quicksilver
International Hazard
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Location: Inches from the keyboard....
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FOR SALE
Many of us have items that we would like to sell. I had PM'ed moderator in regards to starting a thread in this regard. I would like to hear opinions
of others and if this thing could work.
I know that many people are "paranoid" or suspicious about their name or whatever, but realistically everyone is public now who uses the internet
generally; no matter what they may feel about not using their full name or whatever.
Many people. myself included have a lot of stuff I'd like to sell and eBay is either too much trouble or they have some bizarre rule about an item
What are your feelings, observations or suggestions?
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IrC
International Hazard
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I think it is a good idea within restrictions. Such as not allowing list chems, or chems which cannot be sent under USPS PUB 52. Even though some
chems are OK in some countries like red P in Germany they are list here in the US. I envision the site owners or admin having to relive the KNO3 story
where Arizona hauls them off under conspiracy charges or some such thing. Likewise with chems such as Li being mailed. Some while back I remember a
news story where a postal delivery vehicle caught fire IIRC in Utah. Reading the story brought the thought to mind some ebay seller mailed Li with a
leaky bottle allowing the Li to see air on a hot day. Up goes the mail and no doubt the feds were investigating that one. Of course it could have been
a Palm Pilot with a squashed battery who knows. Not a general paranoia post I am making, rather there could be liabilities which could involve the
site in some sort of "aiding" or "conspiracy" for list items or "liability" for say mail going up in smoke. Not sure if these concerns would apply but
it seems common sense. If a German sells red P to an American for example would not the same extradition apply to all involved in such a sale in the
same way Arizona was able to extradite citizens of England to the US. You never know but it sure seems possible.
Outside of that for most other chems I think that is a great idea and should include scientific equipment of various kinds. I have a ton of crap I
really will never use and the $ would buy things I could use now as my interests or types of experiments change. Maybe they could do so and post a
list of prohibited items. Nothing like the pure crap draconian and stupid fleabay of course but reasonable for protection of the site or persons in
general. Or am I outside the realm of reason.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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densest
Hazard to Others
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A reasonable, legal way of getting surplus materials or equipment "to a good home" would really be a good thing. I'm sure many of us have material
which is legal to buy, legal to have, legal to sell, legal to ship (given appropriate packing, labeling, etc.) but are unable to advertise or
otherwise find someone who would have a use for it & (gasp) even pay something for it.
The USA has changed a lot. A couple of decades ago, saying "I have a still" was risking a visit of either Carrie Nation reincarnated or the Tax Man
with guns & axes, while fireworks were frowned upon but ignored as long as you didn't piss off the neighbors. Nowadays, just say "chemicals" and
Homeland Security and the DEA arrive in helicopters, while amateur whiskey and rum are ignored as long as one doesn't piss off the neighbors or the
local liquor monopoly. And gangs have taken over large areas of public land to grow cannabis.
Yes, moderators & administrators, please consider what would be needed to set up a well-regulated exchange for members!
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quicksilver
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From what I had briefly discussed the mods don't want to do extra duty; therefore this discussion.
The suggestions thus far are very workable. (no list 1 stuff, etc). Basically this would be more of a person to person thing that moves away from
MadScience taking such an active role that responsibility rests there. Responsibility should rest on the individuals. An agreement of two or more
people to a simple exchange & the simpler, the better.
If you know the laws in your community, the other party knows the law in their community, problems lessen considerably. There is MANY gray areas.
Texas has glassware laws but yet chemical glassware sold as antiques has been openly sold in shops even as recently as today. Many List chemicals are
sold as threshold levels; as "other than" - commercial products, like potassium permanganate to treat water. Understanding the law means knowing that
threshold levels exist on some products. Black Powder has a 25/50lb sale storage limit: does that mean that several sales of BP violate the law? Case
law shows it does not (there is a lot to this issue). Anhydrous ammonia is very tightly regulated but anyone can created an ammonia generator, etc.
Basically IF we want a "for sale" thread or section (if it gets big) we have the responsibility of doing all the grunt work and presenting it for
approval.
We also do NOT have to focus on chemicals what so ever! High voltage items and instruments, scales and measurement devices, and a host of items one
man thinks of as junk is anther man's treasure. We may begin small.
We may also have a "black list". Since MadScience personnel really want no part of things like arbitration - if you get burned, the recourse you have
is to publicly explain the problem & let the public make the decision if that person, address, PO BOX, is to ever to be trusted again. One strike;
your out..... Because we have little recourse except to "shun" the transgressor....(I wish I could do that with some on eBay).
