Not logged in [Login ]
 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Miscellaneous » drug tests - bleach vs h202? Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues   » Detritus   » Test Forum

Author: Subject: drug tests - bleach vs h202?
RogueRose
International Hazard

Posts: 1352
Registered: 16-6-2014
Member Is Offline

drug tests - bleach vs h202?

I've heard that a lot of people have tried using NaOCl to destroy metabolites in urine. Im guessing it is b/c of the oxidation. I'm wondering if H2O2 (higher concentration) would work similarly?
JJay
International Hazard

Posts: 3321
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline

Mood: resigned

Putting bleach in urine will create hydrazine. That's not something you want to do by accident.

morganbw
National Hazard

Posts: 396
Registered: 23-11-2014
Member Is Online

Mood: No Mood

 Quote: Originally posted by JJay Putting bleach in urine will create hydrazine. That's not something you want to do by accident.

Years ago I mixed urine and bleach, due to my wife putting bleach into the toilet. I set down to do my business and apparently my pee was pretty strong. There was enough off-gas from the toilet bowl for me to know with certainty what was going on.
Vomaturge
Hazard to Others

Posts: 185
Registered: 21-1-2018
Member Is Offline

Mood: thermodynamic

Now, I don't really encourage people falsifying these tests, for a few reasons. Having never done it myself, I don't really know what I'm talking about. My guess is that the tests also check for non drug compounds like urea (which, as jjay implies, is affected by bleach). If they didn't check for these normal compounds, how could they tell it really was pee, and not water with food dye in it. Could be wrong, though. Maybe this method (non urine liquids, denaturing urine with oxidizer) can be successful.

H202 doesn't smell strongly, as bleach does, so it might pass a casual inspection better. It also doesn't effect organic compounds as badly as hypochlorite, on average. But it would really depend on the *specific* metabolite you were seeking to remove.

Potassium permanganate on the other hand...

[Edited on 5-12-2018 by Vomaturge]
unionised
International Hazard

Posts: 4089
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

As has been pointed out, the urea present in urine reacts rapidly with bleach- and that will destroy the bleach; possibly before it has a chance to damage any drug or metabolites.

However, I'd not bet on hydrogen peroxide doing any better.
And, of course, if whoever is analysing the urine notices the presence of unexpected oxidation products (such as Allantoin from uric acid) the producer has some explaining to do.
Sigmatropic
Hazard to Others

Posts: 226
Registered: 29-1-2017
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

 Quote: Originally posted by Vomaturge H202 doesn't smell strongly, as bleach does, so it might pass a casual inspection better. [Edited on 5-12-2018 by Vomaturge]

I sure as hell hope, for the analytical chemist in some analytical laboratory, that the olfactory properties of an acquired urine sample are not tested during 'casual inspection'.

[Edited on 5-12-2018 by Sigmatropic]
Herr Haber
International Hazard

Posts: 615
Registered: 29-1-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

 Quote: Originally posted by JJay Putting bleach in urine will create hydrazine. That's not something you want to do by accident.

Actually I'm pretty sure that's done by accident on a daily basis
Sure, it'll be the hydrate and it'll be dissolved in the toilet bowl but still...
brubei
Hazard to Others

Posts: 115
Registered: 8-3-2015
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

 Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose I've heard that a lot of people have tried using NaOCl to destroy metabolites in urine. Im guessing it is b/c of the oxidation. I'm wondering if H2O2 (higher concentration) would work similarly?
wich drug ?
wich quantity of urine ? bleach ?
wich test ? reactant, spectroscopy or antibody test don't react the same with bleach, O2 etc.

Do not engage your safety and liberty if you have not clear answers to those questions.
 Quote: Originally posted by Vomaturge Potassium permanganate on the other hand...[Edited on 5-12-2018 by Vomaturge]
I eat a lot of beets, problem officer ?

[Edited on 6-12-2018 by brubei]

I'm French so excuse my language
ausnewbie
Harmless

Posts: 10
Registered: 21-5-2018
Member Is Offline

Hey something I can assist with. ( finally a chance to give back to the Board) :-)
Firstly no. it will not work to get you to pass a test. it is ALMOST BIOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to provide a urine sample and pass if you have consumed any of the nominated drugs within the time window.

NOTE: this doesn't include physical attempts ie: false penises and urine substitution, these are caught using other methods.
Sorry - this could be long.

FIRSTLY ME:
Certified drug tester - working in mining industry in Aus.
Unfortunately Seen many $240,000 careers go down in flames by following incorrect information like this. HLTPAT005 - Collect specimens for drugs of abuse testing HLT37215 - Certificate III in Pathology Collection Certificate IV in Pathology Collection Chemically you may be able to disable the test, however you cannot beat the process. :-) All drug tests are screening tests, they test for threshold levels of metabolites AND ADULTERANTS - Particularly oxidizers, (which can possibly I admit mess with the drug metabolites) I use and recommend the sure step system - These are self contained budget testing units approx$9us, however they correlate very well with the GC/MS results we get back.

https://www.safetyquip.com.au/pdAWDTDAW01/drug-test-kit-urin...

it tests for 8 metabolites and 4 adulterants
Amphetamines
Cocaine
Methamphetamines
Marijuana
Morphine
Benzodiazepines
Buprenorphine
+ 4 x Adulterants:
Temperature
pH
Creatinine
Oxidants/ PCC

Each test takes approximately 15 minutes. and they are under observation the WHOLE TIME. The gathering of the sample is done in an sparsely furnished sterile room, all overclothes are removed before entering, the paperworks starts, i have to explain the chain of custody of the sample, have them select their own testing cup from a minumim of 20 possible options in a box. They confirm both the serial number and expiry date on the pouch - which I note and confirm on the testing paperwork. we discuss items that they may have consumed - Advil, paracetamol, prescription meds, ADHD Meds, etc all of which are noted

This takes a few minutes, i usually tell them a few jokes and put them at ease - They complete their paperwork ( which includes signing serialised stickers which have to be placed over the testing cup and countersigned by me in the case of a "Non Neg result ") and provide it to me which i place in a specific folder open on the desk in their view.

