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Author: Subject: Creation of nitrates from non-nitrates
moo409
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[*] posted on 31-12-2003 at 17:34
Creation of nitrates from non-nitrates


I have a question in regards to the creation of a nitrate ion without the use of any prior nitrates, much in the same way sulfuric acid can be made with no prior sulfate ions.

2SO2+ O2 ----> 2SO3 (requires 400+ deg. c)
H2O + SO3 ----> H2SO4
OR
SO2 + H2O + NO2 ----> H2SO4 + NO
(NO is dissolved from final product)
Is a similar process possible for nitrate compounds other than the following reaction?:

4NO2(aq) + 2H2O(l) + O2(g) ----> 4HNO3(aq)

ps: happy 2004.

-MOO

[Edited on 1-1-2004 by moo409]




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[*] posted on 1-1-2004 at 09:27


Of course it will work. Make nitric acid, and then you can make nitrates. Quite simple.
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[*] posted on 1-1-2004 at 15:15


Mumbles, he specifically said without nitric acid.

IIRC, bubbling NO2 through KOH will form KNO2 and KNO3. But HNO3 is an intermediate species in this reaction...




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moo409
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[*] posted on 1-1-2004 at 15:55


Quote:
Originally posted by vulture
Mumbles, he specifically said without nitric acid.

IIRC, bubbling NO2 through KOH will form KNO2 and KNO3. But HNO3 is an intermediate species in this reaction...


Ok thanks...I'm guessing NaOH would work just as fine also?
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[*] posted on 1-1-2004 at 19:37


From looking through at his post it seemed he just wanted to make the ion. The equations, for both the sulfate and nitrate, are for the corresponding acids. I took it to mean he wanted to make the acids then create the salts. When I said make, I was refering to his suggested method. Sorry, I probably should have made it a bit more clear.
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moo409
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[*] posted on 5-1-2004 at 17:54


yes that is correct...im basicly just trying to make the ion...doesnt matter if its a salt or acid (salts can always be converted to acids)
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[*] posted on 6-1-2004 at 02:34


Sure, burn sulphur to get SO<sub>2</sub> and then react this with water to get hydrogen sulphate... but how are you going to get NO<sub>2</sub> if not from a nitrate? It's not easy to burn Nitrogen.

Although you could maybe burn Ammonia, which is quite easily generated from a strong base and ammonia salt, to produce NO<sub>x</sub> and water vapour. Not sure how you'd condense all the fumes into solution, though, and it would be probably take ages to get any useful yield.

[Edited on 6-1-2004 by AngelEyes]
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[*] posted on 6-1-2004 at 11:02
Nitrates from Ammonia


Just the other day i was experimenting with
ammonia and iso-propyl alcohol.
I took 1 oz of ammonia and mixed it with 1 oz
of iso-propyl alcohol[CH3-CH(OH)-CH3]
.
I reacted it with NaOCl which gave a
crystally precipitate which sank in time.
I extracted this with a baster and evaporated
in an evaporation dish.
I got a good yield of crystals.About 2-5 mg.
My theory is that this is CH3COCH3+NaH(OH)+
ClNH3
This is Proponone,Sodium Hydride(Hydroxide)
and the crystal material left over is a
chloral nitrate(ClNH3)This reaction of course also
generated chlorine gas and chloric acid but
the salts did not contain a chloric or
ammonium taste to it
My general theory is that the acetone is
neutralized by the Sodium Hydride in some way
and that the ClNH3 is actually a salt of
ammonia(acids make water dissolvable salts)




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[*] posted on 6-1-2004 at 11:25


How well does sodium chloride disolve in 50 % IPA, and WTF does this have to do with the topic?

[Edited on 6-1-2004 by unionised]
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[*] posted on 7-1-2004 at 02:10


You took 1oz of ammonia (liquid, salt?) and mixed with 1oz of Isopropyl (for which you actually got the formula right) and got a 'good yield' of 2-5 mg. Milligrams?!?!


Quote:

My theory is that this is CH3COCH3+NaH(OH)+
ClNH3
This is Proponone,Sodium Hydride(Hydroxide)
and the crystal material left over is a
chloral nitrate(ClNH3)This reaction of course also
generated chlorine gas and chloric acid


Sodium Hydride? ClNH<sub>3</sub> is chloral Nitrate? I don't see a nitrate ion there... ClNH<sub>3</sub> is not a valid formala anyway I reckon.

