Mark Van Adium
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Where can I go with my degree?
Background: I am in the 2nd year of my chemistry degree at a top 10 UK university. I am currently applying for a 12 month placement to start at the
end of this year.
Yesterday I realised that I actually have very little idea of what I want to do with my chemistry degree. I thought I was all planned out, wanting to
go into industry, work 9-5 and work my way up, but someone commented on my academic decisions recently, and it made me realise that I don't really
know if I even want to go into industry any more.
The only things I really know for sure is that I enjoy organic chemistry, and have somewhat missed the boat on pharmacology.
I would like to go into an advisory position where I can educate people (not a teacher), or do something to do with recreational drugs (so either
research or activism).
My course is very much structured to take me into industry, but I just don't know where I would fit in there?
Any suggestions?
P.S. Being a teacher is my backup, I enjoy teaching anyone but I don't want to have the lack of free time or incredible workloads.
Please don't dismiss my potential because of my interest in drugs, it is a legitimate (if under-researched) area of chemistry where I believe I could
do a lot of good. Don't mistake it for me wanting a job where I am a sampler or something else stupidly stereotypical of drug users.
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blogfast25
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Hmmm…
It really boils down to:
1. Industry: a broad panoply of jobs from R&D to production control to environmental department to marketing to sales and technical assistance.
2. Teaching: secondary or higher education
3. Fundamental research: Uni or private industry
4. Start your own business: go to Bank of Dad (preferably) and start a small business in chemistry; analytical lab, chemical distributorship, small
scale production of high added value fine chemicals, etc.
Vague but then your question wasn’t highly precise either… My own experience is that jobs tend to find you, not the other way around…
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kmno4
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Where can I go with my degree ?
- in this context = What shall I do with myself ?
It depends on you, your family situation, your economic conditions.... It always surprises me when people ask such questions on chemical forums.
Just search around and you will find many suggestions and ideas.
Shall we decide for you ? I think we shall not.
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DDTea
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First thing: you like organic chemistry. You're going to have to be a hell of a lot more specific than that when you're defining your goals! At the
very least, you need at least another adjective on the label "organic chemistry" and have a vague idea of what industry or what kinds of problems you
enjoy. Ask yourself: what do you *hate* doing? Was there any particular course that you didn't enjoy? Don't specialize in it (although truthfully,
you will have to use your background in everything you've studied to be successful). What topics in Organic Chemistry did you enjoy? Mechanistic
studies? Syntheses? O. Chem in the context of the environment? Its effects on biological molecules? Maybe, molecular electronics?
At least in the US, pre-2008 everyone was looking for a generalist. After all, they could train you. In fact, that's exactly what my inorganic chem
professor told us: "Learn the footwork in everything. Rely on companies to train you on specifics." These days, nobody wants to train you. They
want a specialist who, quite often, knows how to use THEIR equipment and knows THEIR procedures prior to even starting. It's absolutely ridiculous,
but the job market these days isn't just bad, it's cynical. 20 years of education and they'll put you on the day shift, dude.
There are definitely some good openings in industry though. I work in industry, but from my experience, everything is a double-edged sword: the
excellent funding might let you use awesome equipment and you may work with super experienced colleagues, but by the same token, trying to get a
procedure changed is a combination of herding cats and moving a mountain. Definitely, don't ever settle for production. You will NOT be happy. Go
for R&D at one of the big experimental stations or corporate headquarters.
If you're interested in drugs of abuse/illicit drugs (don't call them recreational drugs if you want to be taken seriously), the pharmaceutical
industry might be right for you.
"In the end the proud scientist or philosopher who cannot be bothered to make his thought accessible has no choice but to retire to the heights in
which dwell the Great Misunderstood and the Great Ignored, there to rail in Olympic superiority at the folly of mankind." - Reginald Kapp.
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Mark Van Adium
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I know that some people don't want to help because they don't think they should be spoon feeding me so much. I respect that, but I would ask them not
to post here.
