unome
Hazard to Others
Posts: 134
Registered: 17-10-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
What sort of shock/entropic change would set of Acetone peroxide?
Just wondering, 'if' the researcher's who studied the topic (from Israel, they have vast experience with the stuff), have determined that contrary to
intuitive thought, acetone peroxide is not a burn-type explosion, but an entropic one (ozone and other gases), what, exactly, could be used to cause it to detonate spontaneously?
Idea being of course, that this is the same material used by suicide bombers elsewhere - so we could set up a win-win situation, they get to commit
suicide by blowing up, and everyone gets to stay alive
I know, it sounds farfetched, but what about a blast-proof enclosure with high levels of low-amp electricity/static electricity... What about ozone
itself (it is a chain reaction type explosion giving off ozone due to the degradation of the isopropylidene scaffold holding the peroxide(s) - would
ozone affect that?)...
Some ideas would be nice...
(I also attached the paper, just in case the link dies).
Attachment: Dubnikova.etal.Decomposition.Triacetone.Triperoxide.pdf (763kB)
This file has been downloaded 1002 times
|
|
|
The_Davster
A pnictogen
Posts: 2861
Registered: 18-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: .
|
|
VERY nifty paper, I had not seen it prior to your post. Thank you.
Also: "This procedure was scaled up to produce 1-3 kg of 1" 1 Being TATP  (I
wonder if the authors have a hard time walking with that big dangling brass pair   )
Onto your question, I do not think the fact that the explosion is driven by entropic reasons, rather than oxidation of the C&H matters here. What
matters is the mechanism of decomposition. Here it is radical, meaning anything that can initiate the radical reaction can trigger decomposition and
explosion. Even light can do this, like it can to many explosives. I do not have the value handy for the energy of light necessary to initiate AP,
but it may exist in the lit(like it does for many primaries). Of course static electricity could also do here. (Tesla coils near potential target
zones? )
|
|
|
-=HeX=-
Hazard to Others
Posts: 109
Registered: 18-4-2008
Location: Ireland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Precipitating
|
|
That paper is a good one, IIRC I stuck it into my .pdf file.
Those guys REALLY musta had to carry their balls in wheelbarrows! I recall doing some EOD work on 2kg AP mixed with PIB to make a 'plastique'. A Kewl
made the charge and tried to light it with a fuse, and as he lives nearby and knows about my hobbies he phoned me for help. I made the hapless twit
stick the blasting cap to the charge while I took cover and he did all the work of trailing out wires, hooking up the cap, and once he was in cover I
fired the charge. I provided the cap, wires and firing set. I was far too nervous - having previously had a severe finger injury due to AP - to
approach the charge, or even go within 100m!
Hmmm perhaps we can use giant Van De Graff generators to self destruct terrorists!
If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
What may be used alternatively to the Van De Graff and would probably give surer results is a neutron bomb. On a more individual level, a two ounce
load of
of #4 buckshot would provide 41 chances of causing an "entropy change" about
the suspected possessor of the target material.
|
|
|
unome
Hazard to Others
Posts: 134
Registered: 17-10-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I wonder... It is not feasible to put everyone at a "Person Checkpoint", which is where the majority of casualties arise to those manning the
checkpoints, through a strip-search - the only sure way to determine if they are carrying the fucking shit.... How to thin out these pricks, I mean, I
have no issue with them going to sit at the right-hand side of Allah, I just don't want them taking anyone else along with them...
What we do know about this substance is that it is every bit as dangerous as the pricks carrying it, and perhaps even more sensitive (although looking
at what just happened the other day to the Danish cartoonist, I wonder...)...
What about making everyone do a couple of bounces on a trampoline within a blast proof enclosure? Same deal for cars at the "Vehicle Check Points (aka
VCP's)", easy enough to set up, just make them drive through a blast proof enclosure with large potholes/bumps...
