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kclo4
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Personally I think with len1's talent, making some of the simple molecules or ones that are easy to get would be waist of such talent, and the
pictures wouldn't even be that important, but that is just what I think.. 
No offense, but KNO2, N2H4, and HCl are not really that hard to get or make. Making them in a complicated way isn't to helpful for the board, and
since len1 is asking, I think he wants to be as useful as possible to the board, right?
Just In case you didn't know, Potassium Nitrite can be produced by grinding Potassium Nitrate and Carbon into a very fine powder in 2:1 molecular
ratio and then heat until it ignites. I've done this reaction, and it seemed to work well, and if it needs to be pure, fractional crystallization
probably wouldn't be all that hard at all.
2 KNO3 + C = 2 KNO2 + CO2
Do they make Al powder from molten Al and steam? That sounds very interesting but also kind of improbable... Seems to me that it would simply react
with the Al and make Al2O3 and H2, and wouldn't you want it to be water not steam? I imagine you would inject water into molten Al and the heat would
cause the water to flash boil and blow Al particles everywhere. - have a link about it?
Len1, have you decided on anything or do you still want more suggestions? Perhaps you could, when you get down to the top 10 or so chemicals, make a
poll and have people vote for what ones to make first? - just an idea
I think more members should make illustrated guides, that would be great! especially for the Home Chemistry society
http://www.homechemistry.org/index.php?title=Main_Page
I'll make it a personal goal to make some sort of illustrated guide.. eventually when I get my new sink installed and get the scale, as well as a few
chemicals that are coming. 
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Formatik
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| Quote: | Originally posted by kclo4
Personally I think with len1's talent, making some of the simple molecules or ones that are easy to get would be waist of such talent, and the
pictures wouldn't even be that important, but that is just what I think..
No offense, but KNO2, N2H4, and HCl are not really that hard to get or make. Making them in a complicated way isn't to helpful for the board, and
since len1 is asking, I think he wants to be as useful as possible to the board, right? |
No, they're not hard to get. But availability misses the point and fun of the chemistry. To add to that, availability comes and goes.
| Quote: | Just In case you didn't know, Potassium Nitrite can be produced by grinding Potassium Nitrate and Carbon into a very fine powder in 2:1 molecular
ratio and then heat until it ignites. I've done this reaction, and it seemed to work well, and if it needs to be pure, fractional crystallization
probably wouldn't be all that hard at all.
2 KNO3 + C = 2 KNO2 + CO2 |
How were you able confirm nitrite formation?
| Quote: | | Do they make Al powder from molten Al and steam? That sounds very interesting but also kind of improbable... Seems to me that it would simply react
with the Al and make Al2O3 and H2, and wouldn't you want it to be water not steam? I imagine you would inject water into molten Al and the heat would
cause the water to flash boil and blow Al particles everywhere. - have a link about it? |
Water vapor or air is blown into molten aluminium and aluminium dust forms. The product is usually dark grey and looks almost like zinc dust (Gmelin
Al [A] 165). The original reference is Aluminium Bronze Powder and Aluminium Paint, New York 1927, J.D. Edwards.
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kilowatt
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Why not just melt aluminum and force it through a small orifice to atomize it? It could be atomized and collected under an inert atmosphere. An
electrostatic charge between the collection vessel walls and the orifice could help it atomize.
[Edited on 31-7-2008 by kilowatt]
The mind cannot decide the truth; it can only find the truth.
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len1
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Thanks once again for the very interesting suggestions. I particularly like something that has an industrial chemistry bent to it. Plus with a bit
of uncertainty in the result to make it an adventure. Although sometimes what seems like a tried and tested procedure can turn out to be a fizzer -
Vogels hydrolysis to benzaldehyde to wit.
Of the things I hadnt thought off I liked the idea of hydrogenations and transition metal catalysts - but ill have to figure out what to make with
that.
I also liked LiAlH4, but on checking the local Sigma-Aldrich stockist theyve plenty in stock and I couldnt find anywhere the word restricted. A
concern though is the price $500/500gms for a piddly 95% grade, and it doesnt get cheaper with quantity. I wonder if it that might make it worth
synthesising - even proper labs might have trouble running a research program with that price. What do people think?
I have just stumbled on one that Im even better prepared to synthesise - K, theres none in the country according so Sigma, it has to be brought in
from the States at a cost of $117/50gms for 98%. Theres also this - Castner makes no claim to K for his cell, why? Is that because he didnt see why
anyone would be interested in 1891, or does K dissolve much better than Na in the caustic bath so theres not even the narrow temperature window - I
guess thats the element of adventure.
