Rich_Insane
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Registered: 24-4-2009
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A Question of Safety?
Hey guys,
I've got a friend of mine who really wants to work with energetic materials. He has little to know chemistry knowledge, so I offered to teach him. But
he wants to try out ETN right off the bat.
Now even I haven't really worked with energetics very much. At most I have worked with a few BP Compositions. I never have the money to get chemicals
for HEs. I guess I know a bit of Chemistry. I have taken AP Chemistry and it is definitely one of my favorite subjects.
So where should I start? How safe is ETN? What should I work with first? I've been wanting to get into this area a while, but I never got a great
opportunity. I had a tiny issue this spring and had my KNO3 taken away as well as my Al powder and sulfur (it wasn't legal, it was a mental health
issue, it's over now). So I am back to square one, and I have this guy who is offering to pay for some of the materials if I teach him, maybe allow
him to assist me in some of my experiments.
I just wanted to get some reliable information, because I know that this community is fairly experienced in the field. What primaries are cheap, but
useful for HEs (and maybe LEs)? I had to decide on HMTD because of its ease of synthesis, but I am very weary of organic peroxides. I was going to
make the HMTD a day before testing the charge. The blasting cap would be kept separate from the charge until the charge is in the proper testing
range. What energetics are the most advisable to start with?
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Hennig Brand
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Registered: 7-6-2009
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Picric Acid is a good place to start, especially if you want the opportunity to learn a lot as well. I find Picric Acid under most circumstances to be
hard to make go off even when you want it to. Picric Acid has been one of my favorite hobby horses. The thing to watch out for with Picric Acid is the
poison hazards. As little as one gram ingested can easily cause severe poisoning in the average adult. During the nitration the poisonous Oxides of
Nitrogen are something to be very wary of as well, poisoning can go unnoticed for a day or two. The explosion hazard is minimal relative to the more
powerful but characteristically more sensitive and unstable Nitric Esters.
For sheer power though it is hard to beat ErTeN or ETN as we often call it. It still requires a primary but a very tiny amount. In small quantities
it is probably the most impressive thing I have played with, though PETN is supposed to be a little better(at least in small quantities).
I hope this helps a little. Mostly just educate yourself well, and no knee jerk reactions. Think first and be deliberate in your action, yet cautious.
I personally found dealing with Picric Acid to be a great way to learn a lot of related things, but some say it is a lot of work and boring.
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Rich_Insane
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Registered: 24-4-2009
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Are the picrate salts just as safe? I hear they are more sensitive. I was thinking about using sodium picrate or potassium picrate as a primary. I
would also make some nitroglycerin, because that requires a simple nitration mix as well (KNO3 and H2SO4 for both picric and nitroglycerin right?). I
have done a fair amount of research, but I have not pursued energetics very much yet. I've got pretty much everything necessary to synthesize stuff in
terms of glassware etc.
Picric acid sounds pretty cool actually. It would be interesting to see the differences between various salts of picric acid. In the case my partner
really wants to do a nitro based secondary, what is the safest and easiest one to make? ETN? EDGN? Nitroglycerin? Is Rooto brand drain cleaner pure
enough for picrates and nitros?
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Hennig Brand
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There is some really good videos on youtube right now on determining acid concentration and purity. "The home scientist" I believe they are called and
the videos are titled "cheap sulfuric acid" or "sulfuric acid on the cheap" I think. There is a part one and two, and it deals with testing comercial
sources of H2SO4.
Listen there is a wealth of information just on this site alone, developing good information searching skills is a very valuable skill in itself. Do
some reading, do some tinkering, you will gradually learn more and more. You need to dig for information on your own. You will find answers to most of
your questions I would imagine just on this site alone.
Be careful and have fun.
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Bismuth
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Nitroglycerin isn't very safe to make; I wouldn't recommend it for a novice. There's been a lot of accidents with it and it doesn't take much to set
it off. Its sensitivity has been exaggerated a lot especially due today's movies, but it is still very sensitive.
I wouldn't be making HMTD. The amount of accidents that have occurred with organic peroxides is frightening. Stay away from them. I personally think
double salts (Ag2C2*AgNO3) are a good choice. Silver really isn't that expensive and in the scheme of things, it wouldn't cost that much since you
wouldn't be using a lot. If you do some searching, you'll find some tests conducted on it in regards to impact, friction and heat. You'll see from
these results alone it is certainly much better than HMTD and others.
