Aristocles
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Please explain these numbers: AP Manual
I copied/pasted this from a brief article I downloaded on AP. I just am not seeing where he's getting his numbers... I mean I grasp simple equations
like M=VD, etc. and I looked up the density/specific gravity for 30% H2O2 (1.19) as well as its Molar Mass (34.0147 g mol-3) but his numbers and/or
formulas confuse me.
Any help you could give in explaining, I would be very grateful. I'm sure it's simple for you guys. It's from: "An AP Beginner’s Manual", by Arthis.
(A .pdf file I downloaded via a collection of such files) I know it not difficult to make but I am more interested in understanding his numbers and
formulas. I will be obliged.
"To get the proportions in your mix, you need to make a few calculations.
Densities:
d(H2O2)=d1:
Acetone: d2 = 789.9 kg.m-3
You need one mole of acetone for every mole of hydrogen peroxide. With 30% H2O2, a volume V, you have:
(V*d1*30%)/M(H2O2) moles of H2O2
M(H2O2)=2*16+2=34 g
So n=V*9.794 moles
Number of acetone moles in 1 dm3 (1 L): n=d2/M(acetone)=13.6
Volume of acetone needed: (V*9.794)/13.6=0.72 V
For a volume V of 30% H2O2, you have:
(V*d1*30%)/M(H2O2) moles of H2O2
Thus you should get:
[(V*d1*30%)/M(H2O2)]/3 of moles of acetone peroxide.
M*n=m
M(TCAP)=M(C9H18O6)=9*12+18+16*6=222g
In closing…=(V*d1*30%)/(3*M(H2O2))*0.222=0.724*V of TCAP
All calculations made in liters and kg."
\"This is our purpose: to make as meaningful as possible this life that has been bestowed upon us; to live in such a way that we may be proud of
ourselves; to act in such a way that some part of us lives on.\"
-Spengler
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woelen
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The single chapter of my "Beginners manual for AP" reads as follows:
| Quote: | | Don't make AP, unless you want to loose your fingers, hands or more. |
You see? Simple and easy to understand! No difficult math needed, even the most basic chemist can understand this  .
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BromicAcid
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I saw AP and immediately thought 'Advanced Placement' as in the tests given to those who are trying to pass out of basic chemistry. So I dutifully
read through the question before realizing that you were talking about Acetone Peroxide
Labeling your subject more succinctly with out the use of acronyms may help to avoid that sort of mix up in the future.
Since you are curious about the trimer (I am assuming) TCAP or TATP are more specific though not official. More often than not discussion of acetone
peroxide is not a suitable topic for this forum since it falls under practical applications most of the time. However by specifically addressing the
calculations I think you are in the clear on this one.
[Edited on 11/25/2007 by BromicAcid]
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Aristocles
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I guess I could have anticipated the replies, let me think: one tells me that the practice of mathematics- or perhaps, more precisely, the practice of
trying to understand a fellow bipedal hominid's calculations- can cause the lose of fingers. And another tells me that it appears acceptable for me
to pose the interrogatory.
Thanks guys
\"This is our purpose: to make as meaningful as possible this life that has been bestowed upon us; to live in such a way that we may be proud of
ourselves; to act in such a way that some part of us lives on.\"
-Spengler
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BromicAcid
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Problem is I honestly don't know what you're doing or attempting to do with your equations. I can't tell if you gave me too much information or not
enough.
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Aristocles
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Hmm, the only thing I can see that is somewhat misquoted is the next to last line, it should read: "You should get
m=(V*d1*30%)/(3*M(H2O2))*0.222=0.724*V of TCAP"
He is demonstrating how to get the proportions in the mix, correct. I guess. It is what he has as his stated goal. Sorry, but I do not understand what
exactly he's doing so I can't be of more help.
\"This is our purpose: to make as meaningful as possible this life that has been bestowed upon us; to live in such a way that we may be proud of
ourselves; to act in such a way that some part of us lives on.\"
-Spengler
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MagicJigPipe
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I found tricycloacetone peroxide to be way more stable than everyone makes it out to be. It's all but inert when wet (from personal experience) and
as long as you use proper cooling the main product appears to be the trimer. Keeping the crystals small and scooping/handeling very small amounts at
a time should keep one from loosing limbs. Oh yeah, and avoid messing with it in the winter time because of static electricity.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Aristocles
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Delete this if you like... a friend over at RogueScience has explained it to me.
