triggernum5
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Is it possible to clean phosphors from Fl Tube?
Just wondering if anybody had ever experimented with these before.. I realize they're paper thin, and crumble like egg shells, but I'm thinking that
with an outer redundant failsafe like a pvc pipe could make a decent reflux column for tasks that present very little danger, and don't consume
expensive reagents etc.. Basically the goal is to have a "Lookie what I just MacGyvered" reflux column..
I'm not even optimistic, just bored really.. Have others been laughed off the forums before for suggesting this?
(BTW, I realize the phosphors aren't candy..)
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MagicJigPipe
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Does FI(Fl?) tube mean fluorescent tube? I assume it does since you talk about phosphors. I'm not sure but I don't think they are very resistant to
heat fluctuations. I can't see anything I would feel "safe" using them for seeing as how when you toss them in a dumpster they tend to explode and
send shards of glass flying in all directions. It's fun but not in the lab. I realize they wouldn't explode if the pressure(?) was released but...
Just get a real reflux condenser.
It will last forever if you don't break it and you don't have to worry about it breaking from normal use or "reinforcing" it.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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triggernum5
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I totally agree for anything more than refluxing essential plant oils etc.. I'm unsure about their expansion coef. too.. Shards would be irrelevent
since the whole shebang would be inside a pvc pipe.. Worst case scenario would be an aromatic house unless I contained the accident in the pipe
Again, I'm just bored, I'm gonna tinker, fully expecting failure, but if I end up with a workable 48" column suitable for food safe chemicals
(excluding capsaicin ) then I wouldn't argue it..
A true lab reflux column (or several) is definately on my wish list.. I have a wide assortment of copper/SS still heads as I've been a hobby
brewer/distiller for (well I grew up around it).. I just figured somebody must have already tried playing with them, and possibly had insight..
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microcosmicus
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| Quote: |
I'm unsure about their expansion coef. too.
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Light bulbs (fluorescent or incandescent) are made out of
good old soda-lime glass, hence their coefficient of expansion
is the usual 8-9 ppm.
| Quote: |
I can't see anything I would feel "safe" using them for seeing as
how when you toss them in a dumpster they tend to explode and
send shards of glass flying in all directions
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Fiddlesticks. The reason they implode is the same as with CRTs
from televisions --- there is a vacuum inside. They are no more
or less safe than any other piece of glass with a vacuum in it,
say as a flask or condenser during a vacuum distillation. To
salvage the tube in one piece, you need to first release the
pressure. The best way is if you can locate the place where
they sealed off the tube and snap off the nipple to let the air
back in. Failing that (the nipple is hidden under the metal endcaps
which may be hard to remove) you could bore or file a small
hole to let the air in. My favorite method for this is to use a
triangular abrasive file with water to saw through the glass until
a small opening appears through which the air can leak in.
Once the pressure is back up to ambient, you can work it
like any other piece of glass. Cut off the ends, remove the
phosphor, fire polish the ends and have yourself a
length of thin-walled tubing for use as a reflux column
or whatever else. If you're really bored, ambitious, or
both, you could get two burnt out Fl's of different sizes, do
a ring seal and a triple seal to make a Liebig condenser
or indent the glass to make a Vigreux column (a fun
thing to do, heating and poking a glass tube.) 
As for how easy or how hard it is to remove the phosphors, I
don't know because I haven't tried it myself. I suspect
it shouldn't be too hard --- I doubt it's like they crazy glue
them to the glass or something --- but please do tell
how your attempts to remove it fare.
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MagicJigPipe
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Well, they are very thin so I assume they would be less safe than glass that is thicker. They just "feel" flimsy. Some people I remember working
with were afraid to mess with them because they felt so flimsy. Yes, they were pussies, but still. Just remember, if you break off the ends on
accident (or make a chip or crack) you need to heat it and melt it or else it will make a bigger crack or cause it to fail later on. That's one thing
I know about those cRaZy things.
Also, I'm not sure if this is the same thing but I remember a meth head told me once that he used salt water (as in, saturated so that some salt is
left floating around. Or any liquid that doesn't dissolve NaCl) as an abrasive to remove the white coating from the insides of incandescent bulbs
(they use those to smoke it out of apparently).
[Edited on 16-3-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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tumadre
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Just about everything can remove the white coating from the insides of incandescent bulbs
I don't remember if I ever tried to wash out a florescent tube, it should be just as easy.
Try pulling steel/copper wool through with a string.
The glass is 1.5 mm thick or there abouts, I wouldn't build a condenser out of it.
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Mr. Wizard
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I used a dozen of them once to make a solar hot air collector. They are reasonably safe to work with. Just be sure to wear eye protection and
respiratory protection, both against the glass chips and the phosphors. To make the solar collector, I left the aluminum ring on the ends, and just
used a needle nose pliers to remove the external electrode on each end. The glass has a small sealing tube that was broken and this would let in the
air with a rush. Often the phosphors would be cleaned from that end of the tube by the rush of air. After removing glass to open up the end, but
leaving the Al rings to stabilize the ends I would push a wet soapy sponge with a wooden dowel or plastic pipe down the middle into a bucket of soapy
water. A few swipes with a wet sponge and a good rinse and they looked factory clean. Needless to say, treat the water, electrodes, phosphors, glass
chips, mercury mix with care. It can be viewed as a resource for exotic elements or as toxic waste.
