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Nitrox2
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Nitrox2
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Mom says no
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2OYHl6_iLs&list=RDMM&am...
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Nitrox2
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Here was my setup I was hoping for.
I've noticed there are a lot of educational videos, in all subjects, in pretty much all areas of the classroom. However, I have noted, that there is
no video showing the usage of a micro short path apparatus (one with a cow) being used to perform a reduced pressure distillation.
It would be educational if someone could make a video on it,
thought that I could be the "first".
         
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Cathoderay
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What did mom say no to?
Maybe there are no videos of that because the equipment is unsuitable.
You have seemed to be reluctant to say what you are trying to do, however it now seems that you are intending to distill essential oils.
I think most times the oils are derived from distilling plant material that is much more bulkier that what would fit in a micro set up.
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bnull
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I think I have an inkling of what you want. My suggestion is, take it easy. Buy the basic stuff (test tubes, beakers, heating mantle, stirrer, clamps,
thermometer etc.) first and then the special items as need arises. There is no such thing as a chemistry dream kit.
Again, do not use AI as source of information.
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j_sum1
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Not that it is clear what you are wanting to do… but it seems that you have not chosen the easiest start point.
Short path and vacuum distillations are advanced variations on a theme. You need to master simple distillation first.
If you are interested in essential oils then you could go for steam distillation. There are starter kits specially designed for that and you can
probably pick something up pretty cheaply.
More that that, no one can really help you until you give specific details on what you aim to do and ask some specific relevant questions. Similarly,
if you are getting parental objections – there is little point reporting that unless you are explicit about what they have objected to. There are
often workarounds, scaled down or safer alternatives, or additional safety measures that folks here can offer. Often with a clear goal, some
patience, good communication and some good guidance, parents can change their mind. After all, they generally want the best for you and would usually
prefer you pursue academic interests than hang out with riff-raff and get involved in destructive or antisocial activities.
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Nitrox2
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I was hoping to distill cinnamaldehyde and eugenol from the essential oil of cinnamon.
They have a small difference in boiling point. Is the Vigreux in the micro short path apparatus long enough to aid in that kind of separation?
Do different substances really boil differently based on their viscosity? I'd imagine that this might plague my setup.
I have a few questions that are hard to answer without experimental data.
I believe that this would be a learning experience, an educational resource, and help to reignite my math interests with implementation of the Clasius
Clapeyron equation to uncover the boiling points of substances at a range of pressures.
Are there any other potential draw back or pitffalls of the proposed system?
Dangerous you mentioned? The only danger that I can think of would be the glassware imploding, but I hear that is rare and I would be wearing
protective coverings.
[Edited on 6-24-25 by Nitrox2]
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Nitrox2
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My Mom is getting sick, point noted about her. I may need to really watch my ass a little more. I'm kind of in dire straits without her. I live away
from town, have no car, no way of making money, no money -- and maybe one friend outside of her. She has started to think that there are bugs / eggs
in the food. I have no support system, and have not been getting paid for the caregiving that I have been doing. If things worsen with her health, I
will be looking at going back to a drug rehab program, for the free sober living housing it offers. (As bad as that can be) as a last resort. I really
am quite screwed if I look at it. Perhaps it's no time to be doing these kinds of things.
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j_sum1
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So, two projects.
1. Extraction from cinnamon. I would be using steam distillation for that.
2. Separation of cinnamaldehyde from eugenol. Aldehydes form an adduct with bisulfite. I would use that as the basis for separation. Lots of videos
on YT cover this process. Other resources available too. Search for aldehyde adduct. Much easier than a fractional distillation. No real special
equipment required.
Sorry to hear about your home circumstances. Hopefully you can navigate your way through this difficult time.
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bnull
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Try Chemistry from the other side: the theory. I'm sure your mother won't object if you buy books in place of chemicals. No smell, no fire, no things
blowing up.
