you look at my first quote you will see that I quoted you as saying the reaction reached 'temperatures of over 600°F' but when I asked for a source you responded:

Quote:
Mea culpa, the 600°c was related to a thermal decomposition reaction related to the substance, thank you for catching that.

The heat produced by the exothermic reaction generated by the calcium oxide and water should be sufficient though, reaching 300°c or more


But you hadn't said 600°C in the OP, you had said 600°F. You then said it would reach 300°C. With 300°C being 572°F you were, it appeared, talking in circles since the numbers were fairly close. Hence I pressed for a source again as 300°C is an impressive figure (additionally I had searched for heat of hydrolysis of calcium oxide and found a literature paper on different types of concrete with neat Portland Cement having +100°C having the highest heat of hydrolysis of the listed components).

Apologies if I made you feel defensive, I was honestly just curious.


No, the 600°c was related to a decomposition reaction involving calcium oxide*, the Fahrenheit was the typo, the 600° was intentional but incorrect.

So Wikipedia does not count as a reference?
Quote:

A demonstration of slaking of quicklime as a strongly exothermic reaction. Drops of water are added to pieces of quicklime. After a while, a pronounced exothermic reaction occurs ('slaking of lime'). The temperature can reach up to some 300 °С. -Wikipedia


Here is another one:
http://www.maria-online.com/health/article.php?lg=en&q=C...

*
Quote:

Calcium oxide, chemical compound, CaO, a colorless, cubic crystalline or white amorphous substance. It is also called lime, quicklime, or caustic lime, but commercial lime often contains impurities, e.g., silica, iron, alumina, and magnesia. It is prepared by heating calcium carbonate (e.g., limestone) in a special lime kiln to about 500°C to 600°C, decomposing it into the oxide and carbon dioxide.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/science-and-technology/chemistr...


Like I said, this was all based on a reaction preformed in high school, so I apologize if my memory is not at its best.

I don't understand how I was "talking in circles" everything has been consistent aside from the single numerical error.

PhenethylamineMachine - 26-4-2018 at 06:37

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
Quote: Originally posted by PhenethylamineMachine  

The person I was debating explained the situation as follows: there were wall carvings found deep in a temple, they were found in places where light would not have been available, even if using mirrors reflecting the sun. It was also argued that there was no evidence that fire was used such as residue on the walls or proper ventilation.
...
this goes along with what I was saying before, we do not know how many ancients made discoveries in chemistry and decided to keep them secret.

Any way, its a very long shot, but I still see "egyptian phosphorus lamps" as being a viable opti



I prefer simpler arguments;
. AFAIK pyramids were for a single burial ceremony then sealed, so only short-term lighting was required
. If a body can get from outside to inside then a relay of mirrors will work
. Much of the work would have been done during construction - in daylight


I was assuming that the chemistry would be the focus, not the premise behind the hypothetical...

Any way:
Quote:

. AFAIK pyramids were for a single burial ceremony then sealed, so only short-term lighting was required


Not all large temples were pyramids, and regardless if the temples were being sealed the artists would still need light to place detailed carvings on the wall.
Quote:

. If a body can get from outside to inside then a relay of mirrors will work


Light always travels in straight lines, and positioning mirrors along the various curves and turns of the corridors and passage ways going thousands of feet down into the pyramids would have been easier said than done, plus the mirrors would have had to have been moved in accordance with the movement of the sun.

Honestly though, for the purpose of the conversation it is completely besides the point, the premise was no fire or mirrors reflecting sun, how could they have done it?
Quote:

. Much of the work would have been done during construction - in daylight


Have you ever seen someone go into a pyramid? Its dark, they need flashlights. The art was added after the temples were completed, so logically the artists would have had this same issue.

so it doesn't matter if the Sun is outside, when you are surrounded by stone on all sides for thousands of feet light is not going to be able to reach you. Immagine being in a concrete building without Windows.