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Author: Subject: Home made gas chamber for little children.
TheMrbunGee
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[*] posted on 23-11-2018 at 06:11
Home made gas chamber for little children.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGB425Em_Z4

Aka- last wonder to try at home..

This is stupid. What will happen when kids at home will actually try this, pass out and suffocate? Especially in smaller rooms. The two hosts are tall, CO2 falls down, and concentration lower from the ground gets higher. This huge amount is really dangerous, concentrations at about 5% can make person pass out, fall down, where concentration of CO2 is even higher and at about 10% may cause convulsions, coma and death. Now just wait for the news story. With such large crew - TKOR should have someone, who is thinking about safety.

Am I only one concerned about this?

[Edited on 23-11-2018 by TheMrbunGee]




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Sulaiman
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[*] posted on 23-11-2018 at 10:18


More of a Societal question isn't it ?
Where/when is censorship good/bad ?
It's the grey area in the middle that is used to form a wedge.




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[*] posted on 23-11-2018 at 10:45


Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
More of a Societal question isn't it ?
Where/when is censorship good/bad ?
It's the grey area in the middle that is used to form a wedge.


It's important to note that the term "wedge" is just an analogy, much like "slippery slope".

We all know how physical wedges work, so it sometimes can be a somewhat useful analogy. However, people and society don't respond the ways the physical analogies suggests. People change their minds and their behaviours in often unpredictable ways; there is nothing inevitable about the affects of "social wedges" (or slippery slopes).

-Bobby

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TheMrbunGee
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[*] posted on 23-11-2018 at 14:46


I am having a hard time with your fancy words and metaphors, but don't you think this could end bad?

When you make a bomb - you know it will explode (or may explode) but you don't think it could be dangerous to make a "fun mist" in you room..

In this case I'm really thinking direct danger of experiment and lack of information about the dangers.. I remember my shock, when I found out the gas we breath out may actually be lethal at some point..

[Edited on 23-11-2018 by TheMrbunGee]




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[*] posted on 23-11-2018 at 15:17


I wasn't the only one thinking it was dangerous I saw the thumbnail and thought wow they are filling a house with CO2 what could go wrong. Just need a flame test to see if a flame can be sustained in the house with all the CO2.



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[*] posted on 23-11-2018 at 16:44


I agree there should have been more focus on safety. Principles should have been explained in addition to directions. Directions like leaving an outside door open during the experiment, running household ventilation (prevent buildup in basement), a minimal room size. But at the same time I don't think it was that bad using just ~3L... possibly worse exposure by a dense roadway, or some idiot bringing their charcoal grill indoors (deadly!).

Looks to be around 1.2L of dry ice makes 1m^3 CO2 gas , with expansion ratio of 845.

I've promptly evacuated a class before, in the basement of a physics building, when their liquid nitrogen (oxygen?) alarm went off (they have a ~500L dewar hooked to the basement). Loud alarm in hallway with rotating yellow lights. Told the students to not go back and rescue someone if someone falls... that was my training with enclosed spaces & gas. Multiple examples given in that training where not just 1-2 people die, but their 1-3 would-be rescuers die too. Probably made for an interesting college experience for them ;)

Another fun experience was in my teenage years, skiing. Multiple remote industrial buildings downslope other side of the mountain, which you could see from the highest lift at the crest. The air everywhere turned yellow :o, and everyone had great difficulty breathing. We could breathe the best at the top of the mountain, where it was a lighter yellow. The staff there had no idea what was happening either. There was NOWHERE we could go to escape it, it was everywhere, the entire mountain, with deeper concentrations in different areas. I had difficulty breathing for 1-2 weeks after that (great difficulty the first few days), as did all my friends. Looking back now I expect it was an insane amount of chlorine gas! Hard to comprehend that they could have made so much gas that it filled the valley they were in and, and smothered the adjacent ski resort for hours.

[Edited on 24-11-2018 by andy1988]
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[*] posted on 24-11-2018 at 05:16


Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee  
What will happen when kids at home will actually try this, pass out and suffocate? Especially in smaller rooms.

[Edited on 23-11-2018 by TheMrbunGee]

If you let kids play with dry ice + boiling water...
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[*] posted on 24-11-2018 at 12:03


Sorry about the metaphor, too obscure.

I believe that the 'experiment' was dangerous,
and the hosts were so unprepared it is scary,
but they did mention hypoxia, keeping a door open, and splashing boiling water.
Any reasonable person with (as above) access to dry ice and boiling water and the video itself should make their own choices.

The same members that complain about censorship seem to be overly concerned, relative to other chemistry related videos for example.
I just do not want a censorship tidal wave.

Of those that complained here, how many contacted the publishers to express your concerns ?
Not important ?








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[*] posted on 24-11-2018 at 13:14


CO2 is not merely a simple asphyxiant that kills by hypoxia. It is toxic, even when the oxygen partial pressure is maintained at or above normal levels.
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[*] posted on 24-11-2018 at 13:38


Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
More of a Societal question isn't it ?
Where/when is censorship good/bad ?
It's the grey area in the middle that is used to form a wedge.