While I was in college, I was lucky enough to find books for donation in the libraries. They used to receive old books from retired professors or from
the family of the deceased ones. After adding the most sought after and the new ones to the inventory, the libraries put the excess copies and the old
books and even some gems (by mistake) on a donation pile. A good part of my physical library came from these piles. Two or three were bought new, and
the rest is second-hand at best. Well preserved but second-hand. My sixty-year-old copy of Kaplan's Advanced Calculus looks like it was printed a week
ago and cost $4.
If she says no to paper books, use e-books. We have lots of them in our Library (too lazy to add link; it is part of my signature anyway).
[Edited on 24-6-2025 by bnull]
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Cathoderay
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Quote: Originally posted by Nitrox2  | My Mom is getting sick, point noted about her. I may need to really watch my ass a little more. I'm kind of in dire straits without her. I live away
from town, have no car, no way of making money, no money -- and maybe one friend outside of her. She has started to think that there are bugs / eggs
in the food. I have no support system, and have not been getting paid for the caregiving that I have been doing. If things worsen with her health, I
will be looking at going back to a drug rehab program, for the free sober living housing it offers. (As bad as that can be) as a last resort. I really
am quite screwed if I look at it. Perhaps it's no time to be doing these kinds of things.
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That does seem to be quite a situation. Besides books there are many chemistry videos you can see for free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmjbCQM-9ZM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt8aYmMQ1KY
I'll have to support the idea that maybe this isn't the best time in your life to do these kinds of chemistry. You need to look to housing and food
first.
Also, if I read your post correctly, you have been in drug rehab. That might be problematic if you want to do chemistry at home.
Sorry to hear your mom is also having problems.
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Nitrox2
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I'm not asking about steam distilling cinnamon essential oil but fractionally distilling at reduced pressure the cinnamaldehyde. Not because I'm after
cinnamaldehyde, to be exact, but because I'm trying to learn the technique and its capabilities.
Here is some boiling point data for the compounds:
Cinnamaldehyde: Approximately 248-253 °C
Eugenol: Approximately 253-254 °C
I've heard "the effectiveness of the separation will depend upon the efficiency of the micro short path apparatus."
I've also heard that "the glass can separate within a degree."
Thanks for the condolences, and pointers everybody.
[Edited on 6-25-25 by Nitrox2]
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j_sum1
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Short path operates on vapour pressure only at temperatures below the boiling point -- usually under vacuum to make it more efficient. To be
effective at a separation you need to have excellent temperature control and excellent pressure control. Read into that, high quality equipment.
Effective separation of close boiling point compounds is achieved through fractional distillation. That is, large surface area, gradual temperature
gradient, and multiple sites for the lower fraction to condense in the column. Efficiency depends on the reflux ratio -- that is, the proportion of
the vapour that is allowed to condense back into the flask compared to the proportion that makes it past the still head and to the condenser. 90%
reflux would be common. For high BP compounds that are so close, you probably want to go even higher or be prepared to redistil.
In any case, a short path is not what you want for this project. Stacked Vigreux columns, a steady heat source and truckloads of patience are what
you need.
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Nitrox2
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NEW TOPIC:
=================================================================
Here is a related, but new topic to the previous, more advanced idea.
Here is a basic setup - minus the darn 6" caliper for measuring diameters of tubing from harbor freight for $2 USD. -- They've been out of stock for
the last 2 weeks or so. Also, there is no hotplate here. Which will be added, hopefully soon. I'm going to use a cheap stainless steel mixing bowl,
to hold sand, which the glass will be cradled in. This is to prevent thermal shock, -- and a bit more.
This setup has some of the basic, but essential stuff.
Looking forward to philosophizing, looking into it -- and seeing, designing, modifying - and coming to conclusions on what I can do, as well as
learning new topics related to the potential useage of the glass. Such as information about sand, why it makes a good heating bath material -- etc.
There are chemistry concepts to learn, even with basic glassware.
I will post some of what I learn with what I have going here.
