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Author: Subject: Making fire (youtube collaborative video)
hkparker
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[*] posted on 8-12-2011 at 02:11


Thank you to TheNaKLaB for another great contribution, ethanol poured into steel wool and touched by a 9V battery.



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Formatik
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[*] posted on 27-12-2011 at 22:10


I've read ammonium persulfate and sodium sulfide were supposed to ignite upon being mixed. I've tried it with the potassium salt instead. But mixing K2S2O8 with sodium sulfide in small amounts caused no reaction. This mixture did not even produce any strong reaction when heated over a flame, with KNO3 in the same instance, the sulfide melted then exploded under liberation of fire and sparks.

I gave boranes another try using a non-oxidizing acid. I used the same boride containing material mentioned earlier. I added this to aq. HCl and this effervesced strongly, then I held flame over it but got not really any reaction (it seemed like there were traces of boranes, and there was a bad odor). I did this several times with flame, but got no reaction.

There is a variation I've found to the KBrO3 and sugar mixture, where sucrose (manna also) burns with a quick white-blue flame, xylitol in mixture with KBrO3 burned with a transparent and completely blue flame. I don't know if I'll be able to record this, but if another member has KBrO3, they can do it. A drop of H2SO4 should also ignite it.
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[*] posted on 9-1-2012 at 00:16


Ok, its been about a month since I said about a month, so I'm ready to get started on the editing. If anyone has something they would like to add let me know and ill wait, otherwise I'll start editing in one week.



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[*] posted on 9-1-2012 at 08:57


How can I contribute? I was thinking steel wool soaked in EtOH and sticking a battery's terminals onto the wool. If I film it can it go in?



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MrHomeScientist
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[*] posted on 9-1-2012 at 09:49


Apologies if this was already mentioned higher up.

PeriodicVideos just posted a new video today that I thought would be great for this project: Chromium trioxide and ethanol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HvYJQ5Bofk

If anyone has CrO3, this would be pretty neat to see. Wiki states it can be made from sodium dichromate and sulfuric acid. I have potassium dichromate, which I'm sure will work just as well, so maybe I'll give making CrO3 a try. Feel free to go on editing your video though, I won't be able to do it any time soon most likely. Eager to see the new collab!
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[*] posted on 9-1-2012 at 10:04


This may have already been mentioned - I know organolithium reagents as a class have been, but I wanted to specifically mention t-butyl lithium, usually sold as a 1.5M solution in pentane. This material is usually handled either by oven-dried glass syringes or by cannulla, and if you take a small amount up in a syringe and spray it through the air, it will ignite as it leaves the needle. It is considerably more pyrophoric than the other typical organolithium reagents such as methyllithium, phenyllithium, and n-butyllithium.

[Edited on 9-1-2012 by fledarmus]
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[*] posted on 9-1-2012 at 10:25


Can anyobdy therefore point me to a UK source for such reagents? I've got a few experiments I'd like to try that also use t-butyl lithium as they specify a tertiary alcohol-based organolithium reagent.



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[*] posted on 9-1-2012 at 12:59


We have a video of an ethanol soaked steel wool being touched by a battery, but as always more footage doesn't hurt.

I don't remember seeing chromium oxide and ethanol, but that would make a cool demonstration! How soon do you think you could give it a try? It is probably worth waiting for.

t-butyl lithium's flammability has really gotten some publicity as of late hasn't it? Be very careful if anyone tries this, but that too would be interesting to demonstrate.

If you're looking for reagents use the search engine in Reagent and Apparatus Acquisition, UK sources have most likely been discussed there before.




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[*] posted on 9-1-2012 at 13:35


I'll be busy tonight and tomorrow, so this weekend is about the earliest I could try. It depends on how much success I have making the CrO3 from what I have, never tried it before.

Using potassium dichromate and conc. sulfuric acid, the reaction should be
H2SO4 + K2Cr2O7 → 2CrO3 + K2SO4 + H2O

Looks like I can separate the products via solubility - CrO3 is more soluble, though solubilities of both compounds don't change much with temperature. The best I could do would be pretty impure, using this method. According to wiki, solubilities in g/100ml of water:

__________CrO3______K2SO4
0 C________61.7______11.1
25 C_______63.0______12.0
100 C______67.0______24.0


Edit: Actually, there's mention of CrO3 being subject to hydrolysis when dissolved in water. Would this destroy my product? Any other separation methods anyone can think of?

[Edited on 1-9-2012 by MrHomeScientist]

[Edited on 1-9-2012 by MrHomeScientist]
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[*] posted on 11-1-2012 at 09:40


A bit bulky, but a fire starter. I would use methanol though, the fuel/air ratio much more forgiving.
The electrophorus of S. Kamachi
http://www.ece.rochester.edu/~jones/demos/kamachi.html
Electrophorus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vbStOvfVGg&feature=relat...

[Edited on 11-1-2012 by Morgan]
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[*] posted on 14-1-2012 at 06:23


Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
Edit: Actually, there's mention of CrO3 being subject to hydrolysis when dissolved in water. Would this destroy my product? Any other separation methods anyone can think of?


Of course, wiki doesn't tell how to purify the trioxide from the H2SO4. The extraction is described by Mellor a bit (link may not be viewable to European servers). The chromium trioxide can be rinsed of H2SO4 using the conc. nitric acid, this can make it more reactive owing to chromyl nitrate impurities.

Ethanol is not the must for the reaction, other alcohols work also. Ketones are also said to ignite more or less vigorously. Polar aprotic solvents can react violently. Brake fluid might do something. CrO3 is more reactive after it has been crushed. Beware also of contamination with any organics whatever container it is put into.

