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UnintentionalChaos
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Classic informal fallacy of Ad Verecundiam (appeal to authority). Just because they might be great scientists who are well respected by many, if not
all the members here for their work, does not make their opinions on other matters in any way more valid than Joe Schmoe.
Have you not also considered that the belief in a god of some sort by these individuals may be largely due to societal pressure? If being atheist is
shunned in the society and they were taught to believe from a young age, do you really think that it will be so easily shrugged off by the individual
with no lingering doubts? How many of these religious scientists were very involved in a specific faith? I suspect that often, they are logically
unable to accept the teachings of any specific faith, but cannot cast off belief in some sort of higher power- whatever it may be- for the above
mentioned reasons.
[Edited on 12-3-10 by UnintentionalChaos]
Department of Redundancy Department - Now with paperwork!
'In organic synthesis, we call decomposition products "crap", however this is not a IUPAC approved nomenclature.' -Nicodem
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Rosco Bodine
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Any Joe Shmoe can also psychoanalyze the differing view on this from either side and come up with some interesting rationales for explaining the
"comfort zone" for the other sides beliefs.
Bacon was Franciscan monk. Maxwell should be on the list of "believers" too IIRC, and certainly DaVinci.
There's an arrogance involved here comparing apples and oranges as a means of divining who owns the orchard or planted the trees, or if all those
neatly arranged rows of DNA just by chance fell into place that way.
Every man at life's race track calculates the odds and lays his money down.
You bet any way you like ......and so will I.
Seeing who is in the winners circle at the end of this life's race
will settle all the debate ........won't it ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgAYePzb9yQ&fmt=18 Train Leaves Here This Morning
[Edited on 4-12-2010 by Rosco Bodine]
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quicksilver
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Thinking in diverse ways may be part of the human condition. But getting STARTED thinking differently is often a challenge. When I was younger I was
agnostic for the most part.
Two things got me started down a different road. The first thing was that I met some people who were very decent and didn't evangelize; yet their
belief was strong. It was also obvious that their belief gave them peace. The other thing was that I found that true Atheism (capital "A") was a
belief rather than simply wanting more evidence. And those Atheists that I met (for the most part) were REACTING to some of the abuses or problems
found in organized religion - but more so, to a PERSON who represented organized religion to them. It appeared like they were reacting to a person:
not a "deity concept" per se'.
I do my best to have a private part of me when it comes to "something greater than myself". I actually believe that part of a person should be in
their heart and not on their sleeve, so to speak. It's like those guys in Alcoholics Anonymous who put "Easy Does It" stickers on their trucks. It's
supposed to be Alcoholics Anonymous, not Alcoholics Public.
When I got started in moving from questioning to something more it was a long process: starting. And I certainly don't have the type of personality
that would be any good at convincing anyone of things: I make way too many mistakes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3SXKLas-ko&feature=relat...
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Ephoton
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I personaly think not.
I think they should be the same thing the search for were
we came from.
but then most just want to belive.
lazy if you ask me.
e3500 console login: root
bash-2.05#
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psychokinetic
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I'm not exactly waiting for anything. A lot of people don't understand how someone could just be happy with not knowing. But I am. There might be no
gods, and there might be (but probably not any that man has written about).... And really, that's OK.
I'd rather get on with my life.
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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Eynigma
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I think Mr. Robert G. Ingersoll sums up my opinion-at least on the traditional judeochristian non-sense-rather well. I am an atheist, and I'm an
atheist because I consider being an agnostic too much of a bow to religious nonsense in itself.
"If there is a God who will damn his children forever, I would rather go to hell than to go to heaven and keep the society of such an infamous tyrant.
I make my choice now. I despise that doctrine. It has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the hearts of children, and
poisoned the imaginations of men. It has been a constant pain, a perpetual terror to every good man and woman and child. It has filled the good with
horror and with fear; but it has had no effect upon the infamous and base. It has wrung the hearts of the tender, it has furrowed the cheeks of the
good. This doctrine never should be preached again. What right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel to stand at the portals of
the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and fill the future with horror and with fear? I do not believe this doctrine, neither do you. If you did, you
could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that
doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a hyena."--Robert G. Ingersoll
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cyanureeves
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tyrant
what's a trip is we have no say so in God's providence. a christian tastes pretty good to a lion whether the christian prays or not.but there is evil
in the world for sure. and it ain't just man's or animal nature.but what i like is the explanation of the three human races of the world explained by
genesis. japheth is father of northern and coastal people.ham populates southern hemispheres(africa) and shem goes way east(new york).except one
man(abraham) is pulled away from shem and makes his own race.it's a cool explanation of negroid,caucasoid and mongoloid. australoid threw a monkey
wrench in the creation scene for a while after cook's discovery.oh! and the rainbow shown to the father of the three patriarchs.red,yellow and blue.
out of those three colors the whole spectrum is composed. just like the world is composed of the three races. i guess the father(noah) is the original
white light.