The reason that I haven't been particularly specific is because it turns out I actually know very little about commercial chemistry. My degree is
excellent for teaching me chemistry, but not teaching me about chemistry if that makes sense.
I do not enjoy quantitative chemistry and complex maths. As a result, physical chemistry is something I don't like.
In a basic sense, I'm a man of words and pictures. I find it easy to pick things up when they are explained in text, and I find that my enjoyment of
learning in this way allows me to apply myself much better.
So far I have enjoyed all of the organic chemistry modules I've taken. Even when I find them hard I enjoy the challenge, as opposed to physical where
I tend to shut down a little.
Before my degree I did work experience with astrazeneca, and found it quite dull. I said to myself that it was not something I wanted to do, and
focused my energies on defence science, something which I knew even less about, but I could relate my interests to (pyrotechnics and air cannons). As
I have learnt about drugs of abuse I have become interested in pharmacology much more, but having made decisions to avoid it (all my optional modules
have been physics-based) I think I have shut myself out from this avenue.
I really appreciate your advice though, please keep it coming. This needn't be so much of a "what shall I do with myself thread", I think a "teach me
about commercial chemistry" thread seems to be a little more what I'm looking for.
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blogfast25
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Quote: Originally posted by DDTea  | | At least in the US, pre-2008 everyone was looking for a generalist. After all, they could train you. In fact, that's exactly what my inorganic
chem professor told us: "Learn the footwork in everything. Rely on companies to train you on specifics." These days, nobody wants to train you.
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I doubt if that's true for the UK. I think there's room for generalists AND specialists. Eventually everyone becomes a specialist and thus quite
vulnerable too. Plus excessive specialism dulls the senses, IMHO...
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blogfast25
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Van Adium:
Perhaps something ‘broader’ would suit you? Environmental Science for instance is multi-disciplinary and involves both organic and inorganic
chemistry. Never a dull day…
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Panache
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work experience is always dull and very rarely representative, my advice is that you should not sweat it now, realistically you have no variables to
alter anyway. All chemistry degrees are general, it is after that either through further study/research and/or work that you focus your field of
speciality.
In the eighties and nineties when every grant written was usually for a new instrument as the digital age made so much more possible the departments
of universities and research facilities filled with these things and everyone was expected to use them if they needed them.
It did not take long before it was understood if one also budgeted for an operator to come with $100k++++ instrument things would work out a little
better, hence the age of specialization began and no one runs their own samples any more, thank god for that anyway
[Edited on 27-11-2010 by Panache]
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DJF90
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If you are interested in pharmacology, I'm sure that it is possible for you to do a postgraduate master's degree in this field, once you've finished
what you're doing.
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DDTea
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Here's the status of the job market today for a chemist. There are a lot of Ph.D, M.S., and of course B.S. level chemists who are out work right now.
Companies are downsizing their workforces, especially their R&D guys: they're trying to hold onto existing clients and aren't really pursuing new
ideas at the moment. They are, however, doing a lot of marketing (basically, they've shifted funds from R&D to marketing). Some companies (like
mine  ) are finding that they've downsized way too much and that their marketing
has worked particularly well, so there just may be some openings for R&D in the near future.
Now here's the catch: who are they going to choose from when they hire for these new openings? They can afford to be extremely choosey when they pick
from the workforce. Between an M.S. with 3 years experience and a fresh B.S., who will win? The actual work for that job may not have changed in 10
years, and there are actually many roles in industry that can be worked by a guy with only a high school degree; however, employers know that they can
get away with just about any ridiculous demand right now. Total employer's market.
Have you noticed how few full-time openings there are but how many temporary gigs there are? Let me tell you, this is a good time to be a
temp/contract worker! Basically, they're just sampling the workforce: seeing who will work out long-term AND for the right price.
Unfortunately, for the dudes like you and me, that means you may end up in a totally crap position if you aren't careful. I saw an ad on craigslist
that was expecting a B.S. in Chemistry to "calculate molar masses, weigh samples, and prepare solutions." I kid you not. The philosophy has long
been to not think that you are too good for a position. It's wrong. You very well CAN be too good for a position, and to continue on in that role
will suck the life out of you.