[Edited on 1-8-2008 by len1]
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497
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Personally I would most like to see 1,2 Butylene Oxide. Another big one is DCM. While you're at it THF would be good
Ferrocene or carboranes would be formidable challenges and very interesting.
Practical fluorine would be a very impressive feat IMO.
Phosphorus would be awesome too. I might give it a try some time soon if circumstances permit.
Butyl Diglyme would be extremely useful for metal refiners.
Affordable Nafion style fluoropolymers would be interesting and very handy for many things electrochemical.
Nitronium tetrafluoroborate would be very nice.
BTW I think what you are doing is really great, keep up the good work!
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Ephoton
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yep im with K nice one. make it real pure please.
e3500 console login: root
bash-2.05#
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not_important
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Len, potassium has been made with a Castner cell, as has NaK alloy. It is more soluble in KOH, less energy efficient and more bothersome because of
that, but likely to be practical on a small scale. The greater reactivity of potassium can be troublesome.
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Klute
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| Quote: | | even proper labs might have trouble running a research program with that price. What do people think? |
Never underestimate how wastefull a research lab can be  Once you see all that
can be thrown away, all the purest/most expensive reagents used while ordinary grade would be more than enough... A friend of mine told me he was
asked to get all the solvents and reagents in max. purity from the most expensive distributors, even though there where not needed, because it would
be descrediting in the experimental otherwise  So the costs where easily
doubled just to say "All solvents used where of purest grade bought from ****", even for column chromatography.......
I'll stop rating there
\"You can battle with a demon, you can embrace a demon; what the hell can you do with a fucking spiritual computer?\"
-Alice Parr
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Ritter
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 497
Ferrocene would be formidable challenges and very interesting.
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Even more interesting would be cobaltocene. It's red & pyrophoric!
I am personally interested in polyphosphoric acid from orthophosphoric acid. I think it can be done with a lot of heat in a heavy-duty metal retort.
Basically you would be cooking it to drive off water.
[Edited on 1-8-2008 by Ritter]
Ritter
=============================
\"The production of too many useful things results in too many useless people.\"
Karl Marx
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len1
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ephoton
yep im with K nice one. make it real pure please. |
Ill do my best. How about kosher? Call it Kosher-K. No seriously while searching their catalogue for pyridine (someone mentioned) I found they
stock it in Kosher grade!??
Not_important, you dont by chance remember where youve seen that? It would be useful.
Klute, and I thought I worked in such a govt physics lab. Its better than your friends story - people dont just buy expensive stuff when cheaper
would do, theybuy it when they dont need it at all. What the hack its taxpayers money. Ah but recently the cows started to come home - having wasted
millions they might not be able to afford wipes any more - I suggested we might even have to bring our own toilet paper ..
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Nicodem
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Currently I have no reagent to propose, at least no inorganic one. As far as organic reagents go, I think an illustrated preparation of some sulfonyl
chloride like TsCl, MsCl, EtSO2Cl, etc. would be great, especially considering how useful these are. Admittedly these reagents, as far as I know, can
also be bought from chemical suppliers without troubles, but I thought they would fit Len's tradition of sulfur and chlorination chemistry. Also, more
or less all the needed literature is already supplied on the forum.
[Edited on 1/8/2008 by Nicodem]
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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The_Davster
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I am not proposing a product, but a methodology.
Start from, dirt, rocks, minerals, plant extracts and other naturally occuring materials and see how many transformations you can do using only
naturally occuring things to end up with something really unexpected given the starting materials!
Start at the real ground floor of chemistry!
I plan to do this sometime, but I need more space first.
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497
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Aww come on! Just plain old potassium???
Really that would be quite interesting. What do you people need it for?
| Quote: |
polyphosphoric acid from orthophosphoric acid |
AFAIK the only way do go is heat the crap out of it in a copper crucible. I suppose it could be dehydrated by something like B2O3, but I don't see the
point in that.
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woelen
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A second thing comes to my mind. It would be nice if acyl chlorides would become available for more persons, but inorganic stuff like thionyl
chloride, sulphuryl chloride and phosphoryl chloride would be very nice as well. In many countries these are VERY hard to obtain and having a method
available for synthesizing such chemicals at home would be great.