PS Rosco, I approve wholeheartedly, but the UN might get perhaps a teensy wheensy bit uptight if everyone in the line were subjected to a charge of
"00 buckshot to the chest to prove their good will to their fellow man (although, there is precedent in the witch trials).
|
|
|
Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Manic Expressive
|
|
Honestly the Van De Graff does not sound like to bad an idea. I can picture a potential wall that people have to pass thru before entering a plane
that would detonate any explosives on there person. A constant feild may not explode all HE but a sharp spiking field should cover most ground.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
|
|
|
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
"Calculations from Keinan, professor of chemistry atHaifa Technion, Israel, predict is that TATP undergoes anentropic explosion, each molecule of TATP
collapsing to produce three molecules of acetone and one of ozone. 'A supersonically propagated entropyburst drives the explosive power of TATP, not
the usual heat generated duringthe decomposition of conventional explosives,' he concluded."
(in actual practice, nearly all of the gas released is oxygen)
"Although TATP doesburn when it is set alight, releasing large volumes of carbon dioxide and water, itappears that very little heat is created when it
explosively decomposes,' said Keinan."
The heat of explosion for another organic peroxide, known as DPPP, is suppossedly only around 200 degC.
[Edited on 17-2-2012 by AndersHoveland]
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
Which attributes to it being a very poor initiating compound comparatively, right? Not as if it lacks other flaws.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  | | Which attributes to it being a very poor initiating compound comparatively, right? Not as if it lacks other flaws. |
I would think that acetone peroxide would be a poor initiator of other main charges since it is mostly an "entropic explosive" (most of the
effective energy released is in the form of resultant gases that take up a larger volume, not heat), especially when making a comparison placing the
primary explosive in direct contact with the secondary to be detonated. For example, the efficiency of mercury fulminate as a primary is increased by
adding a small quantity of potassium chlorate. This does not increase the detonation velocity, but does increase the heat.
5 to 20 per cent of potassium chlorate added to mercury fulminate renders its action as a detonator more efficient
Daniell. Dictionnaire des Matures Explosives (1902), p193
L. Wöhlere states that the addition of chlorate gives a greater total energy but a lower velocity of detonation.
However, if the primary is not directly adjacent to the secondary, or if there is a steel plate separating the two, the heat of explosion should not
matter. The shockwave of acetone peroxide should not be any different from that of TNT once it leaves the explosive.
The temperature of detonation can be suggestive of the efficiency of energy being used to expand gases. However, there are some compounds that are
mostly "entropic explosives". This means that only a small quantity of energy is released during decomposition. Most of the force of such explosions
comes from ambient heat causing the gases from the decomposition to expand. In these types of explosions, heat is actually absorbed as the gas
expands. Molecules packed with nitrogen atoms tend to derive much of their power from this entropic effect, and for this reason many high nitrogen
content compounds with otherwise excellent performance charactaristics are nonetheless not much effective at initiating other compounds to detonate.
Tetrazene, for example, is not an efficient primary, but can act like an efficient secondary (to detonate TNT for example) if first detonated by
another primary. Its detonation velocity is highly variable, from 1500 to over 4000 m/s, depending on how it is initiated.
Copper(I) acetylide is an unusual explosive in that its instant decomposition is self sustained, but does not generate enough heat to vaporize any of
the resultant products, and so there is only traces of gas (from impurities in the compound) to expand besides from the air. It is possible to make
pure Cu2C2 that does not (or only weakly) explodes when initiated under a vacuum.