I got the idea from a solar energy book which turned up missing after a friend borrowed it 20 years ago, so I can't give any further reference.
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vulture
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The fosfors are harmless, rare earth metal complexes. What you need to look out for is the mercury in the tube.
[Edited on 16-3-2008 by vulture]
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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MagicJigPipe
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Yes, but there is so little mercury in the tube that I really wouldn't worry about it beyond the usual precautions.
A long time ago when I was still in high school I noticed that there was a "mercury warning" on the side of a fluorescent bulb I had so I proceeded to
call the 800 number on the box to see how much mercury was in it in hopes of collecting the mercury. They basically told me that there's so little
that if I collected it all in a vial I would barely be able to see it (if at all).
"They" (not the 800 number people but a book I read. I can't remember it's title, though) also say that even if someone swallowed all of the mercury
from a fever thermometer the effects probably wouldn't be very severe. Sorry, no reference for this but I believe it. I know Hg is toxic but I also
believe there is a lot of hysteria concerning it as well (mostly environmental).
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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triggernum5
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Well today actually got busy, but thanks for the input.. I actually thought the Hg would be fairly inseparable from the phosphors, and just planned
on treating everything as hazardous (thought the phospors were toxic too).. For protection I wear a skidoo helmet with a hose drilled into it and
air-pump outside the window.. Its a rig I made for grinding the mortar out of a garage a few years ago.. (I need mini swimming goggles inside to
keep my eyes from drying out)..
Sounds roughly as hazardous as being merely near a broken tube though if Hg is the only toxin.. I guess I'd be ok with a dampened 3M mask..
Thanks for the edging/cutting tips, dunno if I'd have killed a couple extra tubes or if logic would prevail.. I did successfully de-vacuum one a few
years ago by burning a tiny hole with a butane torch (advertized 1300°C flame tip [but it isn't]).. The sweetest part was the way the glass sloped at the hole.. I'm hoping that with luck/skill that could actually
act as a tubing port..
I'll report back after I play with it unless my hands are too shredded to type..
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not_important
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Current fluorescents have little mercury in them, T12 lamps (4 foot 48 w) may have as much as 15 mg of mercury but not more than 9 mg if they are
labeled as TCLP-compliant. CFLs go as low as 3 mg, as they are smaller than the higher efficiency linear tube types.
Back during the years of the Space Hippies someone in our house snagged a lot of used 4 ft no-phosphor tubes used in some sort of sterilization gear;
low iron glass but not quartz. We wanted to use them to make an algae farm; open the tubes, rinse well with nitric acid, blah blah blah. The cutting
and cleaning went well, but the tubes were prone to break under their own weight when filled with water, you needed a lot of support points to avoid
that.
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microcosmicus
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While it may not do for growing algae, the thin glass from old lamps can
be useful elsewhere. For instance, I made myself a small glass dish
(35mm diameter) from a burnt-out light bulb. Among other uses, it is
good for weighing out small quantities because it only weighs 1.62 g.
One day, when another light bulb burns out I will make a slightly
smaller one and adjust its weight to exactly 1 g for use in weighing.
By the way, for working thin glass like this, I found the good old
alcohol lamp (with blowpipe as needed) useful because it heats
more gently so is not as likely to either crack the glass or turn
it into a puddle. As for your butane torch, maybe it is not getting
enough air --- I have no problem melting nichrome (m.p. 1400C)
and high-carbon steel (similar m.p.) in mine. Speaking of this torch,
my $5 Harbor Freight butane torch is my favorite for working glass.
Not only does it have good control over the amount of gas. but one
can also control the air from a bushy while-burning annealing flame
to a searing pinpoint flame and all degrees in between.
Here is a list of phosphor compositions:
http://www.sylvania.com/BusinessProducts/MaterialsandCompone...
Europium and Yttrium seem to be popular, so maybe if you collect the phopsphors
form lots of burnt out lamps, you could recover some interesting specimens for
your element collection.
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triggernum5
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My torch is hilarious.. Its an "Irodo Micro-Jet", and it actually uses those cheapo transparent lighters as fuel cartridges (cheesy, but
convenient).. It can be adjusted by adjusting the lighter, but when you push the limits it tends to extinguish..
Thanks for that list.. Looks like I'd be dealing Chloro/Fluorapatite, Antimony and Mn.. Wiki mentioned this..
Fluorapatite can also be used as a precursor for the production of phosphorus. The mineral can be reduced by carbon in the presence of quartz,
ultimately generating white phosphorus, P4:
Ca5(PO4)3F + 3SiO2 + 5C → 3CaSiO3 + 5CO + P2
2P2 → P4 after cooling.
Sounds like a job for a tube furnace though..
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MagicJigPipe
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I purchased a simple combonation MAAP/O2 torch for 30 dollars a few years back at Home Depot. It's one of the greatest investments I ever made. Yes,
the O2 cylinders are small and they run out fast but they're great for general stuff. You can adjust the flow of O2 just like an oxy/acetylene.