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Ritter
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 497
| Quote: |
polyphosphoric acid from orthophosphoric acid |
AFAIK the only way do go is heat the crap out of it in a copper crucible. I suppose it could be dehydrated by something like B2O3, but I don't see the
point in that. |
I want to be able to recycle it rather than disposing of it & buying new PPA. That way sounds expensive & wasteful.
[Edited on 1-8-2008 by Ritter]
Ritter
=============================
\"The production of too many useful things results in too many useless people.\"
Karl Marx
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kclo4
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Schockwave
How were you able confirm nitrite formation?
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I added Conc. Hydrochloric acid to my Potassium nitrite and a large amount of NOx was produced, and that would never happen with Potassium Nitrate. I
don't know how pure my Potassium nitrite is since i have never attempted to figure it out, but it seems to be pretty pure.
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chloric1
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Zirconia
Kirk's work talks how zirconium silicate can be processed with either sodium carbonate or hydroxide to leave free zirconia (aka Zirconium dioxide).
As most pottery sources generally only sell zircopax or zirconium silicate, and lye fusion followed by hydrolysis in water would be quite interesting.
Especially since the hobbyst only needs to perform a chlorate boosted thermite to get zirconium metal to add to his element collection.
Fellow molecular manipulator
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kilowatt
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What about some CVD? Pyrolytic boron nitride, metals and alloys, metal oxides like alumina and zirconia, even pyrolytic graphite. These require
gaseous reagents in the proper ratios at low pressure and moderate to extreme temperatures.
The mind cannot decide the truth; it can only find the truth.
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DJF90
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Here's a proposition:
- Find a good method of making thionyl chloride
- Use the thionyl chloride to make anhydrous AlCl3
- Find a good method of making NaH
- React NaH with Lithium salt => LiH
- Find a way to purify LiH
- Use LiH and AlCl3 to make LiAlH4
- Purify the crude LiAlH4
Also, other interesting thoughs are:
- P2O5 from phosphates/other common phosphorus bearning stuff? And then use to dry reagents/produce SO3/N2O5
- Acetic anhydride via Sulphur chloride (I cant remember which chloride, it's been mentioned on SMDB before though)
- Diborane and it's use as a reducing agent; advantages/disadvantages/limitations
- Phosphorus... Once we have a method of producing the white allotrope, maybe you can extend your studies and find the best method of converting this
into the red kind much nicer stuff to work with
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Klute
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I'm getting fairly intereste din diborane too, but there isn't much to it experimentally speaking, it can be generated from NaBH4 with lots of
reagents: BF3, AlCl3, I2, TFA, H2SO4, etc
I guess Len is looking for a litttle more challenge
\"You can battle with a demon, you can embrace a demon; what the hell can you do with a fucking spiritual computer?\"
-Alice Parr
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DJF90
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P2O5 is definately useful in the lab and fairly hard to get hold of  but getting a decent amount from a viable method other than burning elemental
phosphorus ought to be a decent enough challenge
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Formatik
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by kclo4 I added Conc. Hydrochloric acid to my Potassium nitrite and a large amount of NOx was produced, and that would
never happen with Potassium Nitrate. I don't know how pure my Potassium nitrite is since i have never attempted to figure it out, but it seems to be
pretty pure. |
Great then it's another possible way to get nitrite. But the reaction does not always go as theoreticized, and it's possible to end up with side
products like K2CO3, K2O, etc. I also know too much carbon will get KCN (Polverone has done some experiments with this).
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ScienceSquirrel
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Triethylborane
The fabled green flame, inflames on contact with oxygen and poisoning by trace amounts results in auditory hallucinations.
Only kidding :-D
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kilowatt
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Triethylborane is just made via a grignard reaction, quite interesting though, I'd like to try it someday when I have a suitable setup and the time
and guts to do it. Speaking of borane fuels, I have a complete synthesis for pentaborane that I got from a pdf of some medical journal. It can be
found here on page 15. http://www.idecefyn.com.ar/mmcv08/O1.pdf Oh yes, and Triethylborane is quite innocuous when compared to pentaborane.
[Edited on 2-8-2008 by kilowatt]
The mind cannot decide the truth; it can only find the truth.
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ScienceSquirrel
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I am kidding about triethylborane, I cannot see it as a home chemistry target.
If you want to die in a hurry, try messing about with stibnite, readily available down your local rock shop and you can make all sorts of antimony
compounds from it with ease.
Boiling with zinc powder and hydrochloric acid is particularly recommended.
Acute stibine poisoning is slow, agonisingly painful but inevitably deadly at quite low doses.
[Edited on 3-8-2008 by ScienceSquirrel]
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