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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
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Mood: Waiting for spring
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Rogue Science and the Hive both formed before I was using the internet for chemistry with any regularity. This site started in 2002, the Hive was born
in (I think) 1997 and died in 2004, and I don't recall exactly when Rogue Science started but it was obviously around before Sciencemadness.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
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That's a partial reply and perhaps a wee bit evasive.
Was the collapse of the Hive not mainly caused by the hue and cry from mostly Euro members after the invasion of Iraq? Resulting in the defection of
the majority of members, who were Americans? I ask because that is how it was explained to me by a former Hive B. on this forum in a PM.
And is this not the basis for your insistance on NO political discussion on this forum?
Were you not a member of roguesci prior to starting SM?
I won't ask you why you did so because it is obvopis that had you been happy with the way RS was going you would not have taken such a step.
It is commendable that you did, the little I saw of RS sucks.
None of us signed a loyalty oath or noncompetition agreement did we?
You run SM as a benign dictator (sole proprietor) amd if someone reaches an impasse with you, there is nothing left for it but to decamp. Is this not
what has happened here?
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
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Mood: Waiting for spring
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I didn't severely curtail political and other off-topic discussion that usually leads to arguments until 2007. You can still see the stickied thread
ATTENTION ALL ARGUMENTATIVE PEOPLE in Forum Matters.
I've never heard an explanation for the Hive collapse that makes total sense to me. I don't recall the Iraq arguments being worse there than on dozens
of other forums that survived. I seem to recall at the time that the immediate explanation was the web hosting company where the Hive lived was
changing hands, and the new management did not want to host such a famous, or infamous, site. It seemed plausible at the outset but something like
that shouldn't have kept it offline for 5 months, much less 5 years. The other theories I have heard are more conspiracy-oriented and like other
conspiracies they may be hard to confirm or debunk until many more years have passed.
Rogue Science and the Hive were the first sites I saw where people competently discussed and practiced chemistry without institutional support. More
than competently, I should say -- the Hive had a lot of great chemistry that wasn't really production-oriented. Rogue Science to a lesser extent, but
it was still miles beyond what I'd come to expect from reading the occasional mad bomber post in sci.chem on Usenet or old BBS "text philes."
I started Sciencemadness because I wanted to discuss a broader range of chemistry topics, didn't care for a particular Rogue Science moderator (who
last I saw was extradited from Canada for murder, not as surprising as it may sound), and didn't want to discuss improvised weapons. I have no ill
will toward anyone who wants to leave here and construct a new forum that more closely matches their own ideals.
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Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
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Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
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The Hive was a private forum and membership was by invitation only, wasn't it? There is a whole thread on this forum about the demise of The Hive and
if I look in there I will see who it was with the PM and explanation I repeated above. He never did so in the thread. He claimed to have been a Bee
but I cannot say for sure, nor do I recall what handle he used on The Hive or whether he ever gave it here.
That other forums survived the flames about Iraq is hardly an argument. Something brought down The Hive, so it will do till a better explanation comes
along. As you say, what has kept it down all these years is even more obscure.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Nicodem
Super Moderator
Posts: 4230
Registered: 28-12-2004
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You obviously know almost nothing about The Hive and even what you know is only some second hand misinformation. The forum was public and anyone could
register, this including absolutely anybody, from kewls, tweakers, chemists to law enforcement officers. The forum was much more heavily moderated
than ScienceMadness and no argument among the membership could have ever had any influence on its existence. Destructively oriented members would be
banned from posting. For example, members like you would not be treated as liberally as you are treated here. I also think you starting your own forum
is an excellent idea.
Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  | | I reserve the right to repond ro lies. Let all know that the liar solo is the one who is causing my departure. It was his flaming that caused Nicodem
to act, and polverone sided with his mod. All three share reponsibility but solo most of all. Doubtless he is pleased with himself.
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Don't create lies about it. It was yourself that caused your pretended departure or whatever this can be called. I only informed you that your
incitations to flame wars and constant humiliating of other members will not be tolerated any more. No action whatsoever has been taken, yet. Solo has
nothing to do with it. It was purely your decision to involve your political views and pathology in your discourse instead to stick to science.
