JohnBee
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Need help with lab glass setup (many questions)
I'd like to begin by stating that I'm a complete noob when it comes to lab equipment and processes. However, I've been subjected to seeking
alternative health treatments which have in turn, caused me to invest in some basic lab glass/equipment(mainly lab glass) in an effort to improve and
refining my setup.
That said, as a complete noob, I'm constantly finding myself wondering how I'd achieve certain results using lab equipment, and so I was hoping
someone here could help me figure out how I'd best achieve my goals without spending massive amounts of money with trial and error along the way.
The first being, whether or not it is possible to split a given pour path into several condensors for cooling rather than to use one very large
column. ie, it would be far better(and cheaper) if I could cool my solution(from 105c) using several smaller condensers than one large one. However, I
wasn't able to find any way to split initial funnel output into the four condensers.
And so my first question is whether or not something like this exists? ie, do glass manifolds exists? Is there such a thing as a glass splitter that I
could place between the 24/29 connections?
I have many other questions, however, I think I'll limit my initial post to one so as to keep focus on a particular topic.
Thanks in advance for you help with this.
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Texium
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Sounds like you're doing some really complicated stuff there. Are you sure you really need four condensers? That is far from simple,
and most likely overkill. A piece that would do that does exist (I think that Synthware makes stuff like that, not sure if that's where I saw it though) but you probably don't need it. What is it that you are doing, anyway?
Unless you're distilling many liters all at once of something that boils very quickly, a single, efficient condenser should suffice.
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JohnBee
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Quote: Originally posted by zts16  | | Sounds like you're doing some really complicated stuff there. Are you sure you really need four condensers? That is far from simple,
and most likely overkill. A piece that would do that does exist (I think that Synthware makes stuff like that, not sure if that's where I saw it though) but you probably don't need it. What is it that you are doing, anyway?
Unless you're distilling many liters all at once of something that boils very quickly, a single, efficient condenser should suffice.
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Wow thanks for the reply!
Oh I'm sure I'm overcomplicating things. That said,. I'm not actually using the condensers for distillation but cooling. ie, I'm currently using a
500mm Graham condenser with chilled water to rapid cool a solution from 105c to 0c. However, the problem I'm having is that the process is too slow.
And so I'd like to add two or more condensers in parallel to accelerate the process.
However, since I've posted my initial thread, I've come across a three way distillation adapter than "could" potentially be used in tandem to
split/feed several condensers from a single funnel. Which is in this case a 2000ml unit.
Does this sound reasonable, or am I completely off base in my thinking on this one?
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Zephyr
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The condensers will only be effective at cooling any vapors rising from the solution. To quickly cool a solution I recommend immersing the flask in a
saline ice bath. This will be much quicker and reach lower temperatures, as well as being cheaper.
[Edited on 5-28-2015 by Pinkhippo11]
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Texium
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Simplest solution that I can think of if you're not distilling and are only chilling a solution would be to dunk your container in a bucket of very
cold salt water while stirring the contents vigorously to distribute the heat. I suppose it might be faster to use the parallel condensers with cold
salt water in the jackets, but that'll probably set you back another $100-200 depending on where you buy them from, whereas you probably already have
a bucket you could use for a super cool ice bath. What is this solution of yours that you need to chill, anyway?
Edit: Looks like Pinkhippo had the same idea as me and posted just before I did, please excuse the redundancy!
[Edited on 5-28-2015 by zts16]
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JohnBee
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| Quote: Originally posted by Pinkhippo11 | The condensers will only be effective at cooling any vapors rising from the solution. To quickly cool a solution I recommend immersing the flask in a
saline ice bath. This will be much quicker and reach lower temperatures, as well as being cheaper.
[Edited on 5-28-2015 by Pinkhippo11] |
Earlier in the process, I used to pour the solution in borosilicate media bottles and then place them in a sub zero brine bath. However, the cooling
wasn't fast enough, and the time spent transferring the solution was already working against me(time is of the essense). And so I began looking at
ways to rapid cool the solution.
That said, from a volume perspective, the condensers have proven to be far more effective at cooling the solution than with the media and bath method
I was using. However, based on my calculations, it looks like I'd need a min. of four 400ml condensers OR two 600mm to achieve the cooling using this
particular method. Which isn't an issue per say in terms of cost, though I'm really not sure how feasible this is to setup.