[Edited on 17-2-2012 by AndersHoveland]
|
|
|
caterpillar
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Acetone triperoxide is a very powerful primer! I used it to initiate R-salt, ammonium salt of stiphnic acid, AN+ ammonium picrate. AN+Al. Even sound,
when 1-2 gr of ATP explodes is very sharp compared with another explosives.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
Ha!, try a real primary and then get back to us caterpillar! All things are relative, and just because you have gotten a less than sensitive secondary
to shoot with TATP (no booster?) doesn't mean it's a good primary, when compared to other common primaries. Not even taking in to consideration its
stupid sensitivity.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Why ap is supposed not to explode on the fuel-oxidizer principle? The ozone(supposedly) reacts with the tree acetone molecules with a delay from the
shockwave? I have a little experience with ap and for me its a myth that anybody would use it as a weapon.
|
|
|
ScienceSquirrel
International Hazard
Posts: 1863
Registered: 18-6-2008
Location: Brittany
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dogs are pets but cats are little furry humans with four feet and self determination! 
|
|
TATP explodes by forming three molecules of acetone and one molecule of ozone very fast. That is the explosive reaction.
The acetone vapour can then catch fire.
Sadly the paper does not inform us what they did with the 1 - 3 kg batches that they made by scaling up
|
|
|
Adas
National Hazard
Posts: 711
Registered: 21-9-2011
Location: Slovakia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sensitive to shock and friction
|
|
The ozone MUST further react, it exists maybe few nanoseconds. But it is hard to get and determine the final detonation products, because the
detonation shatters everything.
[Edited on 17-2-2012 by Adas]
Rest In Pieces!
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Without the ozone reacting(with no delay), there wont be 5300m/s I think. And why ap is supposedly worse the hmtd? Its got better density.
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
Storage issues worse than even HDMT (sublimation, crystal stress, etc.) plague TATP.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
caterpillar
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Any explosion is an exotermic process. And you folks try to get me believe, that during explosion of TATP bonds C-O are being cut? And ozone is being
produced? How could it be? And I have to repeat: according one russian thick book and my experience: TATP (produced using HCl as catalyst) is not
extremly sensitive. In this book, written by Bagal Lev the only bad thing was told about TATP: it is volatile compaund. If someone is afraid of static
discharges, he may add few percent of graphite.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
|
|
|
Adas
National Hazard
Posts: 711
Registered: 21-9-2011
Location: Slovakia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sensitive to shock and friction
|
|
Quite interesting, catterpillar. For me it also seems strange that ozone is being produced (at such a high temps like 300°C), but I haven't
researched that so I can not say it's fake.
About your Russian book:
I am not very surprised about what they wrote there. I have one old Czechoslovakian book and there is diacetyl peroxide stated as "relatively
unstable", lol. They quite underestimated the sensitivity, I think (look what Wikipedia says about diacetyl peroxide).
Rest In Pieces!
|
|
|
caterpillar
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Unfortunatelly, I currently have no access to that library, where I was able to get aforementiond book. As I know, there is no scanned exemplar in the
Net. It was many years ago, I lived in another city. I remember that TATP must not be produced by means of H2SO4. It works, but an output is something
else than if HCl is used as catalyst (may be, it is the reason why stories about extremal sensitivity of TATP exist? There are some another possible
byproducts, that can occur: for example with groups like C-O-O-H, not only C-O-O-C). About ozone: I do not mean to be rude, but people who wrote
something like it surely must learn chemistry. Ozone producing is very endotermic process. Moreover, to get ozone as output bonds C-O, that are
present in TATP must be cut as well. This process is endotermic too. In that case reaction, that transforms TATP to ozone + acetone would have been no
explosion at all and required additioal energy to go on.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
|
|
|
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The reason acetone peroxide does not undergo combustion during detonation is because the oxygen balance, relative to fuel, is so poor, and the
explosion temperature is relatively low.
The autoignition temperature (in air) for acetone is 465 °C, a value which is probably only a little higher than the explosion temperature for
acetone peroxide. The decomposition products from the entropic detonation would, in any case, rapidly cool as they expanded.
The main decomposition products from TATP are acetone and diatomic oxygen gas (O2), although another investigation suggests the decomposition
product is mostly CO2 rather than O2. Only trace quantities of ozone are formed. Methyl acetate, ethane, and carbon dioxide were also detected in
lesser quantities.