Also generated chloric acid? With ammonia? Hmmm......
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[*] posted on 7-1-2004 at 03:38


And you tasted the what?! Why the hell would you taste ANYTHING you make? :o
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[*] posted on 7-1-2004 at 06:32


In my view, the simplest way to come by an adequate quantity of nitrates is to obtain some fertilizers. Most of them contain lots of nitrates that are readily soluble in water and consequently are easily separated and purified. Fertilizers aren't expensive either, so I see no reason why would anyone want to synthesize them from other compounds, except for pure fun. If this is the case, then yield should be of no concern. Here is a procedure from a school texbook on inorganic chemistry, outlining a simple procedure to obtain some nitric acid by oxidation of ammonia.

Burning ammonia directly is not a very good option: it requires pure O2 (since it won't burn in air) and it generates only nitrogen (as explained in the excerpt I provided). Obtaining HNO3 requires a catalyst, which is a metal oxide, and the yield depends on the catalyst used. The optimum conditions are used in industry, where the well known platinum-rhodium catalysts act under elevated pressure, but catalytic action does take place under normal conditions, albeit with very reduced efficiency. As outlined in the excerpt, other metal oxides can be used, such as those of iron and chromium. I'd like to add here that a "mad scientist" ought to obtain some platinum, for it is very useful (I believe I don't have to explain its many uses). Yes, it is expensive, but You don't need much of it, and some can be obtained in fuel cell kits and other places (do some search on the Net).

Of course, nitrogen can be reacted directly with oxygen, but only at extremely high temperatures -- typically, the electric arc process develops over 4000 deg. Celsius. Doing this in an improvised lab is possible, but with extremely small yields. So, if this is done only for demo purposes, then a neon-sign transformer can be used with *extreme caution* (this thing can kill You instantly) to develop a continuous arc in, say, an Erlenmeyer flask with some water in the bottom. If the arc is made to rotate to exchange the air, and occasionally the device is turned off and the capped flask vigorously shaken to dissolve nitrogen oxide in water, after some time the pH drops so the minute amounts of acid can be detected with a suitable indicator. Otherwise, I believe trying to produce some quantitative yield of nitric acid in this way in an improvised lab is a complete waste of time. Perhaps even nitrogen-fixing bacteria can produce more :)

Ah, yes. Where to obtain ammonia? Inexpensive urea-based fertilizers can be heated to release lots of NH3. There should be some fertilizers on the market that are pure urea pellets. Upon heating in a flask with a stopper, it melts and starts giving off NH3. Of course, NH3 can be pushed out chemically, but why waste chemicals?

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[*] posted on 7-1-2004 at 18:51
thanks


Quote:
Originally posted by overseer
Ah, yes. Where to obtain ammonia? Inexpensive urea-based fertilizers can be heated to release lots of NH3. There should be some fertilizers on the market that are pure urea pellets. Upon heating in a flask with a stopper, it melts and starts giving off NH3. Of course, NH3 can be pushed out chemically, but why waste chemicals?

I didnt know that about urea, but I have a 10 lb bag that I got for $5 so ill give that a try anyhow...that is good to know for other uses too so thanks

[Edited on 8-1-2004 by moo409]
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[*] posted on 7-1-2004 at 20:10


Acid Test: Yech! your crystals could have been several things. Acetamide springs to mind. It appears that your enthusiasm greatly outstrips your knowledge. Your names and formulas for hypothetical products sound similar to chemical names, but don't make sense. For example, "chloral nitrate", as written, is niether an aldehyde (-CHO) nor a nitrate (-NO2). For God's (or at least your own) sake, please don't ingest anything you make unless you know its structure and purity. Even then, think twice.
AngelEyes: I believe the industrial route is by burning ammonia. Check the 'net for details. Not easy to do at home.

Edit: AT: You didn't report any chloroform separating out, which would happen before the acetamide did, so your crystals are probably something else. Perhaps acetone oxime, though that, too, is quite soluble.