Suggestions, or potential experiments welcome
-- Something that seems to be calling me right now, is mixing up something with a certain solution density, and then seeing if my solution matches the
-- solution density of the documented solution.
One question I have is the beaker, on the sticker it says it is not microwave safe, --does this mean also that it is not borosilicate glass, or
not meant for heating?
On my applicator bottle to the right, it does not make a tight seal, that large white cone snaps down, I'm not sure if I would store anything that --
comes out of solution
I was able to run some glass straw through where the dropper was on the amber dropper bottle. I inserted the straw into the nipple, and cut around the
straw, the straw slides in. It seems to hold atleast a little pressure / vacuum, likely enough for my potential distillations. Because the glass is
not borosilicate, likely, I will be using a sand bath to heat it, potentially. It is best to use borosilicate glass.
I only was able to get the 2 pack of test tubes I'm not sure if the 2 pack is the same sized test tube as the 4 pack.
My pipettes seem to be a different material than what came in the general hydroponics pH adjustment kit. How can you differentiate between PP and
HDPE/PE?
Lastly, I tried to flame bend my glass straw using an alcohol puddle in the contours of a can upside down, I lit it and twirled the glass. I was
unable to get a bend, this suggests, to me, that it is not flint glass tubing.
Not sure what other questions if there are any, I have at the moment, but this should be enough to get me started with a few more.
[Edited on 6-27-25 by Nitrox2]
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j_sum1
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Add a few jam jars and you will be able to do some simple inorganic chemistry -- precipitation reactions and whatnot.
You won't be able to do density measurements without something accurate to measure volume. And even then it is difficult to get better than 99%
accuracy.
Some pH strips would be a good addition. Also something to filter with -- funnels, filter paper. (Coffee filters at a pinch.)
At this level of investment I would highly recommend downloading the Little Golden Book of Chemistry -- link on our library. It has lots of good
experiment ideas with readily available substances and gives some good guidance on making simple equipment.
Here are some other ideas:
Investigate copper chemistry. Getting some copper sulfate from a garden supplier is a good beginning. Then create a range of copper salts.
You will learn a lot. Look up "copper carnival" on this site. That was a competition we ran a while back. There were (I think) five entries that
contain procedures for a lot of different copper compounds.
Dissect a carbon-zinc battery (D size is best.) There are useful items inside. And processing the paste will get you into manganese
chemistry. Pure MnSO4 is a challenging but reasonable goal.
You will probably want to build up a little catalog of chemicals. Acids in particular. See what is available to you. Many can also be made. Oxalic
acid is a really good one to get. Because oxalates are often insoluble, there exist straightforward ways to use oxalic acid to synthesise other
acids.
Have fun.
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bnull
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| Quote: Originally posted by Nitrox2 | | Lastly, I tried to flame bend my glass straw using an alcohol puddle in the contours of a can upside down, I lit it and twirled the glass. I was
unable to get a bend, this suggests, to me, that it is not flint glass tubing. |
You need a blowtorch for that. Mine uses a syringe needle and some rubber/silicone tubing (the thinner type used in IV drips is perfect). Fit the
needle to one end of the tubing. Make a support to hold the needle so its tip is a little distance away from the upper half of the flame of the
alcohol lamp. You don't want the needle to get too hot because the connector will melt. You now blow some air on the other end of the tubing. It takes
a little practice to keep air flowing from your cheeks to the tubing while breathing normally through your nose. There's a book on glassblowing in our
Library.
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Nitrox2
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Cathoderay
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I will second the suggestion about a book in the library here. Download from this link.
https://library.sciencemadness.org/library/index.html
Look nearly halfway down the list for "The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments" by Robert Brent. Lots of home made items. Somethings you already have
better versions of.
This book was written in 1960 (a more innocent time before terrorism and widespread illegal drug manufacture) and the things available were different.
Less plastic and more glass and metal for example.
