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Author: Subject: Controlled Bacterial Nitrification (salpeter production, using nitrosomonas etc)
kclo4
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[*] posted on 29-10-2008 at 16:05


It has to be more then 20mg/L (aka 20ppm) since the problem with fish tanks is that it can get to high (past 100ppm) that is 100mg/L. I am doing the ppm conversion correctly right?
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[*] posted on 29-10-2008 at 16:49


NO3 is much heavier than H2O, it's not a 1:1 equivalence.

The conversion of nitrate to nitrogen, by denitrifying bacteria, shuts down before the nitrifying bacteria do. The production of nitrate starts to slow down in the 10 to 20 range, but may continue increasingly slowly to higher concentrations, from what I read. As conversion is slow anyway, pushing into the still slower range seems to be less than desirable.
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kclo4
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[*] posted on 29-10-2008 at 19:14


Oh I see, so I have done the ppm(mg/L) to grams wrong?
could you explain to me how exactly it is done then?
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Formatik
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[*] posted on 1-11-2008 at 09:10


I've got some more info on the oxidation of KCNO, but I don't know how well this side discussion fits in this thread mostly covering nitrification reactions.

I've included the bit about KCN for saftey reasons, it needs sufficient air. Heating to 700 to 900º (2-4 hrs) KCNO partially converts to KCN. The maximum of KCN (per 100 g reaction product) is 53.08 g KCN is obtained after 2 hrs at 900º (C.r. 161 [1915] 308).

About 3 hours heating of KCNO in a well dried stream of air oxidizes it to KNO3, the oxidation is accelerated through catalysts such as metallic Cu, Ni, Ag, Au or their salts, as well as traces of moisture in the air stream, where KCNO is primarily split into easily oxidizable NH3 and K2CO3 (Ber. 59 [1926] 210).
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[*] posted on 8-11-2008 at 06:48


I now found: The N-content of _peas_ is 6.25 %; also in big amounts (25 kg) they should be very cheap (50 % more expensive than wheat)
==> everybody may have seen, how quickly a pea-soup is gonna be the breeding ground of zillions of bacteriae !
The stuff contains maybe averything that any microorganism might like, so:
Why not make a pea-soup (100 l), give the right bacteriae into it and see the result ?

Unfortunately I have _no_ experience in anything microorganism-related, so I wouldn't know how to find the right bacteriae, but probably from where they should occur in nature ...
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kclo4
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[*] posted on 8-11-2008 at 19:57


Quote:
Originally posted by Formatik
I've got some more info on the oxidation of KCNO, but I don't know how well this side discussion fits in this thread mostly covering nitrification reactions.

I've included the bit about KCN for saftey reasons, it needs sufficient air. Heating to 700 to 900º (2-4 hrs) KCNO partially converts to KCN. The maximum of KCN (per 100 g reaction product) is 53.08 g KCN is obtained after 2 hrs at 900º (C.r. 161 [1915] 308).

About 3 hours heating of KCNO in a well dried stream of air oxidizes it to KNO3, the oxidation is accelerated through catalysts such as metallic Cu, Ni, Ag, Au or their salts, as well as traces of moisture in the air stream, where KCNO is primarily split into easily oxidizable NH3 and K2CO3 (Ber. 59 [1926] 210).


I doubt heating KOCN produces KCN. How would it?
With a reducer, of course.. but by itself? Seems unlikely.
I know KCN is oxidized in the air to KOCN.

Oh yeah, and I do like the Idea of oxidizing KOCN into KNO3, Any idea on how hot it would have to get?


[Edited on 8-11-2008 by kclo4]
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Formatik
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[*] posted on 8-11-2008 at 20:20


That bit about KCN is just heating by itself. I don't know what temperatures are needed since I haven't looked at the references, my likely guess is between 200 to 500º.
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[*] posted on 14-11-2008 at 17:07


I think at those tempuratures you might have problems with KNO3 decomposing, but perhaps not :)


400 °C is the decomposition temperature of KNO3, if it decomposes at those temperatures, I imagine it would be very hard to form it around those temperatures as well.
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Formatik
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[*] posted on 24-5-2009 at 12:59


Quote: Originally posted by Formatik  
About 3 hours heating [at 400 deg.] of KCNO in a well dried stream of air oxidizes it to KNO3, the oxidation is accelerated through catalysts such as metallic Cu, Ni, Ag, Au or their salts, as well as traces of moisture in the air stream, where KCNO is primarily split into easily oxidizable NH3 and K2CO3 (Ber. 59 [1926] 210).