I then look them in the eye and give them my good guy speech.

"OK heres where it gets serious. we are about to start the collection of the sample followed by the screening test. if your feeling unwell or have ANY reason for not proceeding, including fear of what the results might be, Then thats ok. Tell me that you are feeling dizzy and can't take the test and I can stop now - but once you open that pouch you have to complete the test or its " failed to produce sample" . Do you understand that the company will condider this a " Non Negative sample" and are you are happy to proceed?"

They break the seal on the pouch, remove the testing cup and again confirm the serial number, expiry date, and they sign their name on the cup and the testing number (provided by me from the paperwork) AT no point do I ever touch the testing cup.

I ask them to unclip the lid, inspect the cup, close the lid, and confirm that they are happy that it is new and undamaged.

They are then guided into into the toilet cubicle and observed from behind or timed ( side note: it takes approximately 21 seconds for a mammal to empty a full bladder, give or take about 7 seconds. +-30% Mice to elephants lol)

Any variation in time ( or shoulder /arm movements to access hidden pockets) or sounds ( 2 streams, starting stopping dripping etc... yeah I know) is noted - If I think its relevant. perhaps once in 500 tests someone tries the bleach trick. I just let them finish and we complete as normal and i pretend not to smell it. :-)

once they have finished providing the 100 - 150 ml sample (will work with 40ml), they seal the cup and return to the desk with me. I get them to place it on the table in between us on a disposable sheet.

We read off the temperature, from the front of the cup, We confirm the serial number, and I ask them to push and rotate the knob on the side of the cup, which releases the urine into the testing chamber within the cup and exposes the testing strips to the sample.

It takes approx 30 seconds for the control points to go positive, and while we wait i check the adulterant blocks.

PH
OXIDISERS
Specific Gravity
Creatine levels

We then check together the reagent strips for Control line and NON presence of any other markings, 2 lines is a NON NEG.

Side note - you never fail a drug test here - its a screening test to see if the sample needs to go to a Lab for GC/MS

Most guys pass, some are really nervous and check with me constantly.

IF i get a NON NEG, then it gets way more complex, 3 samples tubes taken under vaccuum from the still closed testing cup, LOTS of paperwork, double sealed and signed bags, secured cooler box, escorted by 2 people to the lab.

Mostly i just end up saying - " great mate - your all clear and good to go", they bundle the disposable towels into hazwaste, the sample cup is plastic bagged, and goes in the same bag, I isopropyl the desk - Change gloves. and bring in the next guy.

Lol sorry for the long winded explanation.

NOW if you want to PASS a drug test (which I don't condone as my testee's are generally using heavy equipment on the mines and lives are at risk.) The simplest way is not to take it.

Miss a shift, call in sick, Rebook it, funeral, car accident whatever.. you will get smacked, but you wont be a non neg and your sample will not end up at the lab, don't adulterate it, because it will still end up at the lab, and they will still find the metabolites anyway. Plus that test is WAY more expensive and you'll get a bill from your employer as well as lose your job!

Hey,

Hope that helped.

AN

sodium_stearate
Hazard to Others

Posts: 172
Registered: 22-4-2011
Location: guard duty at the checkpoint
Member Is Offline

Mood: "may we see your papers, please?"

Great post! That brings back memories of having
to pee in a cup at several jobs. One time I was forced
to make them wait several hours. That was the time I
was randomly selected a few minutes after I'd just
emptied out my morning coffee. I ended up sitting
around drinking lots of water until shortly before noon
when I pissed about a gallon! Needless to say, my employer
was NOT amused by this entire episode.

But at one point I was forced to tell them that I was
doing the best I could, going as fast as I could and that
if they wanted some piss, they'd just have to wait until
there was a fresh batch available!

I told them that if they'd hit me up a few minutes
earlier, that I could have given them as much as they
wanted right away.

"Opportunity is missed by most people
because it is dressed in overalls and it
looks like work" T.A. Edison
RogueRose
International Hazard

Posts: 1352
Registered: 16-6-2014
Member Is Offline

Thanks for all the replies everyone! I wasn't asking for anything specific and only contemplating the theory behind it b/c I'd seen a number of youtube vids and posts stating that tests can be beaten with a few drops of bleach (never state the concentration or amount), some shaking/mixing. I think the main drugs that were being asked about on those topics were marijuana, cocaine and amphetamines. - possibly opiates as well.

I never gave much thought to it as I never needed to but thought the oxidation process, if in the proper amounts (non excess of NaOCl) might just work in breaking down whatever is detected. I'm guessing something like this might be possible if one knew the exact amounts of metabolites (molar qty) in the specimine, but if not, you'd end up with excess oxidant or remaining metabolites.

Either way, there was some good info posted here, thanks again. I find it interesting that I can produce rocket fuel in my toilet bowl!!

 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Miscellaneous » drug tests - bleach vs h202? Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues   » Detritus   » Test Forum