| Pages:
1
2 |
Bedlasky
International Hazard
Posts: 1253
Registered: 15-4-2019
Location: Period 5, group 6
Member Is Offline
Mood: Volatile
|
|
Speaking of amateur chemistry in Australia...
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2025/mar/21/emman...
Response from local authorithies is exaggerated. What do they think he would do with this? Nuclear bomb? Nuclear reactor? That's pretty complicated
stuff, not to mention you need far more plutonium to do it (not to mention you need the right isotopes). 10 years for small piece of plutonium (or
rather some plutonium oxide) for collection? That's ridiculous! Murderers and rapers get probation or few years in jail and this totally harmless guy
could get 10 years? Something is seriously wrong with laws (not just in Australia, worldwide).
|
|
|
MrDoctor
Hazard to Others
Posts: 246
Registered: 5-7-2022
Member Is Offline
|
|
We have a tendency to feed people to the machine here. police give out fines and charges haphazardly because "if they are innocent they have nothing
to fear" attitude.
Theres cases of course where people have walked away from 90 year potential sentences too simply because the laws dont reflect current attitude, so on
the other hand, common sense can also prevail, and usually does, but only usually.
My guess is that he went over the limit by using the wrong limits. Law is rather difficult to enterpret. theres two seperate documents that currently
define the law for distilling ethanol, and one pretty much says its ok while the other says its not, the former is worded so ambiguously it sounds as
if a permit, or limitations only apply when making consumable spirits, commercially. The latter is buried deep in a collection of acts and is hard to
find without knowing it by name.
I would bet, based on the events that unfolded that he went by the nuclear material USE limits, which themselves require permits which assume things
like commercial laboratory, licensing, etc, the permit wouldnt be approved otherwise. theres lower absolute possession limits too that assume no
useage, just holding it.
|
|
|
FableP
Harmless
Posts: 16
Registered: 26-7-2023
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The way the system of radiation regulation in Australia works is that if there are radioactive substances on a site, the site requires a registration.
As part of the site registration there is a requirement to have a licensee who is responsible for the radioactive substances. These requirements only
apply if your radioactive substance is in excess of the exemption limits which are quite small. For example most school check sources you can buy are
just below the exemption limit so schools can hold them without having to worry about registration and licensing.
That is all well and good for low activity sources in Australia, but once you try to import an isotope (regardless of activity) the rules change.
There is a permitting system for importation of radioactive goods which is administered by ARPANSA, the Australian Radiation Protection and Nuclear
Safety Agency.
If a radioactive source is transported properly it will be identified as such and picked up at Customs on the way into Australia, if there is no
ARPANSA permit the source will not be released and they will investigate the importer.
If the source hadn't been transported properly (such as sent in the regular mail) there is every probability that no one would have been the wiser. I
saw that happen this week in fact.
In addition to all of this there is the Australian Safeguards and Non-Proliferation Office (ASNO) which will require site registration as well because
the material was categorised as "nuclear material" in addition to also being radioactive.
This is likely the point where things went pear shaped for the lad. No permit, no registrations, suspicious isotopes, knee jerk reaction for facebook
clicks and more Gov funding.
The application of the law in this case was extremely heavy handed and likely carried out by jackasses on a power trip.
I'm licensed, and look after a registration, we bring in plenty of stuff into Australia without question or drama including heavy metal isotopes. I've
got a vial of plutonium nitrate in my store among many weird and wonderful radioactive things, there is so much stuff that my main issue is proper
disposal.
That source was nothing more than a curiosity piece.
|
|
|
MrDoctor
Hazard to Others
Posts: 246
Registered: 5-7-2022
Member Is Offline
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by FableP  | There is a permitting system for importation of radioactive goods which is administered by ARPANSA, the Australian Radiation Protection and Nuclear
Safety Agency.
If a radioactive source is transported properly it will be identified as such and picked up at Customs on the way into Australia, if there is no
ARPANSA permit the source will not be released and they will investigate the importer. |
Yes, that is, perhaps the key thing that occurred there. Otherwise it probably wouldnt have been approved for export. Plus if he had been approved for
a permit the news articles would probably mention that key fact.
So, theres no form of plutonium you reckon that is discretely (but legally) importable? small quantities can be possessed for non-use in a collection
but, the importation of anything like that which is very easy to misuse, requires a permit, full stop?
|
|
|
Precipitates
Hazard to Others
Posts: 185
Registered: 4-12-2023
Location: SE Asia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Acid hungry
|
|
Perhaps uranium ore (pitchblende)? Of course the plutonium concentration is going to be ridiculously low, and maybe the authorities won't like the
import of a uranium mineral either.