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Ephoton
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it all went out the window for me when I was young
went to a catholic school made to do only one confession.
father please forgive me for I have sinned.
what is your sin son 
Im not a christian Ill never be a christian and your religion
is bullshit.
dont worry son you dont have to do confession again.
and thats how it went once and only once
I used to go down to the back oval dure in church times.
but each to there own so long as they dont push it on people.
[Edited on 9-12-2010 by Ephoton]
e3500 console login: root
bash-2.05#
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Eynigma
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Quote: Originally posted by arsphenamine  | I differentiate religion and science rather strictly.
Religion requires belief in the absence of proof and the presence of contradiction. It is a tool for organizing spiritual beliefs.
Science requires predictive theory based on proof; manifest fact requires no belief for existence. It is a tool for organizing the material universe.
Conflict arises when the Church and secular leaders use religion to motivate or justify activism in the secular realm. The 'God' defence is
historically an effective cover for criminal behavior.
[Insert derogatory references to Phlogiston, Lysenko, String Theory, et.al., here] |
Good points. Note also that the "God Defense" can be abused (even in a SECULAR society) by a criminal trying to feign insanity. The Elizabeth Smart
rapist/pedophile/kidnapper and his wife successfully employed it for years. I take issue with the idea of religion being acceptable as long as it is
"separated" from government, too. I went to 12 loooooong years of Catholic school and I can hardly recall a single sermon wherein the priest didn't
try to suggest ideas that would violate this separation.
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Rosco Bodine
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With regards to Ingersoll what else can be said but that reckless and bold words are what would be expected from a humanist. One luxury that hell
would not offer is an opportunity to repent of having chosen poorly a fate that is sealed. The impressiveness of words once thought clever is
destined for a reckoning where what was thought clever in one world has purchased for its destination a worse place instead of a better. Not
believing in the existence of either heaven or hell is really the security for such reckless words by those who would mock God, because they don't
really believe it is consequential ....they believe they could only offend an imaginary being and therefore need have no fear of any consequence (or
reward) which they believe is equally imaginary and so will never affect them. And if Ingersoll is right, of course then there never was a first
Christmas, there was no Jesus, no resurrection, there is no historical basis nor truth in scriptures carefully recorded, studied, and kept safe for
millenia by thousands of people not nearly so smart as Ingersoll. However it is good not to ever lose sight of the context for such statements by
Ingersoll which makes such reckless statements a non sequitur before their utterance and makes Ingersoll then a liar for the words even being spoken.
Somehow I don't think all the statuary of angels in cemetaries and churchyards
is soon going to be replaced by comforting statues of Ingersoll or Dawkins or
Bill Maher, or any of the other advocates of humanism.
To be impressed by such men is to be too easily impressed.
It isn't difficult to set a higher standard than such men, as most children probably do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvkoQUk-bMo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN_PNnoUJkY
[Edited on 1-1-2011 by Rosco Bodine]
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psychokinetic
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Just because you don't have a devout following doesn't mean you are wrong or any less reckless.
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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Rosco Bodine
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Christians are the salt of the earth. Salt is very good for countering nausea ....
(unless there is too much taken) .....something I shall try to keep in mind 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW5UEW2kYvc
Happy New Year 2011
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Sedit
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Salt is also very good for causing pain in the presence of a wound. Also can cause hypertension and other heart problems.
Take the above statement as you will
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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cyanureeves
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ooh! good thing you talked about salt. Jesus said if salt loses its taste it is useless. can salt lose its taste?is it the chloride that makes salt,
salty? sodium is what makes blood pressure shoot up and i know sedit was just generalizing. i read that saltpeter gets its name from salt of petra.
petra is not far from where Jesus walked about.i wonder if potassium nitrate is salty ,anyway tasteless salt is to be trampled on by men?dont they do
this in chicago on icy days?
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mario840
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Jesus ?? this priest ? this is only historical person that'a all , look at laureats nobel price (4 of them were catholics) , salt is salt it will be
always "salty" specially when you keep it in propery place, temp. , out of moisure etc. etc. ,this Bible is bunch of "story" , KNO3 has salty taste ,
just search a little : http://www.google.pl/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ve...