Really, this is a tricky job market. In my opinion, a fate worse than death is to work hard for 8 years in school, earn your M.S. in Chemistry or a
related hard science, and forever be stuck working for someone less educated but more experienced (re: he has worked with THAT company and in THAT
role for so long that it's all he knows) than you.
I feel like a lot of companies do not appreciate what exactly a B.S. in Chemistry means these days and the type of coursework that has become
standard.
Anyhow, that's my rant. Environmental Chemistry, by the way, is definitely an exciting field--great combination of physical, organic, inorganic, and
analytical chemistry...often with some time spent in unstructured laboratories (i.e., in the field).
[Edited on 11-27-10 by DDTea]
"In the end the proud scientist or philosopher who cannot be bothered to make his thought accessible has no choice but to retire to the heights in
which dwell the Great Misunderstood and the Great Ignored, there to rail in Olympic superiority at the folly of mankind." - Reginald Kapp.
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zed
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You have to find your own niche.
In my youth, a chemical store-room job at my Alma Mater, attracted hundreds of degreed applicants. And, it wasn't a very good job.
The dearth of well paying jobs in the field, was a turn off.
Plenty of potential danger, poor working conditions, poor compensation, lots of competition......And, most jobs were in areas that you wouldn't want
to live in.
Things haven't changed too much.
Still, if you love the game, and you can bag the right job; it's golden.
Like teaching? A great teacher is a treasure. Eventually, you get a good salary, you can't be fired, and you get great benefits. It's a real
career.
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Mark Van Adium
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Thanks again for all your suggestions, they have been really useful to me and I really appreciate them.
Environmental science is something I hadn't given much thought to, but thinking about it, it's something that interests me, so I'll look into it.
My course features a 12 month industry placement, and is a masters, I hope that this work experience will give me that much more over normal BSc and
MChem students to make me employable.
I'll keep looking for placements in the meantime, and hopefully when I finish my degree, a job I enjoy will find me.
I'd like to run my own company, but the bank of dad doesn't have any such available funds right now, maybe when I have some more savings in the
distant future I can invest.
Something else I thought of (fantastical daydream) would be a tv presenter doing something like brainiac or bang goes the theory. It combines teaching
with free-range, and I know I'd love it, but I'm also acutely aware that there are about 20 jobs in it in the country, so I'll keep dreaming!
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Mark Van Adium | My course features a 12 month industry placement, and is a masters, I hope that this work experience will give me that much more over normal BSc and
MChem students to make me employable.
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Consider yourself lucky. I didn't get my degree in the UK but AFAIK such work placements didn't exist back in my day. At best you wrote an 'industry
related thesis'...
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Panache
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after your degree ditch the career path you've set out on and be a fly in fly out miner digging up iron ore in the north west of australia, you'll get
way more money than any professional in a city who's not decent mm upwards and when you're old you can tell your grandkids that you spent your life
digging up red dirt and selling it to china and india, oh and drinking.
there's my rant
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DDTea
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| Quote: Originally posted by Panache | after your degree ditch the career path you've set out on and be a fly in fly out miner digging up iron ore in the north west of australia, you'll get
way more money than any professional in a city who's not decent mm upwards and when you're old you can tell your grandkids that you spent your life
digging up red dirt and selling it to china and india, oh and drinking.
there's my rant |
Or you can work for a petroleum company on a rig in some God-forsaken patch of tundra. I hear for a B.S., the salary can be as high as $80 000 + 6
months vacation each year. I was considering it a few years ago until my Russian colleague at my former job warned me, "Don't go. You'll hate the
cold. It will get to you."
EDIT: I can't believe that I didn't think of this sooner. Mark: if you like organic chemistry and you're interested in topics like substance abuse,
Medicinal Chemistry or Natural Product Chemistry might be right up your alley: http://tinyurl.com/2uesy4k (this link is to the ACS career description page for medicinal chemistry).