Or just go and find some uranium ore. Plenty of uranium mines in Australia. And see if they will arrest you for having a rock 
I would probably show a uranium mineral as a source of plutonium - anything more than that is perhaps asking for trouble without the proper permits.
Schools will use their sources for education, but individual ownership is much harder to justify. Having a plutonium source just because you want it
probably doesn't cut it.
But, if you want to produce your own sample, i.e., DIY plutonium, the following paper details its extraction from ores containing uranium.
Spoiler alert: you're not going to be able to see your sample, but, with the right equipment, you may just be able to detect it.
Attachment: A Study of Naturally Occurring Plutonium.pdf (1.5MB)
This file has been downloaded 181 times
|
|
|
FableP
Harmless
Posts: 16
Registered: 26-7-2023
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
[/rquote]
So, theres no form of plutonium you reckon that is discretely (but legally) importable? small quantities can be possessed for non-use in a collection
but, the importation of anything like that which is very easy to misuse, requires a permit, full stop? [/rquote]
This is correct. We have liquid standards of various isotopes that are classified as "nuclear material", the activities are so low as to be considered
almost not radioactive, micrograms of material that don't even cross into the kBq range and this still needs import permits and ASNO registration
Some of the Pu sources in long term storage, very old and not used.
![IMG20250327112325[1].jpg - 1.7MB](http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=700008&aid=105556)
[Edited on 28-3-2025 by FableP]
|
|
|
MrDoctor
Hazard to Others
Posts: 246
Registered: 5-7-2022
Member Is Offline
|
|
meanwhile my porch is covered in thorium dust as i burn through tig welder electrodes i just buy from bunnings, when i have to do repairs on rusty
contaminated steel.
|
|
|
bariumbromate
Hazard to Others
Posts: 104
Registered: 4-2-2025
Location: australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: nitrating
|
|
it is 98% sulfuric acid almost no yellowing quite pure for the price
|
|
|
bariumbromate
Hazard to Others
Posts: 104
Registered: 4-2-2025
Location: australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: nitrating
|
|
dg just means it is by ground transport only and auspost pays higher insurance.
|
|
|
Precipitates
Hazard to Others
Posts: 185
Registered: 4-12-2023
Location: SE Asia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Acid hungry
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Precipitates |
But, if you want to produce your own sample, i.e., DIY plutonium, the following paper details its extraction from ores containing uranium.
Spoiler alert: you're not going to be able to see your sample, but, with the right equipment, you may just be able to detect it.
|
Just to add to this, trinitite may be a more viable source. This paper from the 1950's discovered a concentration of more than 2 mg/g
in the green and black glass from the explosion:
Attachment: Extraction of plutonium from trinitite.pdf (906kB)
This file has been downloaded 139 times
A billion times more than would occur in uranium ores.
Recent articles have measured the plutonium concentration at less than 1 ppm however:
Attachment: Gamma and Decay Energy Spectroscopy Measurements of Trinitite .pdf (2.1MB)
This file has been downloaded 153 times
It is not suggested that one try to import trinitite (not sure the regulations regarding the import of this substance), or extract any of the
plutonium contained within it.
|
|
|
CuriousOnlooker
Harmless
Posts: 35
Registered: 2-1-2025
Member Is Offline
|
|
For anyone in Melbourne, I got up 5L of 98% H2SO4 for $40.00, pick-up only (Southern suburbs). The only questions were: 1) Had I
used it before?, and, 2) Cash or card?
For 68% HNO3 I had 5L sent from Bosca Chemicals & Cleaning, Qld Bosca . Listed price $97.50, plus DG shipping (No questions).
[Edited on 23-7-2025 by CuriousOnlooker]
Condemnant quo non intellegunt.
Never fire a warning shot. It is a waste of ammunition. ~ Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
MrDoctor
Hazard to Others
Posts: 246
Registered: 5-7-2022
Member Is Offline
|
|
check the law in victoria, they got weird a while ago and "banned" all sorts of chemicals by adding them to the poisons schedule, and i dont think
hobby use is an accepted use for a poisons license. I know calcium is on there, and probably sodium too, but also toluene in some weird way, and
benzene is way up high so i think only labs can have it, period.
today i did see though an online cleaning chem store there was selling 98% sulfuric for a really normal price too, i think its called aurora, the
shop.
As always, things vanish, and others surface. xylene i think is replacing toluene a lot now so its really cheap, i think i can buy 20L from somewhere
nearby for $80, also loads of ester products are popping up too like "dibasic ester" which is dimethyl glutarate and succinate, i think it replaces
some applications of naptha or DCM.
