Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Please explain these numbers: AP Manual

Please explain these numbers: AP Manual

Aristocles - 25-11-2007 at 10:21

I copied/pasted this from a brief article I downloaded on AP. I just am not seeing where he's getting his numbers... I mean I grasp simple equations like M=VD, etc. and I looked up the density/specific gravity for 30% H2O2 (1.19) as well as its Molar Mass (34.0147 g mol-3) but his numbers and/or formulas confuse me.

Any help you could give in explaining, I would be very grateful. I'm sure it's simple for you guys. It's from: "An AP Beginner’s Manual", by Arthis. (A .pdf file I downloaded via a collection of such files) I know it not difficult to make but I am more interested in understanding his numbers and formulas. I will be obliged.

"To get the proportions in your mix, you need to make a few calculations.
Densities:
d(H2O2)=d1:

Acetone: d2 = 789.9 kg.m-3

You need one mole of acetone for every mole of hydrogen peroxide. With 30% H2O2, a volume V, you have:

(V*d1*30%)/M(H2O2) moles of H2O2

M(H2O2)=2*16+2=34 g

So n=V*9.794 moles

Number of acetone moles in 1 dm3 (1 L): n=d2/M(acetone)=13.6

Volume of acetone needed: (V*9.794)/13.6=0.72 V

For a volume V of 30% H2O2, you have:

(V*d1*30%)/M(H2O2) moles of H2O2

Thus you should get:

[(V*d1*30%)/M(H2O2)]/3 of moles of acetone peroxide.

M*n=m

M(TCAP)=M(C9H18O6)=9*12+18+16*6=222g

In closing…=(V*d1*30%)/(3*M(H2O2))*0.222=0.724*V of TCAP

All calculations made in liters and kg."

woelen - 25-11-2007 at 12:14

The single chapter of my "Beginners manual for AP" reads as follows:

Quote:

Don't make AP, unless you want to loose your fingers, hands or more.

You see? Simple and easy to understand! No difficult math needed, even the most basic chemist can understand this

BromicAcid - 25-11-2007 at 12:27

I saw AP and immediately thought 'Advanced Placement' as in the tests given to those who are trying to pass out of basic chemistry. So I dutifully read through the question before realizing that you were talking about Acetone Peroxide

Labeling your subject more succinctly with out the use of acronyms may help to avoid that sort of mix up in the future.

Since you are curious about the trimer (I am assuming) TCAP or TATP are more specific though not official. More often than not discussion of acetone peroxide is not a suitable topic for this forum since it falls under practical applications most of the time. However by specifically addressing the calculations I think you are in the clear on this one.

[Edited on 11/25/2007 by BromicAcid]

Aristocles - 25-11-2007 at 12:48

I guess I could have anticipated the replies, let me think: one tells me that the practice of mathematics- or perhaps, more precisely, the practice of trying to understand a fellow bipedal hominid's calculations- can cause the lose of fingers. And another tells me that it appears acceptable for me to pose the interrogatory.

Thanks guys

BromicAcid - 25-11-2007 at 12:58

Problem is I honestly don't know what you're doing or attempting to do with your equations. I can't tell if you gave me too much information or not enough.

Aristocles - 25-11-2007 at 13:14

Hmm, the only thing I can see that is somewhat misquoted is the next to last line, it should read: "You should get m=(V*d1*30%)/(3*M(H2O2))*0.222=0.724*V of TCAP"

He is demonstrating how to get the proportions in the mix, correct. I guess. It is what he has as his stated goal. Sorry, but I do not understand what exactly he's doing so I can't be of more help.

MagicJigPipe - 25-11-2007 at 15:09

I found tricycloacetone peroxide to be way more stable than everyone makes it out to be. It's all but inert when wet (from personal experience) and as long as you use proper cooling the main product appears to be the trimer. Keeping the crystals small and scooping/handeling very small amounts at a time should keep one from loosing limbs. Oh yeah, and avoid messing with it in the winter time because of static electricity.

Aristocles - 25-11-2007 at 17:33

Delete this if you like... a friend over at RogueScience has explained it to me.

Sauron - 25-11-2007 at 23:19

Sounds like you are well on the way to"deleting" yourself. Acetone peroxide is for idiot kewls and jihadis.

kmno4 - 26-11-2007 at 01:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
Sounds like you are well on the way to"deleting" yourself. Acetone peroxide is for idiot kewls and jihadis.

Zinc - 26-11-2007 at 02:20

I don't understand why everyone here hates AP. Everybody says it is for kewls an that stuff. I don't think it is so. Yes AP is simple to make and very dangerous. So a lot of people injured themselves with it (mostly kids). And most kewls make AP. BUT that are not reasons that AP is only for kewls, idiots. It is a substance like any other. And if someone wants to make AP that doesn't automatically make him a stupid kewl (many people here think it does

) There is no difference between someone who makes NG, TNT, TNB, EGDN, TNP, ETN or AP.

Sauron - 26-11-2007 at 03:00

With NG and other nitro esters you may be right but with the trinitroaromatics you are dead wrong. The reason why AP is NOT a practical military or engineering explosive is because it is inherently unsafe to make and unsafe to handle. Not just stupid kids but quite a few experienced chemists have been hurt doing just that. Whereas TNT, TNP and TNB are quite tame and well behaved unless and until you stick a cap in them and tell them to detonate. (Well, in case of TNP there are some no-no's.)

So who wants to make AP?

Idiots.

Kewls.

And all they are doing is emulating jihadis.

And all three groups often remove themselves individually or in small teams from the gene pool, a good thing in my book.

Aristocles - 26-11-2007 at 09:49

I deleted my posts.

Suffice it to say, I am not interested in making AP, if I were there are untold numbers of "recipes" that are quite in agreement.

I read through the shorter documents I download. One had a file titled "Peroxides". I read a couple of the documents within the file and came across the one in question. I was dumbfounded by his formula conventions, so I asked.

A kind fellow here helped and a kind fellow at Rogue Science helped. End of story.

I guess I'll just have to live with the fact that someone here thinks I am a "kewl".

[Edited on 26-11-2007 by Aristocles]

Aristocles - 26-11-2007 at 10:11

[Edited on 26-11-2007 by Aristocles]

Zinc - 26-11-2007 at 12:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
With NG and other nitro esters you may be right but with the trinitroaromatics you are dead wrong. The reason why AP is NOT a practical military or engineering explosive is because it is inherently unsafe to make and unsafe to handle.

You didn't understand me.What I wanted to say is that not that all of the explosives have the same characteristics but that there is no difference between someone who makes AP or some of the explosives that i mentioned. Just because someone made AP doesn't make him a kewl. Kewls do make AP but they are not the only one who do.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
Not just stupid kids but quite a few experienced chemists have been hurt doing just that.

Yes experienced chemists have also been hurt by AP. (and this is also evidence that kewls are not the only who make AP) But also many experienced chemists have been hurt by many other things (some even more dangerous than AP).

Aristocles - 26-11-2007 at 12:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Zinc

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
Not just stupid kids but quite a few experienced chemists have been hurt doing just that.

I have a number of peer reviewed journal articles written by chemists, uh sorry, I mean "kewls", concerning AP.

I'm still dumbfounded by the fact that this statement: "I know it's not difficult to make but I am more interested in understanding his numbers and formulas", could be so confusing for him.