[Edited on 8-1-2004 by Geomancer]
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[*] posted on 8-1-2004 at 02:18


Yes, the industrial method involves ammonia, catalysts, high pressure etc. Definitely not worth it, and probably not even possible, at home. If I need a nitrate I just go to the local DIY (hardware, for any Americans) store and get some good old J Arthur Bowers Nitrate of Soda! Dirt cheap and pure ('ish). ;)
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[*] posted on 21-1-2004 at 21:31


>Of course, nitrogen can be reacted directly
>with oxygen, but only at extremely high
>temperatures -- typically, the electric arc
>process develops over 4000 deg. Celsius.
>Doing this in an improvised lab is possible,
>but with extremely small yields. So, if this is
>done only for demo purposes, then a
>neon-sign transformer can be used with
>*extreme caution* (this thing can kill You
>instantly) to develop a continuous arc in,
>say, an Erlenmeyer flask with some water
>in the bottom. If the arc is made to rotate
>to exchange the air, and occasionally the >device is turned off and the capped flask
>vigorously shaken to dissolve nitrogen
>oxide in water, after some time the pH
>drops so the minute amounts of acid can
>be detected with a suitable indicator.
>Otherwise, I believe trying to produce
>some quantitative yield of nitric acid in this
>way in an improvised lab is a complete
>waste of time. Perhaps even
>nitrogen-fixing bacteria can produce more

Not so! I'm currently building an NST based
HNO3-generator which, according to
experimentation, actually will be quite
efficient. Think "air pumped through arc in
reactor and bubbled through a series of
flasks containing water". The erlenmeyer
shaker method you described actually
yielded HNO3 string enough to scorch my
tongue after only about 10min with the NST.

The secret lies in the power of the NST. Mine gives about 550W in the output. How big is yours? =)




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[*] posted on 22-1-2004 at 01:23


What are you expecting axe, 25 to 30 grams an hour at 50-60% concentration output?

Magnetic limiting is something of a bonus using neons.

Look up how nasty NO2 is if you havnt allready. The arc process has been discussed to death here and on rogue, but practical results are always useful.
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[*] posted on 22-1-2004 at 08:33


> The secret lies in the power of the NST.
> Mine gives about 550W in the output.
> How big is yours? =)

Mine is 200 W. The yield can be increased by a rotating spark, but it's still insignificant compared to amounts obtainable from fertilizers at the same price.
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[*] posted on 22-1-2004 at 15:42


I have a circuit using an automobile ignition coil that is capable of producing a spark of nearly 1 inch continuously. One time I put a container over it and left it running for about 10 minutes. I expected to container to fill with a brown gas. But I couldn't really tell if it had or not. When I removed the container I could smell something chemical, but I don't think I saw any brown gas. If that's any indication of the efficiency of the process, I don't think the yield is very good at all. Certainly I had a high enough voltage (20,000+ volts given the length of the spark).

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[*] posted on 22-1-2004 at 20:13
Current


Hodges, you are not using enough current.
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[*] posted on 5-2-2004 at 17:50
Breakthrough


Well, my Birkeland-Eyde reactor is almost finished. It uses 2 8mm thick electrodes in a V shape to form a spark gap, and as a power source I use a 550W, 9000V NST.

Air is pumped into the reactor, and leaves the reactor going through 2 bubblers in series.

I only have one construction left to solve: I need an air pump capable of delivering something like 0.5 litres of air / second into the reactor, otherwise the electrodes get so hot that they melt the melt glue that's sealing them through holes I drilled through the glass vessel. The pressure is basically non-important, I tested it with an aquarium pump and it worked apart from the cooling problem.

Ideas, anyone?

Please don't say "aquarium pump", the largest models only give something like 200 liters/hour. Also please don't say "air compressor", the pump needs to be quiet.

*singing* "La la la la la, only one small problem to solve, then": Hasta la vista, government regulations concerning individuals buying nitric acid.




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[*] posted on 5-2-2004 at 19:16


How about a hair dryer (with the heating element unused or disconnected)? Or is that too loud?



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[*] posted on 5-2-2004 at 23:02


Too un-powerful. It has to be capable of pumping air through bubblers with a depth sum of 40cm.



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[*] posted on 5-2-2004 at 23:33


Vacuum cleaner run with the hose attached to the air output instead of intake?



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[*] posted on 6-2-2004 at 00:55


Polverone: That's a very constructive idea, but the noise would be too much (I don't live in a house --- my neighbours would complain loudly, and I would be evicted --- my device is supposed to run 24/7 =)

I'm going to contact a firm that deals in air pumps for fish growing tanks. They might have something (I dare hardly think of the cost....=)

[Edited on 2004-2-6 by axehandle]

Found a monster capable of 600 litres/hour. Cost: about $30. I should be able to connect 2 or 3 of those in parallell. Still leaves the problem of cooling the electrodes though.... although I have an idea involving an aluminum profile with a star shaped intersection, an 8mm drill, some thermal paste and 4 80x80 computer fans.

My friends don't call me McGyver for nothing =)


[Edited on 2004-2-6 by axehandle]




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