Nitrocellulose might be worth exploring. The chemistry is quite interesting and it's relatively safe product and synthesis especially compared to the
scheme of energetic materials. It teaches a lot of principles and the consequences if you have a mishap are minimal. Definitely a good synthesis to
start with. I also vouch Picric Acid to be a fairly good first synthesis. Good luck, be careful and read, read, read!
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quicksilver
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This is a valuable discussion. I am not too sure if classifying materials per se' as "more of less safe" is the most productive means of determining
your goal.
If the agenda is to allow someone to learn about energetic chemistry while minimizing the risk, then all materials are "firearms": they are always
loaded. I think you understand where I am coming from here......if you set aside one item and look to that item as "safe" then actually the safety
procedures in general are often being laid aside. While it's true that picric acid is not as sensitive as most any primary explosive or RDX is much
more predicable that many liquid explosives, the point is that all explosives are capable of devastating mishandling with commensurate results.
Perhaps the best route is to treat all materials as being capable of the same level of maiming & destruction, while teaching those techniques that
can prevent tragedies both during synthesis and after. Acid fumes can kill just as a "close encounter" with a detonation.
Hot acids are a serious concern as is static electricity. Here you have examples of safety issues both during and after your lab that need be
addressed. Teaching proper lab safety to someone who has not worked in that environment has a great many challenges; not the least being once the
person has had a bit of experience and becomes lax due to familiarity. One of the more productive means of remembering the safety issues after a lab
can be the means of testing an energetic material's sensitivity.
HMTD has many demands to be stored or used with a degree of safety; but then again so does black powder. The airborne dust of BP has resulted in a
great many incidents that could have been avoided but so mild was the general outlook toward that material that many people forgot that it has the
potential to do great harm when handled in a casual manner. Lab safety can be taught by understanding the means of exposure to toxicity.
I think you have your work cut out for you. The more you examine the subject, the more you may see that safety does not begin or end and does not
confine itself to the material but is a vast subject that must take into account the lab, the lab experience, the material's' components and the final
product itself. There is a great amount of information to discuss with someone new to this issue.
edit:
Anyone can benefit from exploring this topic. It's actually fairly vast in scope. The more contributions you get here, the more you may see that the
issue can be approached from the moment the guy steps into a lab till the final cleanup of whatever project he's working on; including any handling of
existing energetics.
[Edited on 27-7-2010 by quicksilver]
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Rich_Insane
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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Yea, I've heard about how unstable NG is. I was just wondering which nitrated ester energetic is probably the safest. I wanted to try out PETN at
first, but I don't have the money or the experience to gather the materials.
HMTD was my initial idea for the primary explosive used to set off the charge. Then you guys brought up picric acid, which seems perfectly fine (and
fairly simple) as well. I am more worried about the safety of the explosive. I work with acids/solvents on a weekly/daily basis as an intern, so I've
got a bit of the protocol for handling acids (hot acids as well?).
I more or less want a way to experiment with chemistry during the summer and release some stress before going back to school. The last few months have
been hell.
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Melgar
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ETN is really stable, and erythritol only costs 5-6 dollars a pound. Since the raw materials are readily available, you're not as likely to screw it
up. Plus it doesn't degrade into an unstable compound over time like nitroglycerin does. I would strongly recommend it.
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Engager
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If you are too worried about safety use low power binary explosives, they are almost perfectly safe since you can mix components in place you want
them go bang, insert small electric detonator and explode charge from safe distance. As an example i can call a mixture of fine aluminum with
potassium chlorate - both cheap and readily available, mix them according perfect oxygen balance and initiate by small electric detonator. Be aware
that smaller aluminum causes higher sensitivity.
Experimenting with simple fuel/oxidizer explosives can give you many important skills and knowledge. For example you can see how greatly oxygen
balance influences the power of explosion, and how greatly particle size affects sensitivity. Also you can note that such mixtures only burn or
deflagrate if initiated by fire, while true detonation can occur only then aluminum particles are fine and mixture is initiated by impact, friction or
tiny amount of any primary explosive.
Such experiments doesn't need synthetic skill at all, but can learn you a lot about nature and behavior of energetic materials.
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