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Author: Subject: Notre Dame Smoke
Morgan
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[*] posted on 19-4-2019 at 07:47


Some others interested in the color.
https://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=99674.0
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S.C. Wack
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[*] posted on 19-4-2019 at 14:49


The govt. would probably like everyone to forget about the lead and any contaminated debris. Do the authorities say soil and blood testing is unnecessary at the site, Paris, and wherever the wind was blowing, or not even that?



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[*] posted on 20-4-2019 at 04:48


About the only thing the colour tells you is that it's not red lead.
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Morgan
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[*] posted on 20-4-2019 at 08:33


Some perspectives of the lead roof.

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/04/how-much-envi...
https://www.france-voyage.com/visuals/photos/cathedrale-notr...
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S.C. Wack
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[*] posted on 20-4-2019 at 19:19


Needless? to say, in the USA lead smelting and battery recycling has resulted in vast areas targeted for topsoil removal, contrary to the motherjones "the release of lead into the atmosphere is a fairly minor issue".



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Morgan
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[*] posted on 20-4-2019 at 21:27


Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  
Needless? to say, in the USA lead smelting and battery recycling has resulted in vast areas targeted for topsoil removal, contrary to the motherjones "the release of lead into the atmosphere is a fairly minor issue".


The article did seem a bit irreverent/dismissive as to the possibilities of lead dispersal via fire, not even entertaining scenarios.

I found this comment searching for examples of yellow smoke occurrences. But I'm still searching for more information or definitive happenings.. Maybe burn some lead sheeting in a fire or design a simple experiment to make yellow smoke from hot lead?

"Probably is Lead and Zinc, we get high lead heats and it fills the meltshop with a thick yellow cloud. Time to grab the respirators! Don't breathe yellow smoke and don't eat yellow snow. :lol:"
http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/archive/index.php/t-2916.html
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[*] posted on 21-4-2019 at 07:30


Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
About the only thing the colour tells you is that it's not red lead.


notre dame smoke.jpg - 34kB




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Morgan
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[*] posted on 23-4-2019 at 18:19


Lead metal in a fire ...
Fire Fighting:
Do not use direct water streams on fires where molten metal is present, due to the risk of a steam explosion that could potentially eject molten metal uncontrollably. Use a fine water mist on the front-running edge of the spill and on the top of the molten metal to cool and solidify it. If possible, move solid material from fire area or cool material exposed to flame to prevent melting of the metal ingots. Highly toxic lead oxide fumes may evolve in fires. Fire fighters must be fully trained and wear full protective clothing including an approved, self-contained breathing apparatus which supplies a positive air pressure within a full face-piece mask.
(From a lead metal safety date sheet PDF Teck Resources)

"PbO may be prepared by heating lead metal in air at approximately 600 °C."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_oxide

"People may be occupationally exposed to lead(II) oxide dust during its production and use as well as from smelting, refining, and other operations in which metallic lead is heated in the presence of air such as welding and soldering. The greatest potential for high-level occupational exposure is in lead smelting and refining and the most hazardous operations are those in which the metal is brought to high temperatures resulting in vaporization and subsequently fumes containing small, respirable particles(1)."
[(1) USEPA; Air Quality Criteria for Lead EPA 600/8-83-028aF (1986)] **PEER REVIEWED**

[Edited on 24-4-2019 by Morgan]
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[*] posted on 25-4-2019 at 20:05


Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  
Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
About the only thing the colour tells you is that it's not red lead.




Does (red) lead actually put out red smoke? I'm not convinced of that. The whole sky is red in that shot.

That looks like artistic license.


[Edited on 26-4-2019 by Mr. Rogers]
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[*] posted on 26-4-2019 at 04:09


Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers  


That looks like artistic license.


[Edited on 26-4-2019 by Mr. Rogers]


Much simpler: looking west at the end of the day
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[*] posted on 27-4-2019 at 03:22


You don't need to be a christian to appreciate the tragedy of the damage to this structure (opinion)!! Regarding the smoke colour: I've burnt wood in confined chimney scenarios and once hot and oxygen supply is cut off, the destructive distillation of the wood emits a beige coloured fume similar to the yellow colouration from the church. Maybe parts of the roof were hot enough to undergo destructive distillation without combustion releasing the yellow smoke?
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[*] posted on 27-4-2019 at 08:26


"Onlookers suggested the white smoke was wood burning, while yellow smoke came from melting lead."
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/notre-dame-cath...

"The fire sent large amounts of lead into the air because hundreds of tons of the metal were used in Notre Dame’s frame, as well as the church spire that burned and collapsed."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/lead-from-notre-...

"Paris police have advised residents and shopkeepers around Notre Dame to remove any surface dust they see with wet wipes."
https://globalnews.ca/news/5211337/notre-dame-cathedral-lead...

A "quirky" video but a little after the 8 minute 30 second mark there's a tidbit on the lead roofing thickness and a smoke photo and if you ever wanted to climb Notre Dame around the 12 minute mark, some risk taking.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=K0jNoCF8Wd0

[Edited on 27-4-2019 by Morgan]
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S.C. Wack
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[*] posted on 27-4-2019 at 11:08


How much of all that money pledged will go towards lead testing and cleanup?



notre_dame_014.jpg - 262kB




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[*] posted on 7-5-2019 at 15:23


Huh only found this thread now. I've been sure since the moment I first saw that yellow smoke that it's lead oxide. I have seen lead burn before, it produces exactly this kind of yellow smoke.