[Edited on 11-29-10 by DDTea]
"In the end the proud scientist or philosopher who cannot be bothered to make his thought accessible has no choice but to retire to the heights in
which dwell the Great Misunderstood and the Great Ignored, there to rail in Olympic superiority at the folly of mankind." - Reginald Kapp.
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Fleaker
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| Quote: Originally posted by DDTea | | Quote: Originally posted by Panache | after your degree ditch the career path you've set out on and be a fly in fly out miner digging up iron ore in the north west of australia, you'll get
way more money than any professional in a city who's not decent mm upwards and when you're old you can tell your grandkids that you spent your life
digging up red dirt and selling it to china and india, oh and drinking.
there's my rant |
Or you can work for a petroleum company on a rig in some God-forsaken patch of tundra. I hear for a B.S., the salary can be as high as $80 000 + 6
months vacation each year. I was considering it a few years ago until my Russian colleague at my former job warned me, "Don't go. You'll hate the
cold. It will get to you."
EDIT: I can't believe that I didn't think of this sooner. Mark: if you like organic chemistry and you're interested in topics like substance abuse,
Medicinal Chemistry or Natural Product Chemistry might be right up your alley: http://tinyurl.com/2uesy4k (this link is to the ACS career description page for medicinal chemistry).
[Edited on 11-29-10 by DDTea] |
A double BSc in chemistry and geophysics is serious money. I have a good friend who went to a not top not university and double majored in both and
was scooped into a $100,000 job his first year out. He also had a publication and very good grades. Best part, he's on rotation and travels 2 four
month blocks out of the year and gets the other 4 months off!
There are $70,000+ jobs for BS chemists out there, fresh out of school, provided they have the right things on their resume and nail their interview.
I can tell you this much: you will not get any sort of job in R&D on drugs of abuse/misuse without a PhD. Here in the States, no "Dr." before your
name means zero credibility with DEA/NIH/other funding agencies for that type of research.
Neither flask nor beaker.
"Kid, you don't even know just what you don't know. "
--The Dark Lord Sauron
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Saerynide
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I was in your shoes asking myself the very same question (what to do with my life) 2 years ago.
I loved science and it was my passion, but offered little money. The jobs that did offer good money were the shitty oil rig jobs. And then there
were the jobs that offered decent money but were in the places you couldnt be paid to live in. I considered going into more lucrative industries such
as IT...
As the last semester started, I decided to go after my passion and apply for PhD, wanting to pursue pharmacology / medicinal chemistry I met an awesome professor in a certain southern state during an interview and we
discussed many interesting compounds... I thought "wow.... this would be the most awesome thing to do your PhD in!"
But something always nagged in the back of my mind. I found myself saying "Come on, be serious... Can you really build your life around this? What
jobs are there? You need to eat too... Who would take you seriously, except *that* community? What does it say, when your life revolves around these
compounds? Am I going too far?"
I don't want to discourage you, but these are some things you have to think about. It seems like a dream job, but it might also be just that - a
dream. I mean it is definately possible to do, if you truly are that dedicated, but you may have to give up certain things such as money, and even a
future career (how many companies do you think would be super eager to hire a PhD who did his/her thesis in Amazonian plant extracts vs someone who
studied polymeric drug delivery?)
Not only should you consider respect from industry, but also from academia. How many truly respected scientists are out there in this field? Maybe
like 2 (and one is dead)? How many respected academics were led astray and destroyed their careers? I think its important to remember, it's not the
60s anymore (and neither you nor I were there to even know what it was actually like. I think we only know the romanticized version). Also, remember
the only jobs in this field after you get your PhD are 1) professor, 2) 3 letter D word, or 3) NIH, so if those don't interest you...
If this is truly your passion and these things don't put you off, go for it (just be aware that the US govt is just barely, barely relegalizing
research in these areas.... so funding is a serious issue). Else, you can do what I did - remember that one's professional interests and personal
interests are not mutually exclusive. You don't have to give up one for another.