\"This is our purpose: to make as meaningful as possible this life that has been bestowed upon us; to live in such a way that we may be proud of
ourselves; to act in such a way that some part of us lives on.\"
-Spengler
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Sauron
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Sounds like you are well on the way to"deleting" yourself. Acetone peroxide is for idiot kewls and jihadis.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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kmno4
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
Sounds like you are well on the way to"deleting" yourself. Acetone peroxide is for idiot kewls and jihadis. |
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Zinc
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I don't understand why everyone here hates AP. Everybody says it is for kewls an that stuff. I don't think it is so. Yes AP is simple to make and very
dangerous. So a lot of people injured themselves with it (mostly kids). And most kewls make AP. BUT that are not reasons that AP is only for kewls,
idiots. It is a substance like any other. And if someone wants to make AP that doesn't automatically make him a stupid kewl (many people here think
it does ) There is no difference between someone who makes NG, TNT, TNB, EGDN, TNP,
ETN or AP.
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Sauron
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With NG and other nitro esters you may be right but with the trinitroaromatics you are dead wrong. The reason why AP is NOT a practical military or
engineering explosive is because it is inherently unsafe to make and unsafe to handle. Not just stupid kids but quite a few experienced chemists have
been hurt doing just that. Whereas TNT, TNP and TNB are quite tame and well behaved unless and until you stick a cap in them and tell them to
detonate. (Well, in case of TNP there are some no-no's.)
So who wants to make AP?
Idiots.
Kewls.
And all they are doing is emulating jihadis.
And all three groups often remove themselves individually or in small teams from the gene pool, a good thing in my book.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Aristocles
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I deleted my posts.
Suffice it to say, I am not interested in making AP, if I were there are untold numbers of "recipes" that are quite in agreement.
I read through the shorter documents I download. One had a file titled "Peroxides". I read a couple of the documents within the file and came across
the one in question. I was dumbfounded by his formula conventions, so I asked.
A kind fellow here helped and a kind fellow at Rogue Science helped. End of story.
I guess I'll just have to live with the fact that someone here thinks I am a "kewl".
[Edited on 26-11-2007 by Aristocles]
\"This is our purpose: to make as meaningful as possible this life that has been bestowed upon us; to live in such a way that we may be proud of
ourselves; to act in such a way that some part of us lives on.\"
-Spengler
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Aristocles
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[Edited on 26-11-2007 by Aristocles]
\"This is our purpose: to make as meaningful as possible this life that has been bestowed upon us; to live in such a way that we may be proud of
ourselves; to act in such a way that some part of us lives on.\"
-Spengler
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Zinc
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
With NG and other nitro esters you may be right but with the trinitroaromatics you are dead wrong. The reason why AP is NOT a practical military or
engineering explosive is because it is inherently unsafe to make and unsafe to handle.
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You didn't understand me.What I wanted to say is that not that all of the explosives have the same characteristics but that there is no difference
between someone who makes AP or some of the explosives that i mentioned. Just because someone made AP doesn't make him a kewl. Kewls do make AP but
they are not the only one who do.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
Not just stupid kids but quite a few experienced chemists have been hurt doing just that.
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Yes experienced chemists have also been hurt by AP. (and this is also evidence that kewls are not the only who make AP) But also many experienced
chemists have been hurt by many other things (some even more dangerous than AP).
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Aristocles
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Zinc
| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
With NG and other nitro esters you may be right but with the trinitroaromatics you are dead wrong. The reason why AP is NOT a practical military or
engineering explosive is because it is inherently unsafe to make and unsafe to handle.
|
You didn't understand me.What I wanted to say is that not that all of the explosives have the same characteristics but that there is no difference
between someone who makes AP or some of the explosives that i mentioned. Just because someone made AP doesn't make him a kewl. Kewls do make AP but
they are not the only one who do.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
Not just stupid kids but quite a few experienced chemists have been hurt doing just that.
|
Yes experienced chemists have also been hurt by AP. (and this is also evidence that kewls are not the only who make AP) But also many experienced
chemists have been hurt by many other things (some even more dangerous than AP). |
I have a number of peer reviewed journal articles written by chemists, uh sorry, I mean "kewls", concerning AP.
I'm still dumbfounded by the fact that this statement: "I know it's not difficult to make but I am more interested in understanding his numbers and
formulas", could be so confusing for him.
\"This is our purpose: to make as meaningful as possible this life that has been bestowed upon us; to live in such a way that we may be proud of
ourselves; to act in such a way that some part of us lives on.\"
-Spengler
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