Needless to say, you knew very well that we have a moratorium on political discussions - and for two years you have been unjustly allowed to express
your ideological opinions for too many times, constantly expressing symptoms of greed for power and perversely humiliating and insulting our members.
Obviously you must have noticed that the atmosphere you created here makes it very unpleasant to discuss amateur chemistry. As a consequence some of
the best members left and some refrain from posting as much as they used to. You are intelligent enough to understand that every abuse has its limits.
If you want to be king of Mordor, create your own kingdom and the orcs will follow.
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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Sauron
International Hazard
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Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
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Nicodem, you dissemble. You prevaricate. You fucking LIE. You characterise my antagonism toward drug cooks as political and ideological when you know
full well they are not. Or then you would have to admit that your own bias in favor of ullucut drugs is just as "ideological" and "political" - or
else just as not. You can't say one without the other withour being the nakedest of hypocrits - not that that has ever stopped you before.
The one who told me The Hive was member by invitation was your pal Orgie (Organikum) so take it up with him.
Many ANTI-DRUG members have left and more refrain from posting not because of me obviously but because you seek to create a haven for cooks. As long
as they meet certain minimal standards of competence. I say a competent drug cook is a lot more dangerous than a hopeless wannabe cook. You know drug
cookery is not AMATEUR ANYTHING it is FOR MONEY yet you seek to coddle and cradle it here. You so do despite the fact that it is KILLING amateur
chemistry the very thing this forum is supposed to support.
Shame on you, Nicodem, you are the worst thing that has happened to this forum and making you a mod the worst move polverone ever made.
I expect you will censor me or close this thread before long, look at the thread views, it's a bully pulpit as TR would say. Show everyone what you
are made ofm Nicodem. Josef Giebbels would have been proud of you, Orwell would have named you Minister of Truth.
Just remember, the next timr you crap on a good member got no good trason, or for petty animus or your own bias. a thousand people who read this
thread will be watching and they will remember my words and they will see you for what you are.
[Edited on 8-7-2009 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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watson.fawkes
International Hazard
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Registered: 16-8-2008
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I have to say, this whole exchange
reminds me of that old Bugs Bunny cartoon: "Shut up shuttin' up!".
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hissingnoise
International Hazard
Posts: 3940
Registered: 26-12-2002
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Mood: Pulverulescent!
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It's interesting, it's informing and at times it sounds like schoolgirls squabbling. . .
Sauron, you seem bent on elevating trivia; what's gotten into you?---this is close to ordinary pettiness!
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
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A reminder: I imposed a policy of discouraging lazy or ignorant drug seekers and pyro enthusiasts who just want spoon-feeding before Nicodem was a
moderator. There's a softer policy in place of discouraging laziness in general, but it's especially important to discourage laziness when it comes to
topics related to drugs and energetic materials, since thrill-seekers far outnumber (e.g.) lazy young chemists who are seeking an easy route to fruity
esters or giant crystals. We can tolerate a few of the latter, given their rarity, but this forum would quickly become unmanageable if it were known
as a place that coddles lazy psychonauts or pyromaniacs.
It is my own policy, and one that I am unlikely to change, that anyone who wants to discuss chemistry can do so here as long as they use the
language of chemistry, show that they aren't just looking to be spoonfed synthetic "recipes," and don't explicitly or implicitly drag legalities into
technical discussions. That is why members can discuss the synthesis of TNT, ephedrine, and VX alike. This liberal discussion policy almost certainly
would not fly in Germany, probably not in Australia either, but fortunately the United States still has reasonably robust speech protections and both
I and the server that runs Sciencemadness are located there.
I realize that not everybody is comfortable with this policy. I have received many suggestions over the years that I should ban discussion that could
enable the production of propellants, explosives, poisons, or psychoactive drugs. I have tried to mitigate the worst tendencies of those discussions
while preserving the freedom to discuss the chemistry. If a topic is fit to discuss in peer reviewed literature I think it is also fit to discuss
here, provided that you communicate like a scientist and not a clandestine entrepreneur or mad bomber.
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12AX7
Post Harlot
Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline
Mood: informative
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Or Everybody Loves Raymond, "The Goodbye Tour".