The advantages are; it's more convenient than acetylene; it's almost as hot; you can not use the oxygen if you want to; and you can use
propane/butane instead of MAAP for a cooler flame.
Also, it comes with different burner attatchments. Great buy IMO if you're not a serious welder.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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microcosmicus
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I have one of those oxy-torches too and I agree that it is definitely
worth it. Among other things, I have used it to fuse alumina
and cut steel. At a sultry 2900C, it can melt, if not vaporize, all
but the most refractory materials. As far as glassblowing, you could
use it to work quartz.
As luck would have it, I encountered an old fluorescent tube in
a trash can today and, inspired by this thread, brought it home
cut it and scraped out the phosphor with a wooden stick (so
as not to scratch the glass up). Even though it turns out that
the phosphor in these lamps does not contain exotic elements,
nevertheless I am putting it in a jar and keeping it because
phosphor is a handy thing to have around for making
screens to detect UV, mixing in with silica for chromatography
plates, etc.
In addition to the phosphor and a 36 mm diameter glass tube
with 0.9 mm walls, I got four Dumet wires out of this salvage
operation. Not bad. In addition to uses mentioned above, such
a tube could work as a coil form or asw a column for a
van de Graaf generator. (Nothing says "mad science" like
sparks flying all over the place.) I'm niot sure what I'll do
with it, for now it will take its place alongside my stock of
glass tubing so I can have it handy when a use for some
shows up.
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bfesser
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Sorry to drag up this old thread only to bring it a little off topic, but i'd rather not start a new thread, and I don't think it'd fit in the short
questions thread.
I got hit in the forehead with a fluorescent tube at work yesterday (forklift accident). I tried my best to wash out my eyes at work (apparently our
eye wash station doesn't work... OSHA will be pleased) and when I got home after finishing my 8 hour shift I took a shower immediately. When the tube
broke, shards of glass and the phosphorescent white powder from inside the tube were everywhere, and I'm fairly certain I inhaled a good deal (seeing
as it hit me in the face), got a little in my eyes, probably some in my mouth, and had it all over the skin on my upper body.
I'm not exactly sure what manufacturer/model tube it was, if that matters, but I can try to find out, if necessary. My questions are these: What's
in the phosphorescent coating (short list, I don't want to hear a long reason for why it's all in there). How hazardous is it overall? Am I in
danger? Should I see a doctor? I know MSDS exaggerate most things, so I'd like to know if anyone here has any insight.
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Nicodem
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I think the most worrying component would be the small amount of mercury present in the fluorescent tubes. The phosphor coating is probably just
something relatively innocuous like zinc oxide, doped with some rare earth metals or some similar stuff (not good if you breath it in the lungs, but
should give no problem upon skin contact - unless allergic reaction...). I would not worry unless you feel like you inhaled or ingested lots of that
powder. If you feel any poisoning symptoms (besides panic) then certainly see a doctor and explain him about the possible mercury poisoning.
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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12AX7
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There used to be concerns of beryllium, especially in fluorescent manufacture, but that type of phosphor may be discontinued for health reasons.
Tim
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not_important
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Beryllium based phosphors haven't be used for decades, for health, efficiency, and light quality reasons.
Acute exposure to metallic mercury does not appear to be a serious problem, else my generation's use of it as a plaything would have made an
impression on the actuary charts by this time,
Ba, Sr, Sb, Mn, rare earth elements, F, Zn, Ge, Mg, Ca, Si, O is the main list in the phosphors, with everything mostly bound up as silicates.
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Panache
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there was a article in a local paper here about how fluro tubes where being used to make pipes to smoke 'ice' (the local term for methamphetamine) in
since our parliament outlawed the sale off borosilicate 'ice' pipes in bong shops.
i imagine this is because the thin glass allows for easy 'blowing' of the glass without the use of O2/gas flames and torches.
i have not seen a followup article relating to the negative health affects of using said glass, funny that.
A general rule
The thinner the glass the better the beaker.
Chinese beakers are thicker than German ones because they are shit at blowing. A thinner beaker will last decades even under constant use whereas a
thicker one will develop cracks within years of normal use. its simply an expansion phenomenon and is undisputed.
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Sedit
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If anyone as a small tabletop tesla coil it will be very very easy to remove the power. just hold it to the terminal and the powder flys off
Another way would be to hook an Obit to on of the ends and have the other terminal on a wand and wave it till the powder falls of then open it
if you dont have access or more importantly experiance in high voltage just open it and blast it with a garden hose it comes off but clumps this way
When opening it pop off the metal sheath from one end and wrap electrical tape around it incase it cracks tomuch the E-tape will provide a stop point
for the crack. A nail file also helps to make a small score mark so if it does break itll stop where you want it to
you will see a little nipple under the metal sheath after you have scored it and taped it just get a pair of neadle nose pliers and snip that off
while turning your face away(just in case)
After its equilized work it as normal as others here in this threed have suggested
Hope this helps
If you leave one end intact these are useful for extracting I2 from povidone iodine
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