Kudos! I can't really think censorship is ever good in long run. Road to Hell and all that




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[*] posted on 26-11-2018 at 08:27


Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
Sorry about the metaphor, too obscure.

I believe that the 'experiment' was dangerous,
and the hosts were so unprepared it is scary,
but they did mention hypoxia, keeping a door open, and splashing boiling water.
Any reasonable person with (as above) access to dry ice and boiling water and the video itself should make their own choices.

The same members that complain about censorship seem to be overly concerned, relative to other chemistry related videos for example.
I just do not want a censorship tidal wave.

Of those that complained here, how many contacted the publishers to express your concerns ?
Not important ?






It is probably good metaphor, English is just not my first language.

I am not talking about censorship tho, quite the opposite. the guy mentions opening door, so idly - I missed it the first time. Id wish the warnings were more clear. I have heard you can get dry ice in supermarket in US. it is fun experiment, but it might be really lethal. and when someone will die - then the censorship wave will come again.

And as David said- it is not like filling room with helium, it is way more dangerous..




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[*] posted on 26-11-2018 at 09:44


Let's consider the weights and volumes in play here. It's impossible to get exact measurements from a video, so there's a lot of guesswork and rounding going on, but bear with me. I also apologize for Imperial units!

It looks like about an 8" pot filled with dry ice to about 3". That makes about 0.09 ft3 of dry ice (assuming a solid cylinder, which it's not, so this is high end).
Density of dry ice is about 100 lb/ft3, so this is 9 lbs of dry ice.
1 lb of dry ice turns into about 8.3 ft3 of gas, so this would create 74.7 ft3 of CO2 (assuming it all instantly vaporized, which it doesn't, so again a high end estimate).
A "standard" small kitchen is 10ft x 10ft, and their ceiling appears to be 8ft. Let's cut that in half to a 4ft height since we're concerned about children, so that's 400 ft3 of volume (assuming the kitchen is a completely enclosed space, which it clearly isn't since it's open to other rooms, making this again a worst-case scenario).
Now let's look at two extremes, since we don't really know the extent and rate of mixing of these gases:
Zero Mixing: Assuming the CO2 completely displaces the air with zero mixing, it would only fill the 10x10 kitchen up to 0.75ft with pure CO2, well below kid level unless they're laying on the floor.
Perfect Mixing: Assuming it mixes perfectly with that 400 ft3 volume. Normal air is 0.04% CO2, which is 0.16 ft3 of gas. Adding that to the 74.7 ft3 of vaporized dry ice, and dividing by the 400 ft3 room volume we arrive at 18.7% carbon dioxide content.
Reality: Somewhere in between these. There will be a concentration gradient, highest at the floor and decreasing with height. It certainly won't be 100% CO2 at the floor, as zero mixing would suggest.


But is this number meaningless? Did I waste my time here? Perhaps! I certainly overestimated the amount of dry ice, and vastly underestimated the room size. You'd also need to consider the amount of time it takes to vaporize that quantity of ice, and the time for onset of symptoms to occur (the concentration wouldn't instantly become lethal as my analysis might suggest, and people wouldn't instantly pass out). Luckily, your body also warns you about CO2 exposure so you'd have some indication that you should leave the area at least. So it's likely the danger is much less severe than it appears from the math.

Is there danger? Certainly. According to this site, 40,000 ppm (or 4%) is "immediately harmful due to oxygen deprivation." It also says that 5,000 ppm (0.5%) is the PEL for daily workplace exposures.
I agree they should point out the dangers of easily-repeatable demonstrations like this more clearly. They should have done the big one outside, at least. But it may not be as bad as it seems.

Finally, do I have a point? Not really. I just think it's fun to do ballpark calculations like these. I guess the takeaway here is that the answer to the question "Is this dangerous?" is a solid "Maybe" :)
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[*] posted on 26-11-2018 at 13:00


Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
Luckily, your body also warns you about CO2 exposure so you'd have some indication that you should leave the area at least. So it's likely the danger is much less severe than it appears from the math.

Yep, I'd even argue that there's barely any danger at all. CO2 lowers the pH of your blood, which makes you feel out of breath. Try breathing in and out with a plastic bag held over your nose and mouth for a minute. Don't worry, even if your body gives you no warning, worst case scenario you'd pass out and start breathing regular air again. Anyway, you can't do this for very long at all before you feel like you need fresh air.

That instinct for feeling like you need fresh air actually goes back to our burrow-dwelling ancestors, and not all animals have it. Some animals sense oxygen rather than CO2. We don't sense oxygen, which is why we can die from hypoxia without even noticing. I'm not sure if any animals exist that have lungs and can sense both O2 and CO2.

Anyway, sensing CO2 is a really important instinct to have if you're living in a burrow, since there are pockets of CO2 underground that can suffocate burrowing animals, among other things. It's not super useful to people these days, and indeed, we'd probably be better off if we could sense low O2 like many other animals. But it does mean that if CO2 levels got too high, our instinct is to run for the exits.