Bosca is a fun place, i once wandered around in their warehouse, there was open containers of nitric acid everywhere, they were decanting the big 200L
barrels into smaller 5/20L bottles, just scattered about on the shop floor and i guess stopped for smoko. everything with that bosca label they
transfer by hand in that unventilated shed.
i think i bought 5kg of oxalic acid from them, they just filled up a bucket for me on the spot, very oldschool, like an old timy candy shop. I need to
go back, one of their cleaners i suspect is like 70% propylene carbonate, and i confirmed, one of the floor cleaners contains ethanolamine, which i
need for an atmospheric carbon-capture project.
[Edited on 23-7-2025 by MrDoctor]
|
|
|
CuriousOnlooker
Harmless
Posts: 35
Registered: 2-1-2025
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by MrDoctor | check the law in victoria, they got weird a while ago and "banned" all sorts of chemicals by adding them to the poisons schedule, and i dont think
hobby use is an accepted use for a poisons license. .......
[Edited on 23-7-2025 by MrDoctor] |
It must feel nice to be able to wander around a place such as Bosca.
Even better if you can score a much needed item, particularly if the price is right.
It's hard to visualize 200L of nitric. Was that their 68%?
The cleaning company is only <30 minutes drive away from where I am, and looks quite established.
They have the blurb on their website that they'll ask for a drivers licence and so on, because of drug manufactures. That may be enough to scare the
'cooks' away. When I rang them first there were no issues, and even less when I went there. It could also be that I don't look like some dodgy
character (I like to think).
I've also had an ABN for a long time which I use if necessary.
Many years ago it was even easier to buy sulphuric, which I used to make chromic acid.
Previously I'd purchased 5L of sulphuric from Bonzer Chemical Supplies , but that entailed freight charges which nearly doubled the cost, as did the nitric from Bosca.
I've used the sulphuric for it's main purposes so my needs aren't as much, although I'm keeping an eye on how much I have left to make sure I can get
more if I start getting too low.
For my last project I needed three reagents so bought them all from separate places.
I've been hunting for some ethylene glycol but can only find Diggers Paint Thinners at $33 for 1L. That may be cheap for such an amount but it's
something like 20x what I want so I'll use an alternative.
Condemnant quo non intellegunt.
Never fire a warning shot. It is a waste of ammunition. ~ Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
MrDoctor
Hazard to Others
Posts: 246
Registered: 5-7-2022
Member Is Offline
|
|
oxalic acid can be hydrogenated/electroreduced to ethylene glycol, if over-reduced as far as it goes. idk if thats helpful for making 20L of the
stuff, but oxalic acid is pretty cheap in bulk.
i have a few bottles of old antifreeze, ethylene glycol, i saved from being thrown out, lately ive noticed it has a fair few uses. i havent looked but
does automotive coolant not contain it anymore?
|
|
|
CuriousOnlooker
Harmless
Posts: 35
Registered: 2-1-2025
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by MrDoctor | oxalic acid can be hydrogenated/electroreduced to ethylene glycol, if over-reduced as far as it goes. idk if thats helpful for making 20L of the
stuff, but oxalic acid is pretty cheap in bulk.
i have a few bottles of old antifreeze, ethylene glycol, i saved from being thrown out, lately ive noticed it has a fair few uses. i havent looked but
does automotive coolant not contain it anymore?
|
Lost in translation -- I meant that 1000 ml of is 20 x more than I was after. It's in that Diggers product, at ~64% from memory. I also haven't found
it anything else. It's also not a priority and there are alternatives
Condemnant quo non intellegunt.
Never fire a warning shot. It is a waste of ammunition. ~ Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
MrDoctor
Hazard to Others
Posts: 246
Registered: 5-7-2022
Member Is Offline
|
|
i just noticed, on auschemsource, it says the site is down for maintenance
"This site is down for scheduled maintainence, please check back on 28/07/2025."
i dont think its comming back up. also dont think it was for maintenance lol.
|
|
|
bariumbromate
Hazard to Others
Posts: 104
Registered: 4-2-2025
Location: australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: nitrating
|
|
i think i accidentally got them closed down..
i made some flash powder with sodium bromate and sulfur from auschem source when it exploded on my hand and i went to hospital, but before i left the
paramedics took a photo of the bag of sulfur with their logo on it 
[Edited on 15-10-2025 by bariumbromate]
|
|
|
MrDoctor
Hazard to Others
Posts: 246
Registered: 5-7-2022
Member Is Offline
|
|
i would moreso think it would be due to them shipping sulfuric acid, ether, hexane and benzene in glass bottles through normal post, ground-post,
through the outback from WA. Ive said this before but, sometimes it doesnt end up being australia post that does the last-mile delivery, not that i
think they know or expect to carry something like sulfuric acid which when crushed could auto-ignite the packaging, or diethyl ether that will fume
out the van if it leaks, and probably cause a fire and explosion with a proper break.