One of the biggest areas that people should tread carefully is with things that look to an observer like "cooking". And that is like pornography, it's
very tough to define but you know it when you see it. My suggestion in this regard is that IF you do break the law; have some decency and don't do it
with innocent folks here. What's more, on the other side, if you feel like the guy "has to have that three necked flask overnight" - be upfront about
it . No one should play policeman, yet people must realize they have a responsibility to be temperate.
The anonymity issue could be maintained. But realistically anyone who honestly thinks that they are anonymous because they call themselves
"quicksilver" or whatever are fooling themselves. A quick IP address check (even using a proxy) would reveal the state and city in most instances. The
government would know the last time you went to the dentist!
An example of this would be addressing the package or letter to: Uncle Donald
1234 Wild Ass Rd
O'Odoum Nation Reservation, Arizona 85700
USA Postal Rural Route (if you are from outside the US)
-You will never be able to keep an address more than confidential between a few people because most PO Box stores have now demanded ID.
So KEEP it honest and aboveboard. Discussions and sodium metal are all fine legal things. Just because some fellow in the world knows your address -
really means nothing. The Government knows just a wee bit more already.
These are ONLY suggestions and food for thought: only the mods make the rules.
[Edited on 4-3-2010 by quicksilver]
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
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I think it's a great idea. Does it have to be here on SM? I might be willing to invest in a server (I'll pay for a year) if others can help with the
development. I have very little time nowadays.
This is all assuming we have a good and specific plan of action.
I will pay attention to this thread to stay updated.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 7977
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
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Mood: interested
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I also like the idea, but don't underestimate the legal issues which such a site can introduce. What if person A buys a chemical or a high voltage
device from person B and person A has a nasty accident with it and sues person B or even worse, the site owner? All kinds of issues can be raised,
ranging from bad packaging, missing MSDS-es, bad manuals etc. etc. The responsibility for that kind of things must be taken away from the
intermediate/contacting site in such a way that no one can ever cause trouble for the site owner.
What about the legal status of the site itself? Is such a thing allowed? Given the current social climate for chemistry and other 'dangerous' home
science hobbies I can imagine that many governments will keep a very close eye on such a site and many Internet/hosting providers might even pull the
plug for such a site. The site must have a clear legal status.
Also keep in mind that most people over here are not professional chemical sellers. Shipping chemicals in a correct and safe way is a science on its
own in the current safety-freak society. Who can guarantee that if I buy e.g. sodium metal from a private person that it is packaged in a safe way. I
once have done so, buying sodium metal from a German eBay seller. This person put the sodium in a flimsy plastic container (an empty and cleaned
plastic butter/margarine container), without any oil on it, just the dry sodium  The sodium did arrive without problems (albeit with a fairly thick hydroxide crust), but what if it started smouldering, or even catched fire? From
a professional seller you can expect better. Again, is the site responsible if it becomes clear that the faulty transaction was made possible through
the use of the site?
[Edited on 10-3-10 by woelen]
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javagamer
Harmless
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I'd imagine for something like this to work there would have to be a large tutorials section and possibly forum on the site teaching people about how
to properly package and send these things. However, with something like that in place I think it's feasible that people could learn to do things
properly. A user ranking system would also likely be an important component to let people know how good of a seller someone is.
I'd be willing to put some time towards developing such a site, but my free time is highly variable so I couldn't commit to much.
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woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 7977
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
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Mood: interested
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One more thing: this site should be totally disconnected from sciencemadness.org. To my opinion the legal status and continuity of sciencemadness.org
may in no way be affected by this seller/buyer site. Of course a simple link could be provided, but no technical couplings like accounts which work on
one site also work on the other site or sharing the same hosting (e.g. having a subdirectory under the sciencemadness.org domain, such as
sciencemadness.org/exchange).
[Edited on 10-3-10 by woelen]
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chemrox
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I agree with Woelen. If someone wants to announce he has some apparatus or reagents to sell he should simply state that and then arrange to exchange
email addresses through a u2u. That should be the end of the forum exchange on it. Let's keep the site as free from outside interest as possible so
that the occasional lapse of wisdom can be lost in the greater expanse of general chemical discussions.