PS. how goes your experiment hahahahahahah
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cyanureeves
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boy is HE ever A priest! apparently without him i am counted as an enemy. bow down now or bow down later, but all will hit the knees.laureats and not!
my experiment dissolves copper like water color paint dropped in water. silver just dissintergrates into millions of particles, but it might as well
be ordinary tap water when it comes to gold. so potassium nitrate is salty,so am i after a couple of sweaty days cooking urea and carbonate.
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Rosco Bodine
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CovKq3QxFw A Bit of Musical Humor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S519ziFdcuk labrador
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxuunoxAzsg The Old Church Yard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXt6-AFPZg4 Where No One Stands Alone
[Edited on 6-1-2011 by Rosco Bodine]
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Rosco Bodine
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| Quote: Originally posted by kowalskil | | Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic | Religion and science? Probably not.
The existence of god(s) and science? Yeah, they don't exclude one another.
Those who say they do are equating existence with religion, whereas religion is one version of a story as written by men. Stories that will be
defended in the face of reason for many reasons.
Science does not exclude gods, no matter how many stories of men is contradicts. |
Here are additional observations:
To coexist peacefully means not to fight with each other. It does not mean that every scientist must be a deist (believer in God) and every deist must
be a scientist.
To accept is not the same thing as to tolerate. Mutual tolerance is sufficient for peaceful coexistence of science and religion.
Many atheists (those who want "to convert" others) are neither scientists nor deists; the same applies to many proselytizers.
Some people are comfortable with believing in God; other people are comfortable with rejecting God. That is OK with me. Why should we fight each
other?
Some people are comfortable with being scientists; other people are comfortable with rejecting science. That is also OK with me. Why should we fight
each other?
Why should we not tolerate each other? What is gained from fighting each other (sometimes burning and killing each other)?
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There is a balance which should be recognized and kept in mind, that science is concerned with the technical without regard for the ethical. Much of
what is scientific or technical can also have moral and ethical implications, and that may produce inevitable conflict. Not everything that is
technically interesting is something that ought to be made subject for experimentation or technical application because the obtaining of knowledge or
data is not necessarily the highest virtue. However, that wisdom is certainly lost and absent from any limiting effect on pure science which may
have no conscience at all, no ethic, no morality whatsoever
except for increasing of knowledge without any impediment
presented by any abstract moral valuation upon developing of whatever data or knowledge is sought.
Without religion science has no conscience nor soul and becomes an abomination in that it will do anyway what
ethically should not be done. There is an enormous distinction between knowledge and wisdom. Enthusiasm
for knowledge can too often lead to a lack of emphasis
on what is wisdom to be done with the knowledge, and the error involved is not always mathematically quantifiable.
Therefore science is like the curious child which requires
the adult supervision of the church, and science can piss and moan all it wishes about that, but that is how it shall remain.
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gsd
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine |
Therefore science is like the curious child which requires
the adult supervision of the church, and science can piss and moan all it wishes about that, but that is how it shall remain. |
All very true!
But looking at the state of all organized religions today and all sorts of scandals in which their guardians are perpetually embroiled, even a hard
core Believer is bound to wonder :
who supervises the supervisors?
gsd
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Rosco Bodine
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That supervisor in chief (of course) would be the almighty .
Sometimes admittedly there is reason for anyone to wonder
just how much supervising is being done. It seems to work
itself out given time.
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | science is like the curious child which requires
the adult supervision of the church |
And don't we all just know how well children benefit from this kind of "adult supervision" . . .
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Rosco Bodine
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What children have there ever been who didn't estimate they were much smarter than their parents, in some matter where that estimate later proved
faulty ?
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hissingnoise
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So whatever these ordained filthy wretches do to innocent children is your fucking god's version of collateral damage!
Thanks for clearing that up!
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Rosco Bodine
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What has science and government done to millions more innocent children to give you pride or standing to in general judge the church or god on the
basis and for the actions relatively few evil men who are the exception rather than the rule? All your railings are just that, where you deceptively
enlarge and generalize,
and whatever may be your railings or interpretations or opinions is probably one huge avoidance of some more personal conflict in your own heart.
More likely
is the situation that you are resentful or angry over something personal that you have enlarged and applied to the cosmos. Bitterness makes you feel
entitled
to judge harshly all as your reply to what you believe is some harsh judgement wrongly laid upon yourself. Self pity nourishing bitterness is a
spiritual and an intellectual abyss. But go right ahead with your enlightened analysis. What person is born into the imperfect world with a promise
that all will be well and they will only be treated wonderfully and fairly ? The world is not heaven.
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hissingnoise
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I just have no time for organised superstition!
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