Beyond this, I was also wondering if there was a place that sold very large condensers like those ones used in high flow distillation devices. Which
would likely make quick work of the results I'm after in this particular case. Rapid cooling 3000ml of solution @ 105c to 0c as quickly as physically
possible.
PS. since I'm using Graham condensers, the hot solution runs through the inner coil, while the surrounding jacket circulates the sub zero brine. This
results in a very effective cooling apparatus, though the flow remains a limitation in this case.
[Edited on 28-5-2015 by JohnBee]
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Magpie
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Is your problem partly because you can't get the condensate through the Graham coil fast enough?
Consider using a colder fluid, say 50/50 anifreeze/water.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Amos
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You'll probably get more answers if you tell us what you're making.
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JohnBee
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| Quote: | | [quote=406978&tid=62561&author=Magpie]Is your problem partly because you can't get the condensate through the Graham coil fast enough?
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Yes, I need to move the solution through faster and the coils which are of a limited dia. can only allow so much flow.
That said, I do however had a lab pump. And so your suggestion could work if I can lower the circulation(jacket) solution low enough to reach the
desires result. Though I'm thinking I'll need more than ice and water to get the job done as the min. temps seems to be at/or around -4c atm.
[Edited on 28-5-2015 by JohnBee]
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Texium
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Perhaps you'd actually be better off using a small heat exchanger rather than using glass condensers. Hard to say though without knowing what you're
working with.
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Zephyr
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I'm still a little bit unclear on the setup, but if you just need to divert the flows wouldn't a multi-neck flask suffice?
[Edited on 5-28-2015 by Pinkhippo11]
[Edited on 5-28-2015 by Pinkhippo11]
[Edited on 5-28-2015 by Pinkhippo11]
[Edited on 5-28-2015 by Pinkhippo11]
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JohnBee
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| Quote: Originally posted by Pinkhippo11 | | I'm still a little bit unclear on the setup, but if you just need to divert the flows wouldn't a multi-neck flask suffice? |
That's an excellent question actually.
And the answer leads me to another question, that I wanted to ask, and so here we go.
The solution is initially processed on hotplate/stirrer and then poured into a top funnel, into the condenser. TBH. I'd rather forgo the pouring
altogether, though I couldn't come up with a way to draw it out of the boiling flask into the condenser fast enough to preserve it's integrity. The
solution is very unstable at this time, and requires rapid cooling so as to avoid particle growth. However, ideally, I would forgo the pouring
altogether if there was a way to get it to move out of the reaction flask in through the condensers fast enough. - any ideas or thoughts on that?
[Edited on 28-5-2015 by JohnBee]
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Zephyr
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Hmmm. The only thing I can think of at the moment is using a flask with a bottom outlet, although then heating it become and issue. Maybe placing an
immersion heating element in to a flask like this:
Not sure how fast this would empty, but if it were fast enough you could have it leading directly into a long chain of condensers. Allihn condensers
would probably be most effective, with a super cold solution as magpie suggested. If you want to go a little overboard with the cooling you could even
use ethanol and dry ice. These condensers would them lead into a cooled reservoir to further to cooling process.
If the solution just needs to be cooled and is not water sensitive, could you just pour it into a saline ice bath, instead of just emerging the flask
in one? With a large enough saline solution the cooling would be nearly instantaneous.
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Amos
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| Quote: Originally posted by JohnBee |
I'd rather forgo the pouring altogether, though I couldn't come up with a way to draw it out of the boiling flask into the condenser fast enough to
preserve it's integrity. The solution is very unstable at this time, and requires rapid cooling so as to avoid particle growth.
[Edited on 28-5-2015 by JohnBee] |
Why don't particles grow in the solution as you're heating it? Is this reaction or effect dependent on the presence of air, water, etc.? Give us as
many details as you can, as there may be a method that avoids dealing with this issue in the first place.
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JohnBee
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This is what I've come up with. Not very elegant I know, but it just might work.
The advantage is that I could adjust(expand or collapse) the manifold as needed so as to optimize throughput. Not sure if I'd need to do anything with
the condenser outlets, as the solution is headed for filtration afterwards. But in my mind, this might just work if the assembly can hold-up to the
task.
[Edited on 28-5-2015 by JohnBee]
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xfusion44
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What about copper pipe coil in paint bucket with -20C ice/brine solution?
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