Most of the translucent flexible items in you pictures are Low Density PolyEthylene (LDPE).
LDPE is fairly chemical resistant. The white caps on the containers could be made of several possible plastics, so the resistance is unknown. Probably
OK for most aqueous solution but think twice about strong acids. Some chemicals may attack the black rubber on the dropper bottles. Be aware that some
things sold are not good quality and may not seal well.
Here is a link to a video that gets into how useful PET bottles (clear) are for storing chemicals. It pays to be able to ID some plastics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9Snse16qkE
The glass drinking straws may actually be s type of borosilicate glass which has an extra high softening temperature. Even "soft glass" needs to be
heated to at least red hot to be shaped.
Here is a possible source of some useful things like small quantities of chemicals and some lab equipment.
https://www.homesciencetools.com/
This site does stress homeschooling and serious education so some thing are higher priced than elsewhere.
I still think that probably you really are not in a financial state to do somethings because of the cost of suitable equipment, etc.
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Nitrox2
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For my first experiment, (I hope to be running them in quick succession) I'm thinking of making sugar rock candy. I've heard that I want to heat a
sugar solution 2 sugar : 1 water till it all dissolves, filter the mixture into a jar with a string sunken on a paper clip suspended from a pencil.
Wait for evaporation to produce the crystals. I think this is different from making a supersaturated solution at temperature and then cooling it to
make sugar precipitate, but I'm not exactly sure. I think the evaporation will lead to different crystals? Not sure here.
I've really been wondering if my beaker is borosilicate.
It looks very beaker like, unlike a Pyrex measuring cup
It might not say if it is borosilicate.
In the next few weeks, I will be keeping my eyes open for "splash goggles", a hotplate, and potentially 1 other glass item. (What should it be???) In
addition to sand. A 3mL syringe, (for volumetric measurements of liquid. A stainless-steel mixing bowl (flat bottom?) Potentially a larger, maybe
more better sealing applicator bottle set, -- I really don't want to shell out the money for another blowtorch, but I might have to.
I'd like to make a 75-degree bend in the glass straw, wondering if I'd need to make a Kjeldahl bulb in line, to prevent bumping. I notice some of them
have complex inner tubing areas -- that is something I'd not be able to replicate with my level of glassblowing skill.
Also, I'd like to possible stretch the glass straws. They are fairly long, and I am quite happy with them. Wondering how I should utilize the rest of
the glass straws.
Perhaps cutting a bit of tube off and use latex tubing (where can I find it?) to connect it I can make a bend that way, without a torch.
Other than that, the scale didn't come with a calibration weight, perhaps something else will make due? I have yet to look at it further.
Would a graduated cylinder be recommended as my next piece of glassware or what?? I know it's been stated I can use a scale and density to figure out
a volume, but what if I don't know the density of my solution?
[Edited on 6-27-25 by Nitrox2]
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Cathoderay
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That brings back memories.
When I was about 10-12 years old or so I did the growing sugar crystal thing like you describe.
Or at least I tried to, my younger brother kept pulling the string out! I would set it up in a closet and a day later the string was pulled out. When
asked he said, he didn't want the paper clip to rust. ( I guess that gives you some idea of how long I've been doing things like that.) Back in those
days you could buy chemistry sets (Gilbert or Skilcraft) from Sears or "Perfect Science" chemistry items from toy or hobby stores.
If you crystalize something fast the crystals will be small but numerous. Big crystals need to grow slowly.
Seriously you should download that book by Brent. It has answers to many of your questions.
If you have a good local hardware store it may have the latex tubing. I have one near me that sells it by the foot from big reels.
A more chemical resistant flexible tubing is clear plastic "Tygon". It isn't as flexible as latex tubing however. If not at a hardware store, the air
tubing found for aquariums at pet stores may work. Be aware that all flexible tubing can be damaged by some type of chemical or other. Latex tubing
will turn brown and deteriorate with time, a year or two.
