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Author: Subject: I need someone from the planet Vulcan
Barn Owl
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[*] posted on 6-10-2009 at 14:31
I need someone from the planet Vulcan


I looked for an intro forum but could not find it so I will introduce myself and ask a question here. My name is Mike and I am by no means a scientist, more a car nut. I am 41 and am on several car/truck forums and I love to solve problems that are presented to me. I am a Facilities Manager by day and a welding instructor by night. Chemistry is a big weakness for me so please talk in simple terms.
I am in the process of customizing a 1969 Chevy C10. The tires I would like to put on the truck are the Goodyear tires with the jumbo white letters you see on the race cars, problem is they do not sell them to regular users, only track and strip applications. Being that this is only a street truck The small white letters are all that is available for street use. I bought myself some white nitrile rubber, the vector file, and a friend of mine who owns a sign shop laser cut the letters out for me. they look really awesome and I thought that I would have the glue thing figured out by now.
I am planning on adhering the letters to Goodyear tires so there is no conflict or hurt feelings but what I need is some supper high strength vulcanizing glue. I have tried the contact cement and the tire repair glue (the pro stuff that the garages use) and rubber cement, all with varying degrees of success. I was reading up on the vulcanizing process and the use of accellerants and catalysts is all part of the process. I figured that I needed to talk to someone who #1 likes to trouble shoot problems and #2 knows what their talking about. The sales rep at the glue factory could fulfill neither of those requirements.
So here I am, are there any vulcanoligists in the house?
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JohnWW
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[*] posted on 6-10-2009 at 14:48


The glue or solvent that comes in tubes with bicycle inner-tube puncture repair kits may do the job; it dissolves rubber. I am not sure what it is, but from its smell it may contain acetone or similar ketone.
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crazyboy
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[*] posted on 6-10-2009 at 14:55


What JohnWW suggested might work or you could use that laser to cut out a stencil of the letters and spray paint or use regular paint to apply the letters. Vulcanization is used to make pieces of plastic more durable and it won't really help adhere very thin letters to a tire, even if it did vulcanization is a serious deal not something you would want to undertake.



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ketel-one
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[*] posted on 6-10-2009 at 20:35


Don't know what the difference is but the bike tire repair kit I usually buy (small green box, I think it's German or Swiss made repair kits or something) says "vulcanizing fluid". One from a department store says "rubber cement". Hmm.

I think vulcanization would work except that you would have to really carefully sand the letters out on the tire and carefully apply vulcanizing fluid so that the letters are completely glued yet the tire around them is untouched. I don't think it will even be a problem that they'll be a bit raised up, it barely feels raised after applying patches to flat bike tires and they're probably a lot thicker then careful letters. If there's any problem is that I think that the letters would fall off too easily, as in somebody could just walk by and rip one off.

[Edited on 7-10-2009 by ketel-one]
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merrlin
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[*] posted on 6-10-2009 at 22:13


Vulcanizing usually implies a reaction that produces crosslinking. Considering the wide variation in the composition of "rubber" I suspect that you will have to make sure that a particular compound would be able to produce crosslinking between nitrile and the composition of your tires. For general adhesive bonding it would be easier to roughen the tire surface and use an adhesive compounded for the nitrile. If you want to try a nitrile adhesive:



Attachment: nitrile_adhesive.pdf (48kB)
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Barn Owl
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[*] posted on 7-10-2009 at 07:18


Merrlin, Yes in the vulcanizing process cross linking would have to occur between the nitril and the rubber in the tire this is the main reason for my question, Is there such a process that will vulcanize both compounds of rubber? , I have tried cold vulcanizing fluid from a tire patch company and it did not seem to vulcanize anything. It seemed more like contact cement and the melting process never occurred even on the tire. Those little bike patches have a special backing on the patch that is designed to work with the glue. Obviously my letters do not have that backing and the sample letters were able to be lifted off with some effort but whole and intact. My desire it to find a process that would tear the letter in half trying to pull it off. What I have not tried is heat. Barge contact cement is a glue that we used to use in repairing our rock climbing shoes when they would wear out and we would have to put a new sole on the shoe. the process involved heating the rubber after the glue was on then when both sides were hot sticking them together. Still this is a contact cement process and not a vulcanizing one. I am still on the hunt for a process so if you come across one then let me know
Thanks
Mike