If you don't have glass wool, you should be able to use a piece of insulation that was boiled in excess Piranha's acid for some time to destroy organics that were present. I've used this to filter nitrosyl pechlorate which is more violently reactive than CrO3.

There may be some parallels to reactivity to chromyl chloride which also ignites methanol or ethanol on contact, turpentine also. If pure, CrO3 is in the long term much more storage stable, but the chloride isn't. Nasty carcinogens both of them.
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[*] posted on 14-1-2012 at 08:30


I have a small quantity of CrO3 already and would be willing to try it out.



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[*] posted on 14-1-2012 at 10:04


Quote:
CrO3 is more reactive after it has been crushed.
Huh? Has anyone of you ever worked with CrO3? Do you realize how hygroscopic that stuff is?
And yes, ethanol ignites in contact with CrO3 as anybody who wiped CrO3 spills with an ethanol soaked paper towel can tell you. Been there, done that, don't see the point.

I wouldn't be surprised if it even works with K2CrO4.

[Edited on 14-1-2012 by turd]
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[*] posted on 14-1-2012 at 15:59


Crushed CrO3 is known to be more receptive towards a reaction with some materials. I'm not talking about crushing it and then letting it stand, but right after it has been crushed. You can see CrO3 being crushed in the video above.

UnintentionalChaos, anything you want to try out with it would be good. If others are experimenting too it may be good to also use the other alcohols or compounds and maybe try to avoid doing the same reaction.

I'm wondering if CrO3 and red fuming nitric acid form a stronger oxidant together, like KMnO4 and red fuming nitric acid which inflames alcohols and turpentine. Chlorate and red fuming nitric acid also form a more violent oxidant, unstable, decomposing, transient species (maybe NO2+ClO3-) which oxidizes alcohols utmost violently.

If I had any chromium (VI) compounds now I would have tried out some reactions with it, but I have really exposed myself to enough toxins, so that chromyl chloride was the only Cr(6+) compound I've ever handled which I had to make from pottery-grade Cr2O3.

Useful to those who know German. Gmelin, Chrom(VI)oxid.
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[*] posted on 15-1-2012 at 10:30


Here is the KBrO3 and xylitol reaction ignited by H2SO4:

KBrO3xylitol.png - 325kB

http://www.mediafire.com/?er8qw1bou113grc

The reaction looked different in smaller amounts, but here it looks similar the sugar mix. The mass ratio was 2:1 KBrO3 to xylitol.

The earlier mentioned ratio of KNO3 to sugar that was ignited by the PbO2 mix probably was not so important, since it seems nitrate was likely in excess.
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[*] posted on 15-1-2012 at 19:15


Thanks for the video Formatik!

That would be awesome if you gave it a try UC, I think CrO3 would produce some great reactions with a variety of fuels.




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[*] posted on 17-1-2012 at 15:43


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvRIykdzBXU
kclo3 + hno3 oxidizing ethanol ^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIcZLer8Lv8
KMnO4 + HNO3 + ethanol




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[*] posted on 7-2-2012 at 02:19


Alright, I'm going to start the editing process now. The only video I might be waiting on is the CrO3 from UnintentionalChaos. Should I expect that video in a couple of weeks? If so I'll wait but wannna wrap up any new submissions, otherwise I'll start now.

Thanks for the continued contributions everyone!




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[*] posted on 7-2-2012 at 08:37


The most oldest way alkaline metal + water
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[*] posted on 7-2-2012 at 08:39


Nitric acid + turpentine oil burst into flame . Nitric acid + charcoal also starts a fire
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[*] posted on 7-2-2012 at 08:40


What about chloric or perchloric reacting with organic materials
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[*] posted on 7-2-2012 at 10:38


Quote: Originally posted by hkparker  
Alright, I'm going to start the editing process now. The only video I might be waiting on is the CrO3 from UnintentionalChaos. Should I expect that video in a couple of weeks? If so I'll wait but wannna wrap up any new submissions, otherwise I'll start now.

Thanks for the continued contributions everyone!


Sorry, I forgot! I'll get on that.




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[*] posted on 10-2-2012 at 00:16


Can't edit anymore...

Special Scimad preview of my contributions!

http://youtu.be/_I7C3PqIXyY

http://youtu.be/zHw-lgjfqAU




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[*] posted on 13-2-2012 at 00:56


I didn't think anyone would do it but just mentioned it as an aside but I would not add to the project reaction of alcohol and acid chlorate mentioned above, and I know it well and will say this since it is not an ignition reaction and there are too many noobs on YouTube for something so vigorous.

In all experiments, the amounts should be kept small in the milligram range away from any combustible surroundings to help prevent unwanted fires. Especially important to keep it small with nitric acid plus permanganate and a fuel.

I speak from good experience in saying to keep the amounts small and the igniting material away from nearby combustibles. This is what I like in UC's videos, the controlled nature in which he carried out the experiments. Nothing nearby can readily catch fire.

Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder  
What about chloric or perchloric reacting with organic materials


Too violent for the making fire idea.

Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder  
Nitric acid + turpentine oil burst into flame .


Not in small amounts, here is the reaction of red fuming nitric acid (d= 1.48) with turpentine with the latter being dumped into the acid: http://www.mediafire.com/?58e5z3f84zz24h8

As we can see it spatters vigorously and sprays and ejects and gives off gas, but it does not ignite. Permanganate makes the difference as mentioned on page 11. Repost of working link to turpentine + nitric acid and permanganate reaction.

Turpentine flames burn with very visible orange flames and black smoke and so it's easy to tell no ignition occurred.

[Edited on 13-2-2012 by Formatik]
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[*] posted on 13-3-2012 at 16:11


*taps foot impatiently* c'mon hkparker. :P



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