I also am pretty sure they got in trouble already because they used to sell acetic anhydride and 100% acetic acid
|
|
|
bariumbromate
Hazard to Others
Posts: 104
Registered: 4-2-2025
Location: australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: nitrating
|
|
good seller of chems here https://ozcanium.com/collections/all
|
|
|
chempyre235
Hazard to Others
Posts: 201
Registered: 21-10-2024
Location: Between Nb and Tc
Member Is Offline
Mood: Buried in chemistry
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by MrDoctor |
i have a few bottles of old antifreeze, ethylene glycol, i saved from being thrown out, lately ive noticed it has a fair few uses. i havent looked but
does automotive coolant not contain it anymore?
|
I'd think that coolant should still contain ethylene glycol, as there aren't many organic chemicals that have a similar liquid temperature range. At
least in the US, it's either ethylene glycol, or a mix of glycol and methanol, for colder temperatures.
Ethylene glycol has a few decent uses. For one, it can be condensed to form the niche aprotic solvent, dioxane. For another, the glycol can undergo a
pinacol rearrangement to acetaldehyde. Additionally, it can be condensed with urea with zinc (IIRC) to make ethylene carbonate, another solvent, from
which oxalyl chloride can be made.
"However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results." -Winston Churchill
"I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride." -@Madscientist
"...the elements shall melt with fervent heat..." -2 Peter 3:10
|
|
|
currawong
Harmless
Posts: 33
Registered: 9-4-2024
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline
|
|
Coolant definitely still has ethylene glycol in Australia, I purchased 5L of coolant concentrate from Repco that was 1050g/L ethylene glycol for about
$30 a month ago. I can agree with MrDoctor's point about Auschemsource though, I purchased 500ml of 25% ammonia from them that was shipped in a glass
bottle by regular Australia Post, no DG label. Unfortunately they're probably not coming back, but an excellent source in Sydney I have used for
sulfuric acid is Euro Abrasives and Hardware, the acid is clear and as far as I can tell from using it it doesn't have any major contaminants. It's
also MUCH cheaper than the Moflo drain cleaner acid https://sydneyhardware.com.au/products/sulfuric-acid?srsltid...
[Edited on 16-10-2025 by currawong]
|
|
|
MrDoctor
Hazard to Others
Posts: 246
Registered: 5-7-2022
Member Is Offline
|
|
loads of new stores have popped up, many of the ones that stock sulfuric acid and some spicier chems are located in victoria of all places which last
i checked had horribly backwards restrictions on home chemistry, but then again the entire state is a tinderbox, and you could probably rationalize
banning alkali metals purely on the fire hazard just having them in your home presents. i swear they must have laws that really only exist in name
only, like that machete ban, where almost anything other than "i just have it for the lulz" counts as an exemption, because hobbies basically have
equal rights to commercial enterprise now.
sydney solvents doesnt ship it, but they sell 20L units of diethyl ether for $500, id drive down there for that if not for the probability that it
would leak like crazy and intoxicate me from the back seat, because theres no way its not going to leak like a mofo from a plastic bottle, and i dont
have a ute that could make the distance.
Also i just realized now, with ethylene glycol, what i was thinking about wasnt the active component, it was the fact it didnt have bittering agents
mixed into it to dissuade people from drinking it. though propylene glycol formulations do exist. this stuff is undenatured ethylene glycol, minus the
pigment, if denaturing is the correct term here.
|
|
|
currawong
Harmless
Posts: 33
Registered: 9-4-2024
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by bariumbromate | i think i accidentally got them closed down..
i made some flash powder with sodium bromate and sulfur from auschem source when it exploded on my hand and i went to hospital, but before i left the
paramedics took a photo of the bag of sulfur with their logo on it
[Edited on 15-10-2025 by bariumbromate] |
Looks like Auschemsource is back but with a much more limited range than what they used to have.
|
|
|
palico
Hazard to Self
Posts: 70
Registered: 1-10-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Dear InFormation,
welcome to this forum. I have no idea about australian regulations, but in place of you, I would limit my chemistry hobby to harmless test.
In a period where everyone is mad for rare earth, as australian hobby chemist I would equip my garage to make colorimetric or other simple qualitative
test for element in rocks and minerals. That for sure, also for the infinitesimal quantity of materials needed, would not bother any regulation and
any police.
Also being useful for the country and in case becoming rich.
[Edited on 9-1-2026 by palico]
|
|
|
bnull
National Hazard
Posts: 976
Registered: 15-1-2024
Location: East Woods
Member Is Online
Mood: Allergic
|
|
@palico: @InFormation hasn't been here (under that username, that is) since 2012.
@currawong: Talk about limited range--7 items, 3 of them being bottles.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