[Edited on 7-10-2009 by Barn Owl]
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AngelEyes
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[*] posted on 7-10-2009 at 08:02


I was under the impression that 'vulcanising' was heating to a fairly high temp, derived from Vulcanism (volcanoes and stuff).

Anyway, if you can't get any 'rubber cement' that'll do the job then why not use plain old Epoxy resin? It's cheap, strong, temperature and water resistant and has enough give in it to go with the flow. Plus, I've never come across anything that Epoxy resin won't stick.

Cheers


Angel




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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 7-10-2009 at 09:04


Epoxy resin will stick to a variety of materials but it will degrade fairly quickly.
Moisture, oil and temperatures above 30*C will cause it to fail within months or weeks, depending on the conditions.
A solvent cement such as plumbers use to weld PVC might work, but again, there's no guarantee.
There may be a type of paint that could be applied using stencils which would work better than rubber cut-outs but that's of little use to Barn Owl since he's gone the rubber route. . .
Vulcanisation btw, takes its name from the use of sulphur in the original process.
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merrlin
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[*] posted on 7-10-2009 at 11:54


There is a lot of discussion in the patent literature, along with some detail on compositions. Below is an example of a patent dealing with crosslinking between different types of rubber. It would probably be a good idea if you found out what the composition of the tire rubber is. If you find a relevant patent disclosure, you can also try contacting the inventor(s). In most cases, inventors will be inclined to discuss their inventions. However, some companies have patent application quotas that lead to "forced invention" and annoyed engineers.




Attachment: United States Patent 5473017_Intervulcanized elastomer blends.mht (108kB)
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Barn Owl
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[*] posted on 7-10-2009 at 15:58


There are two kinds of vulcanization; heat and chemically activated. I have tried the chemically activated with mediocre results.
The epoxy comment got me thinking and I called 3M they directed me to this link
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTt...
Which seems like a good possibility since it is designed to stay flexible and has a very high shear strength. I am concerned about the breakdown as hissing noise brought up. Which is the main thing that has caused the contact cement to fail. I also talked to a retread specialist today and they use a gum layer that will chemically adhere to both sides then when the two are stuck together it is a permanent bond. Only trouble is that the gum layer is .060 thick and so are the rubber letters so the letters would be sticking out .125 from the tire, which is a little far for me. The whole deal is for it to look authentic as possible.
I think that I will order a tube of the 3M stuff it is only $15 and is worth a shot. I never knew that epoxy could be made to be flexible.

[Edited on 7-10-2009 by Barn Owl]
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Sedit
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[*] posted on 7-10-2009 at 16:40


Vulcanising is the process of adding sulfur to your rubber IIRC(Sulfur...Vulcan.. get it?). This sulfur doping atom heated with the rubber causes the sulfur to bound to multiple polymer strands and tie them together as a flexible but stronger polymer. I am no means an expert here on this subject just regurgitating information I remember hearing when I was younger.

However I don't really feel you need this crosslinking to hold the letters on there just something that will dissolve both rubbers and form a bounding layer like they do with PVC pipes and the "glue". You want the solvent to be volitile and it would more then likely be favorable to include a small amount of the rubbers in the glue as well. Sand the area slightly and wash both sides prior to pressing it with solvent inorder to soften the rubbers to allow and easy merging the two rubbers. Apply a goopy mixture of solvent and rubbers and you should be all set. This is the way they bound plastics and doing so with rubbers should work just as well.

Hope some of this made sence to you. Its all theory but no doubt how I would go about it given the same problem.