Compare with the color of litharge, PbO:


[Edited on 7-5-2019 by stamasd]
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Morgan
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[*] posted on 7-5-2019 at 17:34


Quote: Originally posted by stamasd  
Huh only found this thread now. I've been sure since the moment I first saw that yellow smoke that it's lead oxide. I have seen lead burn before, it produces exactly this kind of yellow smoke.

Compare with the color of litharge, PbO:


[Edited on 7-5-2019 by stamasd]


Blessedly, more support in the file of Notre Dame Smoke being caused by burning lead. Thanks stamasd.
Previously I had suggested someone try burning lead to show yellow smoke can form from burning lead.
If I may ask, under what circumstances did you see lead vaporize into a yellow smoke?
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[*] posted on 7-5-2019 at 18:53


I was young and stupid and mixed pyrotechnics with heavy metals. That was about 30 years ago. But I remember the yellow smoke like it was yesterday.
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[*] posted on 7-5-2019 at 22:18


Why didn't I think of sharing this earlier? Too busy with my silly rebuttal to roguerose's sarcastic political comment and its unproven accusations of crimes, I guess. How did these hooligans get so much lead oxide, anyhow?
Quote: Originally posted by stamasd  
I was young and stupid and mixed pyrotechnics with heavy metals. That was about 30 years ago. But I remember the yellow smoke like it was yesterday.

I can't see the color of the smoke here-because it's inside a dimly lit... college laboratory? Young and stupid's one thing. But these guys should know better, dust mask or otherwise.

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[*] posted on 8-5-2019 at 02:11


Well the above seems to be a thermite explosion, Al and lead oxide (sold in many parts of the world as pigment especially for anti-corrosive paints). I've done that too. But the experience I was talling about was with actual metallic lead burning. It happens when you put a composition that burns very hot (based on magnesium) inside a lead container. :)

[Edited on 8-5-2019 by stamasd]
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[*] posted on 19-7-2019 at 07:00


Quote: Originally posted by stamasd  
But the experience I was talling about was with actual metallic lead burning. It happens when you put a composition that burns very hot (based on magnesium) inside a lead container. :)

[Edited on 8-5-2019 by stamasd]


Not exactly the experiment you mention but I have that one planned too.
Yesterday I took out the blowtorch and some lead.

First, I heated the lead with a propane rich flame for 1 minute in a steel mold.
This was inconclusive as after the experiment I had two more grams (analytical scale, mg precision).
There was some soot on the lead because of the flame and some paint chipped from the mold.

Then I took the same lead and heated it with an oxygen rich flame. I distinctly saw some carbon burn but saw no smoke of any kind.
Heat was applied for 2mn30 seconds mostly the tip of the cone.

Some lead certainly boiled off, the soot turned to CO2 and I suppose that the paint burned aswell.
Maybe a few miligrams stayed in the mold aswell.

Anyway, the loss was minimal though it certainly adds up when you are melting tons of the stuff.

1-2.jpg - 441kB




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[*] posted on 19-7-2019 at 15:18


It dawned on me while washing dishes today thinking about how to burn lead, recalling one day when bored, having made pyrophoric iron sealed in a test tube with a waxed cork and the next day seeing it spontaneously catch fire when cold and uncorked and sprinkled in the air - the idea of lead oxalate came to mind. So then I searched the net to read up on lead oxalate.
If you blow this photo up it looks like some yellow smoke using a tartrate to make pyrophoric lead.
http://m-experiments.com/Ekx/material/Pirofornost/Piro%20Pb/...
http://m-experiments.com/Pyrophoric%20Lead.html

pyrophoric lead demo
https://youtube.com/watch?v=jJAe6dhkmn0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_oxalate

'You don't want to make a lot of lead."
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ByDY1cv5-UA


[Edited on 20-7-2019 by Morgan]
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[*] posted on 13-8-2019 at 11:49


"As the smoke’s yellow tinge suggested, lead was also vaporized, creating what Robin Des Bois called a “toxic fallout” of lead dust that was deposited downwind."
https://www.wired.com/story/the-notre-dame-fire-spread-toxic...

"Due to Fear Over Lead Poisoning, Notre Dame Cathedral’s Restoration Is Delayed – Paris authorities are rushing to decontaminate the area surrounding Notre Dame so that work on the fire-ravaged cathedral can resume. The restoration, which was halted in mid-July, was due to restart this week, but has now been pushed back to August 19. After weeks of denial, officials admitted that high levels of lead particles had been found in the area. The contamination could pose a risk to workers as well as children and pregnant women. Now, authorities have stepped up a deep clean of nearby schools and of the square in front of the cathedral. But they have rejected calls to cover the entire cathedral with protective cladding to contain the particles, arguing that the job would be too costly and complex. (AFP)"
https://news.artnet.com/art-world/art-industry-news-august-1...

[Edited on 13-8-2019 by Morgan]
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