The thermal decomposition, at 151 °C, of each mole of the trimer yields about 2 moles of acetone, when the acetone peroxide was in the gas phase, and
about 2.5-2.6 moles of acetone when the acetone was in the solid form. Under all conditions, the principle decomposition products were acetone and
carbon dioxide. Minor reaction products included ethane, methanol, and 2-butanone, which apparently resulted from reactions of
intermediary methyl radicals. Ethyl acetate and acetic acid also formed.
"Decomposition of a Multi-Peroxidic Compound: Triacetone Triperoxide (TATP)", Jimmie C. Oxley, James L. Smith, Heng Chen; Propellants,
Explosives, Pyrotechnics [Journal], Volume 27, Issue 4, pages 209–216, September 2002
The 2.5 mole yield mentioned in the above source would correspond to about 17 percent of the acetone in the TATP being oxidized in the decomposition.
Unfortunately, I cannot seem to find any additional detailed study on the explosive decomposition products of the acetone peroxide trimer. The actual
reaction does seem to be somewhat more complex, however.
I am not sure how long the ozone sits around after the explosion, because it would be expected to slowly oxidize the acetone (similar to the reaction
involving the oxidation of acetone by halogens, which proceeds through the enol tautomer). The initial oxidation of acetone by ozone would produce
hydroxyacetone. However, one study describes the oxidation of acetone by ozone using manganese oxide as a catalyst.
Some idea of the explosion's reaction products might be gained from the following investigation:
The main decomposition products from triacetone peroxide in toluene solution, heated to 173 °C, were formed in the following yields, relative to the
initial moles of triacetone peroxide:
acetone 85% [eighty-five]
ethyl benzene 7.2% [seven point two]
1,2-diphenylethane 154% [one hundred fifty-four]
methane, benzyl alcohol, benzaldehyde, and benzoic acid were also detected.
"Thermal Decomposition Reaction of Acetone Triperoxide in Toluene Solution", Gladys N. Eyler, Carmen M. Mateo, Elida E. Alvarez, and Adriana I.
Cañizo, (Argentina)
J. Org. Chem., 2000, 65 (8), pp 2319–2321
1,2-diphenylethane is essentially just two toluene molecules bonded together at their methyl groups. The formation of this combined with ethyl benzene
shows that some of the toluene was oxidized by the peroxide groups as they broke apart, and that the resulting toluene radicals were able to
recombine. Although 85% of the resulting acetone did not further react, this quantity would no doubt be less if the decomposition had not been
dissolved in toluene, which was attacked, (obviously then the TATP would be allowed to explode).
[Edited on 18-2-2012 by AndersHoveland]
|
|
|
neptunium
National Hazard
Posts: 987
Registered: 12-12-2011
Location: between Uranium and Plutonium
Member Is Offline
|
|
fascinating stuff...
what about a stunt gun fired at a backpack?
50Kv should be enough to trigger the bad guys HE? without the need for an enormous field from the VdG..
although your lap top and your phone are likeky to be fried..
the bumpy road on a way to the check point is a much better idea! but only for sensitive explosives .wouldnt work with TNT for example.
by the way, sensitivity and stability are 2 different things, its worse mentioning that TATP evaporate pretty quickly (unstable) and can be detonate
easily (sensitive)
|
|
|
caterpillar
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
One of my late relatives offered hi- frequency electromagnetic field to melt pieces of gold, gulped by workers in gold mines. Hi- frequency sound
probably may cause detonation of sensitive explosives, but sound of such intensity must affect on human body too. During explosion occurs many
compaunds, even not very stable. TNT for example, been exploded in confinement, produces HCN too. I mean, that any explosion MUST generate some
energy. It means in our event, that bonds O-O must be broken and new bonds like C-O and O-H must arise. It doesn't mean, of course, which compaunds in
particular will be prodused by explosion of TATP. Small amount of unstable (endotermic) components will be present. it is well-known fact, that diesel
engine generates small amount of NO.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