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
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1281371269
Hazard to Others
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Registered: 15-5-2009
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People already often post items that they wish to sell. Having a thread particularly for this would be no great step toward anything. It would make
the site more organised, and encourage listing of smaller or single items that one would not normally bother to start up a thread to get rid of. This
could be very beneficial for getting a single chemical in a small quantity, or inexpensive piece of equipment like an adaptor - as has been said, junk
to one, crucial to another. A sales thread would also make proposing 'swapsies' easier.
I doubt any issues would arise that people on this site have not had to deal with before.
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a_bab
Hazard to Others
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Registered: 15-9-2002
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Mood: Angry !!!!!111111...2?!
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Having such a section would be kind of taboo, as everybody thought about it, but the general consensus was a "no no", although many here put ads here
an there.
As everybody said, eventually there WILL be problems. And even worse nowadays, as we have Interpol and such. Basically one such agency can find all
the addresses and messages exchanged between the members very easily, with a simple request to the hosting provider and they may start legal actions
against all the members if the things become too hot.
There is no such thing as a "chem exchange/sale site for amateur chemists" on the net yet, minus the auction sites such as ebay, which are heavily
regulated and "diluted" by the other items. That would represent the honeypot for all the amateur chemists in the world, and it would also make the
ultimate trap. Don't get me wrong, but with all of these cooks around it's a matter of time till some european dumbhead will send RP to an american
dopeass. That's all it takes to draw attention (although I personally think that the attention is already focussed).
It would be an indeal thing in an ideal world, but i'd personally never sell anything dangerous/illegal to anyone. Better safe then sorry. This hobby
it's already as it is, and it would be a pitty to end up causing troubles to the relatives for some stinky chems.
In a wild dream of mine I've been in a store, I mean a physical, real store, with "used chemistry equipment" where one can spend hours between the
shelves loaded with old dusty chems bottles at ridiculous prices. If asked, the owner would provide you with old, crumbly lists barely covering 75% of
the treasure. Among these chems, there will be dusty jars with WP sticks under water, chucks of dirty sodium in even larger jars "at sale" because of
the oxidation, in a corner some 10 kg rusty kegs where the text "potassium ingots" and "sodium rods" can be barely read, tens of bottles of
perchloric acid lined up in the acid department, dirty glassware of all kinds, entire crates of it, where you can dig up, with an tolerant smile from
the owner if you chip/crack something during the digging frenzy. Lots of "expired chems" (actually just caked up), some in 50 kilos bags amounts. Few
lanthanides in all forms, some being almost 100 years old. There would be even some rare metals, such as platinum salts in small vials, and maybe a
few 500 g silver nitrate recipients, hidden deeply among the rest of the stuff as they are treasures. The price for these would be "for item", and a
ridiculous one. There would be a "halogens" corner, with the beloved stench floating above, with lots of jugs of bromine and iodine bottles of all
sizes, iodine being in all forms, from prills to tri-sublimated huge crystals and in a corner some rusty but otherwise in good condition chlorine
lecture bottles. If dug hard, maybe even one or two fluorine small bottles with all the gear available. These would be for free as "they are dangerous
to keep". The organics would be even better, with the unique smell, and amber leaky bottles of hundreds of different organics. But then I woke up.
Well, in this world such a store will never exist but in our dreams.
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
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Location: USA
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Let me compliment you on your vivid imagination. 
This got me thinking if indeed, there could be such a place in a world that is becoming "flatter" everyday. The best that I could come up with would
likely be an isolated country like Burma or Albania, or even Tibet. Or perhaps an ex-member of the former Soviet Union, like Latvia. Some place
isolated that does not give a shit about what the rest of the world thinks or wants. Pitcairn Island? 
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
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| Quote: | | These would be for free as "they are dangerous to keep" |
a_bab, you have described the situation that existed
in a lot of places about 1960. Not in stores, but in the store rooms of lots of labs and commercial establishments. In a few cases, I was lucky
enough to be there when this statement was made. One was a very old pharmacy which had several floor-to-ceiling shelves of chemicals. In high school
I would browse this gold mine and buy an ounce or two of something. Finally the pharmacists realized that I was their only customer for these relics
of a bygone day, and resolved to clean house. They finally realized that it would not be easy or cheap to dispose of this stuff and told me to take
anything I wanted, for free. I still have a lot of the chemicals I carried out of there in a wheelbarrow. Luckily there was no fluorine, or I would
probably have taken it too.
Actually you have described the chemical shop which Oliver Sacks visited as a boy and he tells of it in his memoir "Uncle Tungsten". The
shop was outside London in the 1940's. It's a book worth reading, and used copies are available cheap.
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