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chloric1
International Hazard
Posts: 1070
Registered: 8-10-2003
Location: GroupVII of the periodic table
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Mood: Stoichiometrically Balanced
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| Quote: Originally posted by Sauron | | You run SM as a benign dictator (sole proprietor) amd if someone reaches an impasse with you, there is nothing left for it but to decamp. Is this not
what has happened here? |
Sauron, you are really sinking to a new low. I distinctly remember when Polverone had to intervene in heated topics. As I recall it was about the
time of your debut at sciencemadness.
I looked past your atagonist disposition simply based on your generousity in sharing references and expertise in phosphorus and organic chemistry.
But now, you are just bitter and onery. Even if you are the sole chem prodigy of Thailand, you, my friend, are unapproachable and unreasonable.
Your consististant history of flaming clearly displays your arrogance and your complete disregard for your fellow man.
In closing, I wish you luck in your endeavors.
Fellow molecular manipulator
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Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
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Dope cooks have np regard for their fellow man. They are happy to poison them.
I rejoice in the unveiling of my enemies. In most cases, no surprise.
Polverone, you have merely restated your diffident and self-defeating policies. Worse, you set the fox to guard the henhouse. The pattern of Nicodem's
selective enforcement is clear.
I have come to realize that polverone's mom-policies are by design. He wants to appear to be ant-cook without really purging this community of the
dope cooks. The notion that cooks who can talk the talk and cite references are acceptable, is absurd and reprehensible. Polverone is therefore part
of the problem, not part of the solution.
This issue will not disappear with me. It will be back, and ultimately it will scatter this forum to the winds. Amateur chemists are an endangered
species because of the cooks. Already home labs are presumed to be drug labs and chemical availability to amateurs is dwingling. All because of the
blind avarice of the cooks. You don't like the message? Sure, kill the messenger. The message will remain. You can't kill the truth.
St. Nicodemus, what a joke. I'll take a Tolkein character over an apocryphal book of the Bible anytime. As another member said in the Worst Books
thread: myths of tribal nomads. In the case of Nicodemus ben Gurion, a fake book penned in the Middle Ages a millenium after his death. Got the Holy
Grail, Nickie? Or did you pluck the name out of the Talmud?
[Edited on 8-7-2009 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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solo
International Hazard
Posts: 3967
Registered: 9-12-2002
Location: Estados Unidos de La Republica Mexicana
Member Is Offline
Mood: ....getting old and drowning in a sea of knowledge
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........................does you battery ever run out and i don't mean your energizer but your insults and unkind remarks for those that assisted you
one time or another, now that you realize that not everyone shares your philosophy and as you should realize, that's a personal thing, but you choose
to try to infect others with your ideas and myopic view of personal rights....why not just leave and leave what remains of your good deeds speak for
themselves ......no, you can't fix it, work on you karma before it comes back at you and devours you, as you've been seeding very bad vibes and
blaming others for you lack of self control.........solo
It's better to die on your feet, than live on your knees....Emiliano Zapata.
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entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fissile
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| Quote: Originally posted by Sauron |
Already home labs are presumed to be drug labs and chemical availability to amateurs is dwingling. All because of the blind avarice of the cooks. You
don't like the message? Sure, kill the messenger. The message will remain. You can't kill the truth.
[Edited on 8-7-2009 by Sauron] |
And therein resides more than a little truth. It is the elephant in the room on this forum.
Rosco Bodine expressed it rather well back in 2004:
Damn , is this place turning into a dope cookers convention ?
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?action=pri...
[Edited on 8-7-2009 by entropy51]
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Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
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Solo
Until you arrived in this thread to spread lies I was content to remain silent, so you have no one else to blame.
What's with the karma and vibes crap, you are sounding like some old beaner hippie, or a bad imitation of Cheech. Sure, it's your personal right to be
a criminal. Just look at all the wonderful things this has done for Mexico. Soon your country will sink below Burma in prestige. Personal freedom, my
ass.
Entropy
You know thw answer to your question, it is therefore rhetorical is it not?
Many say this privately. Thanks fopr doing so publicly.