I chose not to go to grad school. I've decided as much as interested as I was, I cannot really afford to dedicate 5+ years of my life without a
career for just another sheet of paper.
I have since landed a job in industry R&D (pharma, experimental side) and am loving it. The funding is INCREDIBLE. More funding than any
university out there. I have no regrets about ditching grad school.
Jobs are incredibly scarce right now. But you still have 2 years time to worry about that haha.
[Edited on 12/1/2010 by Saerynide]
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satisfy any applicable law, regulation or legal process"
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Contrabasso
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Sooner or later you will find the need to earn a house and car and family and social life. For this you will need a paying job. The work experience
placement that you have is the best interview you will ever get, chose the company carefully then persuade them that you are the person to employ
permanently!
Sadly these days you will need to consider how much you are worth to your employer, You MUST make a profit, if you are not crucial to the company they
can and may get rid of you.
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smuv
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I would say, if you don't plan on getting a PhD, in order to make yourself marketable right out of college, focus on analytical chemistry. Try to get
experience with analytical instruments, and be able to put that on your resume. If you are into organics, GC and LC would be the methods to put on
your resume. So try to get a research position in an analytical lab.
I would say, at this point, as Saerynide said, you need to do a cost benefit analysis of everything. Do you want to have a shot at getting your dream
job but have to spend 9 years in university to achieve it? Also consider the compromise, get a masters. Most schools don't outright offer one, but
you go in as a PhD and essentially 'Master out' out of the program. Masters degree in chemistry doesn't carry much weight, but makes you more likely
to be able to get an R&D type job.
Another thing, since you are interested in drugs, is that usually people go into natural products research to line themselves up for these jobs.
Getting a PhD in natural products research can take a very long time, expect to leave grad school with only a couple (hopefully high impact)
publications. Also, because of the amount of time required to get something worth publishing out of natural products, grad school has the potential
to take a very long time.
"Titanium tetrachloride…You sly temptress." --Walter Bishop
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Mark Van Adium
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Just popping in again to say thank-you, everything everyone has said here has been really helpful, and I appreciate it a lot. I may well
resign substances of abuse to dream jobs and look elsewhere. I was offered a placement researching such things and declined it due to the things
mentioned here and the fact it was unfunded so I couldn't afford it if I was honest with myself.
I have just been offered a placement interview at a synthesis to order company which also does some research, I think it sounds really good, so
fingers crossed as it is my only real offer so far.
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cnidocyte
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Do you do work experience next year? In my course we do. Can't wait.
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RDI
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If you like to travel, doing your PhD is a great way to get around and see the world while really getting into some in-depth research and breaking new
ground. Of course there are many opportunities to travel regardless, but post-doctoral positions allow you to try out areas for a limited time and so
travel from one place to another doing some really interesting research.
Of course all of that depends of funding and where you want to travel to. As usual, money is always the issue.
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TomSwiftJr
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Law school is another possible path with a chemistry degree. A chemistry degree could be an advantage for a patent attorney (one can't even take the
patent bar without a science degree or comparable experience), attorney for the petrochemical or mining companies, criminal defense (issues ranging
from DNA to controlled substance analysis to DUI Intoxilyzer testing) and various other positions where a scientific background can give you a leg up.
The pre-law types also don't seem to exude the same stress and fear as the pre-meds who think their entire future depends on their organic chemistry
grade.
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HHammerHeadD
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well, if I were you, I would one of two things...\
1. apply myself with top grades as well as top schools, and make applications to Sandoz Labratory's
2. move to Pakistan or Afganstan and get involved in making the illicit trade an honorable trade of some serious sterile opiate processing, so that
the people there would not want to come here, and they could make a decent living doing what they do best... and also, so we the people can have
'real' pharmacueticals rather than PigBrain Endorphans as a substitute for PAIN.
whoever comes up with these newfangled Good substitutes, have steered away from anything that does any good..YOu might strike it rich with wealth in
doing so. And Open up Foreign FREETRADE@!!!
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