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[*] posted on 7-10-2009 at 22:12


Forget about 'vulcanising' it is an often misused term. The compound in your tires is already cured.The trick to rubber compound adhesion is to make sure your surface is fully 'tacked' There is no substitute for toluene.Scrub your both surfaces with toluene and you'll get pretty good adhesion even without a cement,so any rubber cement will do.Make sure your registration is right,cause once on,it ain't coming off.



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Barn Owl
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[*] posted on 8-10-2009 at 06:04


Starman I know what you mean about tacking up. After a frustrating read last night about accelerants and ending up in the same spot in which I left, I decided to see if I could try to dissolve some of the rubber prior to gluing to see if that made a difference. All I had was some acrylic cement that melts two pieces of acrylic together and then disappears. it has several solvents in it and is pretty strong stuff. Rubbed it on the tire after buffing and it gave it not tacky feel but the rubber surface was definitely softer and grabbed my finger more as I rubbed it along. Tried the best contact cement that had worked previously along this time with heat. It's curing over night so I will report back on the progress. Were does one find Toluene?
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watson.fawkes
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[*] posted on 8-10-2009 at 08:22


Quote: Originally posted by Barn Owl  
Were does one find Toluene?
It's frequently available with the other solvents in the paint department of your local big box hardware store.
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Barn Owl
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[*] posted on 8-10-2009 at 21:41


Cool I will check it out and let you guys know, Thanks for all the help with this.
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[*] posted on 8-10-2009 at 22:10


I should add make sure you work in a well ventilated area - otherwise you'll get the giggles and lose a few brain cells.



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Barn Owl
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[*] posted on 10-10-2009 at 05:53


Working in the enviornment I do and with the solvents that I have over the course of my life, I have had my share of giggles and headaches. Thanks for the heads up though.
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Barn Owl
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[*] posted on 7-2-2010 at 03:25


Hey guys looks like you have made a few upgrades to the site since the last time I was here, looks great.
Just to bring you all up to speed as to what my research has found, because a puzzle is no fun unless there is an answer.
The new generation of playground surfaces uses ground up tires that is called "crumb rubber". This rubber is then sold to companies who bond this product together using alaphatic polyisocyanates which really is not a glue but more a chemical reaction that cross links the different rubber strands together. That is as much as I understand about the product from talking the the company that installs these surfaces. The closest I could find it to my location was L.A., which is about 1.5 hours away. At a cost of $200 per 5 gallon bucket (which is the smallest amount sold) I was not to jazzed about this option, but I wanted a good end result or this project was worthless.
The guy from the company that had the stuff was an old hot rodder and suggested that I try the polyurethane adhesive that they glue windshields to cars with, it is much less expensive and is readily available. I was skeptical since I had tried many different kinds of glues, I just wanted to finish my project with something that I knew would work. He said if the test was unsuccessful that he would sell me a quart of his product.
So I got 3/4 used tube of the 3m adhesive from the local automotive window shop for free and tried it on a sample. I waited the 48 hours for full cure and then tried to peel the sample off and to my surprise it started to rip the sample in half. It had excellent adhesion and is designed for harsh UV environments and is black in color. So I have found my product that will work the best. If any of you guys ever need to glue something to rubber thy this stuff it really holds well
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[*] posted on 7-2-2010 at 12:30


Vulcanization requires heating which will damage the sidewalls.
Understand that tire lettering is made that way already W I T H
the tire itself and it is not lettered as an after thought. You tried
the rubber repair patch kit and you see the shortcomings of doing
it that way. The only alternative might be DAP contact cement.
But you already found a viable alternative and have good results.

.
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Barn Owl
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[*] posted on 8-2-2010 at 19:55


The contact cement was actually tested well but broke down over the corse of two or three months because there was no uv inhibitors in the cement. and the test would start to peel. I think that this polyeurethane is the best product for the task. It is still in the longevity test, I like to leave it in the sun for atleast 6 months before I am convinced.
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