[Edited on 8-7-2009 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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benzylchloride1
Hazard to Others
Posts: 299
Registered: 16-3-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pushing the envelope of synthetic chemistry in one's basement
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Drug cooks are destroying amateur chemistry. I have been accused of being a drug cook by a professor that I once took a class from. I merely asked
this professor if I could obtain some empty 4L solvent bottles for my HPLC system. He told me that I was going to be thrown in jail because amateur
chemistry in his opinion is totally illegal. This professor made his students sign an agreement that they would not buy glassware for personal
experiments. Posts on organic chemicals that are not in any way drug related are neglected in the organic chemistry forum. Topics such as amphetamine
and ketamine synthesis turn many people off to this forum. Most people cannot buy phosphorous, iodine, and other useful chemicals because a few low
life tweekers use these chemicals to make some thing to get a high off of. Discussion that is directly drug related, such as amphetamine synthesis
should be barred from this board. There are other forums on the web for this discussion. I am not saying that we should ban talk on so called
precursors like benzaldehyde and other list 1 chemicals, as these chemicals are useful for many non durg related synthesises. As Sauron stated, we are
losing members because of the large amount of discussion about drugs.
Amateur NMR spectroscopist
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Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
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Mood: Manic Expressive
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Here in lies the problem with amature chemistry and the causes do not lie in the hands of drug cooks but in the hands of people that believe a
chemical has one use and one use only... to make drugs, Why because some use it to make drugs that must be what its for. Now no one should have this
chemical because if they do they must be making drugs right.
Im sorry but I feel that people with this mind set are far more detrimental to our hobby then drug cooks ever could be. This mindset is whats
spreading the propaganda that constantly has our hobby under scrutiny. If we can not get rid of this mindset in our own community how do we expect non
chemist to understand this?
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
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Mood: metastable
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sedit
To the extent that your putative mind set exists at all, it arose because of the cooks and certainly could not have existed before there were drug
cooks. So cooks remain the cause.
I dispute your theory on its face.
benzylchloride
Bravissimo!
In 1919 Michael Collins, only a week out of an English jail after the 1916 Easter Rising, tols a crown of Irish supporters:
The RIC want to shut me up, jail me, conscript me, kill me, who knows? If they shut me up, who will take my place>"
Every hand in the crowd was raised.
Collins went on to be architect of the old IRA and commander of the Free State Army till his assassination 4 years later by followers of Eamon de
Valera.
Soon Polverone or Nicodem, two sides of the same coin, will shut me up.
WHO WILL TAKE MY PLACE?
[Edited on 8-7-2009 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fissile
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| Quote: Originally posted by benzylchloride1 | | Posts on organic chemicals that are not in any way drug related are neglected in the organic chemistry forum. Topics such as amphetamine and ketamine
synthesis turn many people off to this forum. Most people cannot buy phosphorous, iodine, and other useful chemicals because a few low life tweekers
use these chemicals to make some thing to get a high off of. Discussion that is directly drug related, such as amphetamine synthesis should be barred
from this board. There are other forums on the web for this discussion. I am not saying that we should ban talk on so called precursors like
benzaldehyde and other list 1 chemicals, as these chemicals are useful for many non durg related synthesises. As Sauron stated, we are losing members
because of the large amount of discussion about drugs. |
Someone once said "Professional chemists discuss illegal drugs about as often as kindergarten teachers discuss child pornography - never."
Forum members as old as Sauron and myself can remember the days when the local pharmacist would sell us any chemical we needed. We could even order
from the major lab suppliers. We can also remember the 1970's and 80's when the rise of drug abuse paralleled the disappearance of reagents and
glassware. It came long before the war on terror. That is no coincidence.
[Edited on 8-7-2009 by entropy51]
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Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Manic Expressive
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| Quote: Originally posted by Sauron | To the extent that your putative mind set exists at all, it arose because of the cooks and certainly could not have existed before there were drug
cooks. So cooks remain the cause.
I dispute your theory on its face. |
This in its essence is true but understand that if it was not 'cooks' it would be bombs and if not bombs it would be nerve gas. No matter, paranoia
will run rampant with the powers that be because people have always feared powers that they don't understand. If something in anyway shape or form can
be made into something dangerous and lawmakers them self do not understand it then it must be made illegal.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
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Sedit
The suppression of amateur chemistry/home labs is about 95% drugs driven, 3% explosives and the baseline noise CW.