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[*] posted on 26-11-2018 at 13:01


Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
Let's consider the weights and volumes in play here. It's impossible to get exact measurements from a video, so there's a lot of guesswork and rounding going on, but bear with me. I also apologize for Imperial units!

It looks like about an 8" pot filled with dry ice to about 3". That makes about 0.09 ft3 of dry ice (assuming a solid cylinder, which it's not, so this is high end).
Density of dry ice is about 100 lb/ft3, so this is 9 lbs of dry ice.
1 lb of dry ice turns into about 8.3 ft3 of gas, so this would create 74.7 ft3 of CO2 (assuming it all instantly vaporized, which it doesn't, so again a high end estimate).
A "standard" small kitchen is 10ft x 10ft, and their ceiling appears to be 8ft. Let's cut that in half to a 4ft height since we're concerned about children, so that's 400 ft3 of volume (assuming the kitchen is a completely enclosed space, which it clearly isn't since it's open to other rooms, making this again a worst-case scenario).
Now let's look at two extremes, since we don't really know the extent and rate of mixing of these gases:
Zero Mixing: Assuming the CO2 completely displaces the air with zero mixing, it would only fill the 10x10 kitchen up to 0.75ft with pure CO2, well below kid level unless they're laying on the floor.
Perfect Mixing: Assuming it mixes perfectly with that 400 ft3 volume. Normal air is 0.04% CO2, which is 0.16 ft3 of gas. Adding that to the 74.7 ft3 of vaporized dry ice, and dividing by the 400 ft3 room volume we arrive at 18.7% carbon dioxide content.
Reality: Somewhere in between these. There will be a concentration gradient, highest at the floor and decreasing with height. It certainly won't be 100% CO2 at the floor, as zero mixing would suggest.


But is this number meaningless? Did I waste my time here? Perhaps! I certainly overestimated the amount of dry ice, and vastly underestimated the room size. You'd also need to consider the amount of time it takes to vaporize that quantity of ice, and the time for onset of symptoms to occur (the concentration wouldn't instantly become lethal as my analysis might suggest, and people wouldn't instantly pass out). Luckily, your body also warns you about CO2 exposure so you'd have some indication that you should leave the area at least. So it's likely the danger is much less severe than it appears from the math.

Is there danger? Certainly. According to this site, 40,000 ppm (or 4%) is "immediately harmful due to oxygen deprivation." It also says that 5,000 ppm (0.5%) is the PEL for daily workplace exposures.
I agree they should point out the dangers of easily-repeatable demonstrations like this more clearly. They should have done the big one outside, at least. But it may not be as bad as it seems.

Finally, do I have a point? Not really. I just think it's fun to do ballpark calculations like these. I guess the takeaway here is that the answer to the question "Is this dangerous?" is a solid "Maybe" :)



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[*] posted on 26-11-2018 at 13:33


Unlike normal asphyxiants, high CO2 conventrations are incredibly aversive. The kids will complain. That doesn’t make it completely safe, but much moreso than if the gas produced were CF4 or somesuch.



[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
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[*] posted on 27-11-2018 at 04:20


From my personal experience I can testify that:
- People will not worry when their cigarette extinguishes by itself
- People will not worry when their joint extinguishes by itself
- People will not notice their lighter is making a different long flame
- People will get out of the room when the lighter doesnt work at all anymore and even then might not realize what was going on.

Seen at a concert 30m below the earth so I'm a bit skeptical about this sense of danger we're supposed to have...
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[*] posted on 27-11-2018 at 05:55


Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
From my personal experience I can testify that:
- People will not worry when their cigarette extinguishes by itself
- People will not worry when their joint extinguishes by itself
- People will not notice their lighter is making a different long flame
- People will get out of the room when the lighter doesnt work at all anymore and even then might not realize what was going on.

Seen at a concert 30m below the earth so I'm a bit skeptical about this sense of danger we're supposed to have...

Ah, but you see, that's hypoxia. And like I said earlier, we humans cannot sense hypoxia at all, rather, we sense the drop in our blood pH that accompanies high CO2 levels. Absent CO2, we will not experience the sensation that we're suffocating.
People will keel over and die in a pure nitrogen or helium atmosphere without being aware that anything's wrong. It's actually a popular suicide method for that reason.

Trying to suffocate yourself with CO2 rather than nitrogen, would be a lot like trying to drown yourself in yourself in a bathtub when you're fully awake and alert. Your instincts wouldn't allow it.




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[*] posted on 28-11-2018 at 13:56


Actually, I believe the major reported instances of dying from the CO2 occurs when it fills ups holes and such, as apparently cave explorers do die from CO2 exposure being it is a heavy odorless and colorless gas (read this http://nhvss.org.au/wp-content/publications/CO2.htm ).

In a house, don't do the described experiment in a poorly ventilated basement, as that could likely turn into a death trap, especially for small children.:o

[Edited on 28-11-2018 by AJKOER]
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