einstein(not)
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(1-Hydroxyethylidene)diphosphonic acid
I have 2 gallons of this chemical and would like to hear suggestions for possible uses. Here is some info from the MSDS.
MSDS Number: 1205 Revision: 4
DOT Hazard Classification: Corrosive liquid, acidic, organic, n.o.s. (phosphonic acid), 8, UN3265, PG III
Identity (trade name as used on label): D-98
CAS Number 2809-21-4
Boiling Point: 1000C
Specific Gravity (H2O=1): 1.06-1.10
Vapor Density (Air=1): Not known
Evaporation Rate (Water=1): 1.0
Solubility in Water: Complete
Water Reactive: No
Appearance and Odor: Clear, yellow, non-viscous liquid with bland odor
Incompatibility (materials to avoid): Bare metal surfaces, sulfides, sulfites.
Hazardous Decomposition Products: Oxides of carbon and nitrogen. Highly toxic phosphines may form if water is completely removed.
I believe this was used in boilers for corrosion protection.
I was quite excited as you can imagine when I read "Phosphonic Acid" on the label after a quick google search showed it to be another name for
phosphorus acid.
It was only after contacting the manufacturer that I found out differently. Still it seems to me that this may be a source of some form of
phosphorus. At least that is my hope.
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einstein(not)
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Guess I'll flush it.
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not_important
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Did you look at the formula and structure?
http://www.jsjhhg.com/p1.htm
It should work for making phosphorus via the standard reduction by carbon at high temperatures route.
It also could be fun to play with making complexes of various metals. It obviously does so for calcium and magnesium, but there others it should
complex with as well.
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einstein(not)
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Wish I could get rid of those hydroxy's
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not_important
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| Quote: | Originally posted by einstein(not)
Wish I could get rid of those hydroxy's |
Just heat it to a few hundred centigrade. The hrdroxys will go to water and -P-O-P- links. The central organic hydroxy will likely dehydrate too,
possibly to give a C=C double bond, which could further react.
Or heat with carbon. You could even add sugar, bought in bulk, to the acid heated in a waterbath, forming a syrup with enough carbon content for full
reduction. Then heat the syrup in an open pan to first drive off water, then char the sugar to carbon and condense the acid to poly form - both of
which release more water. Cool, crush or grind, then into the pipe-retort for the formation of phosphorus.
What you've got is something that should work in place of phosphoric acid for most phosphorus making methods, provided the carbon-per-phosphorous
isn't a problem.
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chemoleo
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| Quote: | | Boiling Point: 1000C |
Somehow I find this hard to believe!
This would be on a par with a lot of metals, and would make beautiful thermometer material.
Also I seem to remember that the highest decomposition points of any organic compounds is around 500 deg C, including Teflon etc.
Here, a free carbon-linked hydroxyl is stable up to that temp???
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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einstein(not)
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chemoleo
| Quote: | | Boiling Point: 1000C |
Somehow I find this hard to believe!
This would be on a par with a lot of metals, and would make beautiful thermometer material.
Also I seem to remember that the highest decomposition points of any organic compounds is around 500 deg C, including Teflon etc.
Here, a free carbon-linked hydroxyl is stable up to that temp??? |
That's a typo. Should read 100C.
I did evaporate some down which became syrupy while hot which on cooling to room temp. polymerized to a clear flexible plastic like consistancy.
[Edited on 27-3-2007 by einstein(not)]
[Edited on 27-3-2007 by einstein(not)]
Attachment: D-98 rev 1 msds.doc (56kB)
This file has been downloaded 532 times
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einstein(not)
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Heated some in a beaker today with some lead and it became black, rubbery and waxy. A strong acid smell felled the air in the room I evaporated it
down in. The rising vapors from the beaker were slightly flamable when ignited with a lighter but unable to sustain themselves. A small amount of
the waxy substance place in the flame of a map gas torch charred but wasn't completely consumed. With the lights off no glowing was perceptable.
After cooling I found the lead had melted forming little balls so I know the temp was at least the melting point of lead. I am considering attemping
aluminum reduction in a steel retort on a bed of charcoal. I am wondering whether silca gel, which I have, will work in the reduction though.
Just noticed that the msds staes that phosphines may produced if all water is removed. Thats not typical of phosphoric acid is? Am I mistaken or
isn't it only phosphorus and hypophoshorus acid that release phosphine on dehydration? I'm starting wonder if that acid smell may have been
something else.
[Edited on 2-4-2007 by einstein(not)]
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conducter
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phosphonic acid is another way of saying Phosphorous acid (h3po3) which has some uses in reducing hydroxyl groups when mixed with iodine and water.
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einstein(not)
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| Quote: | Originally posted by conducter
phosphonic acid is another way of saying Phosphorous acid (h3po3) which has some uses in reducing hydroxyl groups when mixed with iodine and water.
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That's true but it is also used as a common name for many acidic phosphorus containing compounds. That's why, as I stated in my original post, I
was intially so excited. Phosphorus Acid can be used in place of phosphorus in many reactions, unlike phosphoric acid. It is also much easier to
extract phosphorus from it than phosphoric. The main problem I'm having in understanding what I have is the 1-hydroxyehtylidene suffix. It is a
lack of knowledge on my part that prevents me from chosing a logical route of experimentation. I'm not even sure this topic belongs in the section
of the forum. Hydroxyehtylidene sounded organic to me but it might simply be a statement of structure. Like I said "It's a lack of knowledge".
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einstein(not)
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Well I evaporated it down to a waxy consistancy of approx. 50 grams and added 50 grams of iodine (moist) and 100ml of methanol. Refluxed in a 500ml
flask with a short air cooled condenser which led into a long water cooled condenser angled downward to a receiving flask for 6 hours keeping the temp
of the vapor at the top of the first condenser between 45 and 60C.
Approx. 5ml of methyl iodide along with 20ml of methanol came over. I then added approx. 2 grams of red phosphorous (match books) and refluxed
another 4 hours at 45 to 60C.
Approx. 10ml of methyl iodide and 25ml of methanol came over. I then replaced the receiving flask and turned up the heat. Another approx. 25ml of
methanol then approx. 5ml of very dark brown oil.
What was left in the flask at this point was still very liquid not waxy at all so I turned the temp all the way up and watched. The vapor that came
over would not condense even though I had ice water running thru the condenser and had a smell similar to MAP gas used in torches. The vapor which
looked almost like smoke was white entering the condenser and clear leaving it. The residue in the flask thicken, foamed and then charred clogging
the first condenser and ending the experiment. It must have gotten pretty hot because upon cooling I found the the flask had deformed due to the
fact the mantle had insulation missing at the bottom exposing the element.
Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?
Why was yeild so low?
What was the vapor?
I still have about 1lb. of this waxy stuff to play with
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