You must have missed what I said upthread about an ideal forum that bans all three topics.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
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Mood: Fissile
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Sedit said "This in its essence is true but understand that if it was not 'cooks' it would be bombs and if not bombs it would be nerve gas."
But my good friend Sedit, it IS cooks! That's how we got here. That's why we have to go skulking around the hardware stores reading labels and
trying to find simple chemicals OTC. You're too young to remember, but time was I just gave the pharmacist a list and he ordered it. Apparently some
European members can still do that. Why? Because they don't have the drug problem that the US does.
Better to remain silent and appear a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
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Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
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Mood: Manic Expressive
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Possibly but I still place blame more on the DEA more then the cooks. You have not seen ammonia nitrate baned by the DOD because its been used to bomb
places such as the first WTC bombings and such because there not firing off the guns half cocked like other agencys may be. If drugs where ever
leglized do you feel that they would lift the restrictions on the chemicals because I don't. That would cut into the profit and paychecks they make
from cooks just as it does now.
Either way these are forms of opinions that are like religion and no amount of discussion would change your mind nor mind for that matter so its more
then likely best to just leave it along and let folks keep the individual opinions on the matter.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
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Who says the EU does not have a drug problem?
They just respond to it differently.
Remember the 600 simultaneous raids in 4 nations last year or was it early this year? One of our members was raided. In Germany.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
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| Quote: Originally posted by benzylchloride1 | | Drug cooks are destroying amateur chemistry. I have been accused of being a drug cook by a professor that I once took a class from. I merely asked
this professor if I could obtain some empty 4L solvent bottles for my HPLC system. He told me that I was going to be thrown in jail because amateur
chemistry in his opinion is totally illegal. This professor made his students sign an agreement that they would not buy glassware for personal
experiments. Posts on organic chemicals that are not in any way drug related are neglected in the organic chemistry forum. Topics such as amphetamine
and ketamine synthesis turn many people off to this forum. Most people cannot buy phosphorous, iodine, and other useful chemicals because a few low
life tweekers use these chemicals to make some thing to get a high off of. Discussion that is directly drug related, such as amphetamine synthesis
should be barred from this board. There are other forums on the web for this discussion. I am not saying that we should ban talk on so called
precursors like benzaldehyde and other list 1 chemicals, as these chemicals are useful for many non durg related synthesises. As Sauron stated, we are
losing members because of the large amount of discussion about drugs. |
We already have rules against "cooking" threads, SWIM-talk and associated slang, the preparation of common street drugs, and hinting that you will use
some chemical or other for illicit purposes later. The rules have evolved over time so there are some older threads still open that explicitly mention
drugs that are controlled in most of the world. If people bump those and continue to discuss drug production, report them. The threads will be cleaned
up and/or closed as appropriate. I will not censor discussion of other chemistry that could somehow be useful to drug discussion (as this describes a
huge swath of topics).
I should go a step further and say that while I won't permit street drug production discussion, neither will I permit constant attacks on members
whose interests include or are suspected to include drug chemistry. Posts should be reported if they break the rules. If no rules are broken but you
suspect a member's intentions, you're under no obligation to help them but you are obligated to remain civil.
If you do leave for a new forum with stricter rules I hope you print out and laminate your new member registration. That way if you are ever under
suspicion by professors, police, or chemical vendors you can show them the copy and they will understand that you should be treated as a curious human
being, presumed innocent. This will make your life easier and free up resources that should be devoted to all those other people who need a babysitter
until they've died of old age.
If only I had conducted a thorough hunt for lawbreakers here back in 2003, I would be able to find a vendor who would sell me red phosphorus today
 They might initially say "we won't sell phosphorus to individuals, because
thousands of tweakers would leave the matchbook industry in the lurch during a recession." I could respond "No, I run a forum of chemists with
very strict rules against street drugs and allied chemistry. You're not even allowed to discuss peptide coupling without signing a loyalty
oath denouncing tryptamines." Then they'd see the light and ship me 5 kilos as soon as the check cleared.
[Edited on 7-9-2009 by Polverone]
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