The yields by this method are disappointing for sure, type of catalyst has an influence and with Ag powder the yield was highest at 22% of the nitrogen and slightly moist air, compared to Cu, Ni powder or their compounds. Oxidizing KCNO with KClO3 which has to be diluted with Na2CO3 or CaO (to avoid explosion) gets a better yield of 37.4% of the N, but still quite low. Another method uses CaCN2. Technical CaCN2 heated with Na2CO3 and small amount of catalyst under stirring under moderatley fast air stream at 400 deg., converts "the largest part" of the bound nitrogen to nitrate (DE439510). I've also got the Ber. 59 [1926], 204-212 ref., it's in my profile. It's quite interesting. Oxidizing CaCN2 or urea with solid inorganic peroxides has potential as the nitrate yield is modestly high, though requires large amounts of peroxides, e.g. deflagration of CaCN2 with Na2O2 gets 65% of the N yield.

Attachment: DE439510.pdf (79kB)
This file has been downloaded 440 times

[Edited on 24-5-2009 by Formatik]
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[*] posted on 24-5-2009 at 13:41


I see that the <1 MB pdf attachment on my last post has disappeared somehow. That's not a good sign. Not only can I not upload pdfs, old ones are disappearing....

While I'm here, a working link to the Gallica article (long, old, French), since Gallica has changed some lately and the link I gave before is not so great now
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k34941m.image.f431
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[*] posted on 12-8-2015 at 13:43


I'm running an experiment at the minute where I have gotten some of soil, added 0.75% NH4Cl sol to it and let the bacteria reproduce for a few days in some soil, then after about 3 days I washed the soil with more NH4Cl sol and transferred it to a 2L bottle with 1L of 0.75% sol in it.
I added powdered CaCO3 to it to neutralise any Nitric Acid formed during the process forming Calcium Nitrate.
I added an aquarium bubbler to it. So far it has been 2 days and this morning I took a small sample of the liquid and added NaOH solution to it, of course I could smell Ammonia indicating that all of the NH4Cl has not been fermented yet, however I also got a very fine precipitate of presumably Ca(OH)2.
The bacteria apparently take days to reproduce, they must consume a lot of ammonia before doing so.
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[*] posted on 12-9-2016 at 11:44


Actually, nitrate-selective ion exchange resin would be perfect for this project. It's already a mass-produced commodity, and can be reused indefinitely.
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[*] posted on 23-1-2017 at 14:49
nitrifying bacteria


I am in the midst of trying this using aquarium bacteria to produce nitrates from urea. My set up is a 5 gallon jug with a small aquarium air pump, small aquarium heater (82F) and moving bed filter media to maximize surface area for the bacteria to grow on. It takes at least a week or two just to get enough bacteria growing to get the moving bed media to circulate. I have been running for 6 weeks now and I have a positive test for at least a few grams of nitrates, it is just starting to barely indicate on a brown ring test, very slow but most of the time has been bacteria colony establishment at this point. I feed it about 5 g of urea a day and have some trace nutrients initially like phosphate, potassium, iron, calcium and magnesium. Urea is good food because the bacteria can hydrolyze it and use the CO2 for a carbon source as well. Getting enough oxygen to dissolve at some point might be a problem.
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[*] posted on 24-1-2017 at 04:31


Any idea what species you have growing in there?

Edit:
Quote:
Wiki: Nitrification inhibitors are chemical compounds that slow the nitrification of ammonia, ammonium-containing, or urea-containing fertilizers, which are applied to soil as fertilizers. These inhibitors can help reduce losses of nitrogen in soil that would otherwise be used by crops. Nitrification inhibitors are used widely, being added to approximately 50% of the fall-applied anhydrous ammonia in states in the U.S., like Illinois.[16] They are usually effective in increasing recovery of nitrogen fertilizer in row crops, but the level of effectiveness depends on external conditions and their benefits are most likely to be seen at less than optimal nitrogen rates.[17]
Are you sure your urea doesn't contain an inhibitor?

[Edited on 24-1-2017 by Tsjerk]

[Edited on 24-1-2017 by Tsjerk]
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[*] posted on 23-11-2017 at 06:53


I am currently growing bacteria in 30L of tap water and 500ml of granulated urea and three flower food sticks for phosphorous and micronutrients. It is hard to tell if it has changed but it strongly smells of ammonia so i think something is happening in there.

How concentrated amonium nitrate solution can the bacteria survive in?

There is this source but i have no idea if it is accurate: http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

[Edited on 23-11-2017 by Σldritch]
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