By the way, bumping which you seem to be troubled with can be reduced by adding "boiling stones" which can be small pieces of broken glass. The stone
need to be jagged, not smooth. Not heating too rapidly also helps with bumping.
[Edited on 6/27/2025 by Cathoderay]
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Nitrox2
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This is the rest of it that is coming.
Hope everything checks out ok. I'll need some sand, I've heard its best to use a certain type, but don't know what I'll do. Also, I was unable to get
a stainless-steel mixing bowl (for use as a crystallization dish/Containment of heating bath.) I think I will add my sand (golf course) to a cooking
pot.
  
[Edited on 6-30-25 by Nitrox2]
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Nitrox2
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Here is something interesting I was conversing with Gemini about.
I wrote to Gemini
Gemini:
"I've heard -- that sand is better if it has more thermal mass AND (blank?)"
Gemini wrote:
"You're hitting on a key point about sand baths, especially in the context of thermal energy storage or heating:
**Sand is better if it has more thermal mass AND good thermal conductivity (or a system designed to overcome its poor conductivity).
Let's break down why:
Thermal Mass: This refers to a material's ability to absorb, store, and release heat. Sand, being a dense material, can store a significant amount of
thermal energy. The more thermal mass, the longer it can hold heat. This is why "sand batteries" are being explored for large-scale energy storage.
The "AND" - Thermal Conductivity (or how to manage it): This is where sand often falls short compared to liquids like water or oil.
The Challenge: Individual sand grains are poor conductors of heat, and more importantly, the air trapped between the grains acts as an insulator. This
means that while the sand near the heat source might get very hot, it's slow to transfer that heat evenly throughout the entire mass of sand. You end
up with "hot spots" and "cold spots," leading to poor temperature uniformity.
Solutions/Contexts where sand shines despite this:
Very High Temperatures: For applications requiring temperatures above what water or oil can handle safely (e.g., above 300-400°C), sand becomes a
viable option because its thermal stability is very high (it won't break down or catch fire).
Long-Term Heat Retention: If the goal is to store heat for a very long time (hours, days, or even months), the poor conductivity can actually be a
benefit, as it means the heat dissipates very slowly from the core of the sand mass. This is crucial for "sand batteries" where the heat is typically
extracted by circulating air through embedded pipes, rather than relying on direct conduction through the entire mass.
Simple, Low-Precision Heating: For situations where precise temperature control isn't critical, and you just need a generally hot environment (e.g.,
heating a crucible in a simple setup), a sand bath can work.
Systems with Agitation/Convection: In industrial or highly engineered sand-based heating systems, methods like fluidizing the sand (blowing air
through it to make it behave like a liquid) or actively circulating it are used to overcome its poor inherent conductivity and ensure more uniform
heat transfer.
In summary:
You're right that high thermal mass is a benefit for sand as a heating medium because it can store a lot of energy. However, the blank you're looking
for is often related to thermal conductivity and the uniformity of heat distribution. If your application requires very precise and uniform heating,
sand's natural tendency to have hot and cold spots can be a significant drawback unless specific measures are taken to enhance heat transfer
throughout the sand."
----
I had previously thought that sand was superior when it came to precise uniform heating.
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Nitrox2
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Incoming
Going to get back to math soon too
[Edited on 7-6-25 by Nitrox2]
[Edited on 7-6-25 by Nitrox2]
[Edited on 7-6-25 by Nitrox2]
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Nitrox2
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[Edited on 7-6-25 by Nitrox2]
Trying to make copper oxalate--
[Edited on 7-6-25 by Nitrox2]
[Edited on 7-6-25 by Nitrox2]
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bnull
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Filtration won't work unless you let the solution rest for a few days.
Edit: Is that a coffee filter? That won't do. You need something with smaller pores, such as a small cotton ball stuffed into the stem of the funnel
or a piece of cotton fabric (from an old t-shirt, for example).
[Edited on 6-7-2025 by bnull]
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