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Author: Subject: Making fire (youtube collaborative video)
kuro96inlaila
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[*] posted on 14-2-2011 at 05:48


Here is my contribution,hope it is suitable for the project.

The first video is about the reaction of potassium metal with tissue paper.Which potassium takes oxygen from tissue paper and generate heat thus burn the tissue.After a few second on the tissue,the potassium metal need to be rub with tissue to initiate the burning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyUNK_0KLGE

And the second video is similar to the first,but other ingredient were added,that is elemental iodine.The tissue is not just burned because potassium and oxygen reaction,but also from potassium and iodine reaction.However,this experiment proceed violently throwing tiny bits of potassium everywhere.Sorry for the waving motion of the camera,I was quite shocked result from the violent reaction:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSJzi4U4q30

I hope it is satisfying!:)




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NurdRage
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[*] posted on 14-2-2011 at 08:12


nice work!

Do you have a tripod or some other means to stabilize the camera?

I may have to speed up the video but when i do that even minor waving becomes massively jerky.
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kuro96inlaila
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[*] posted on 14-2-2011 at 08:19


I wish I have one.:(

Maybe I can improvise my retort stand as tripod somehow and re-record the reaction if needed.

[Edited on 14-2-2011 by kuro96inlaila]




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NurdRage
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[*] posted on 14-2-2011 at 11:22


For now i think we'll stay away from the iodine potassium one. It looks a little TOO violent for what we're attempting.

The potassium and tissue alone look pretty good for the collaboration.
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Morgan
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[*] posted on 14-2-2011 at 12:52


@Morgan awesome! when i'm ready to start editing everything together i'll get the raw file from you. [/rquote]

The raw video is somewhat brighter, how I intended. You can see the woven wick a bit more. I don't know why youtube darkens the video.
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kuro96inlaila
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[*] posted on 14-2-2011 at 18:36


Quote: Originally posted by NurdRage  
For now i think we'll stay away from the iodine potassium one. It looks a little TOO violent for what we're attempting.

The potassium and tissue alone look pretty good for the collaboration.


Good idea!:)
I am into making better video on potassium and tissue paper,maybe in a few day it will be ready.




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Morgan
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[*] posted on 15-2-2011 at 13:13


I poured about a 1/3 teaspoon out of this bottle of platinum catalyst. It seems like I have a ton of it to play with, there's a full bottle that has been out in my shed for almost 8 years. And it's been through a flood too, thus the condition of the bottle, water got up around the label.
Anyway, here's another variation on a theme, finely divided platinum on alumina misted with methanol. I was going to sprinkle some particles in a flask filled with methanol, it's more dramatic but also kind of startling and I wasn't up for that today. If you stopper one end of an ideal length to width diameter tube with methanol vapor and light it in cool dry air, it makes a really good bark as feedback builds up instantly. Almost as loud as some barking dog demonstrations.
I shot several clips, but couldn't decide which was best, they all were kind of ordinary. I should do something that's more clever. Presentation is everything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3lS3TBuntw
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[*] posted on 15-2-2011 at 13:25


Quote: Originally posted by NurdRage  
I successfully ran the experiment of sodium dichloroisocyanuric acid with DMSO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRlM5PBbJ24


The trick is to inject the DMSO at the SIDE of the pile of NaDCCA. If you do it on top the heat just blows it back into the air and doesn't ignite.


Nice video. I've learned something new about the reaction. I couldn't get granules to ignite, so I used to grind the powder and then just dripped the sulfoxide on it. The greater surface area made a big difference. This is even more crucial to the KMnO4 and DMSO reaction, where permanganate should be pulverized for best results. What can also help, is to make small volcano-like piles with the powder, this allows better absorption of the liquid.
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[*] posted on 17-2-2011 at 21:17


I took a spring out of a writing pen and put in it 5 cylindrical pellets of palladium on alumia .5%. Then I wound about a foot of .002ths platinum wire around the spring as best I could. It's really hard working with wire you can barely see. I put the contraption in a 250ml Erlynmeyer flask with a bit a methanol. It started a fire twice but was very slow. A few other times the ceramic alumina catalyst got hot but didn't transfer enough heat to the wire, but did sizzle when dipped in the pool of methanol, so I know they were that hot. I think the spring, although allowing plenty of breathing, sapped too much of the heat away from the Pt wire or perhaps the platinum wire was not making good contact with the pellets. .002ths Pt wire will light methanol vapor quite quickly if coiled and preheated and placed in a flask of methanol. It's really quite a challenge to design just the right arrangement. As is, it was slow and only lit the fumes half of my 4 tries.
I can't get over how fast the previous experiment of 1%platinum on alumina powder lights up though, for today the petri dish it was in lit in less than 2 seconds, methanol aflame almost instantly. Perhaps there's a way to electrically sinter it onto some platinum wire without destroying the surface area effect. I'm going to see how eyedroppering methanol on it will do. Tomorrow is palladium on carbon, 1.25%. The carbon catalyst is like broken pencil lead segments, not flat on the ends, but smooth on the sides.
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[*] posted on 18-2-2011 at 09:08


That all sounds really exciting, Morgan. Always cool to hear about people really throwing themselves into experimentation! Sounds like you've got a lot of possibilities laid out, I'm eager to see them in action!
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[*] posted on 18-2-2011 at 12:31


Thanks for the encouragement MrHomeScientist. Once/if I get a less fragile homemade igniting device, I can use it for some more interesting demonstrations other than just starting a fire. The palladium on carbon rod bits 1.25% heat up, but I had to preheat them once with a methanol flame. Then I let them sit in the open petri dish for over an hour. They then heated up on their own when misted. Strange how this activation works.
I also tried the last catalyst I have, some platinum on alumina 5%. Now this catalyst has been idle in a plastic bottle for many years. I had to transfer it because the bottle was so old it about cracked. But the irregular sized beads, a little smaller than BB's activated without any help at all when misted with methanol. The petri dish was so hot it burned my fingers when I went to feel for any heat on the bottom of the dish.
I think if I use a coil of heavier Pt wire surrounding the Pt on alumina beads, along with the fine Pt wire wrapped in some fashion around the two, this will be my best bet, barring an electrical sintering process. I have some high voltage devices and I guess too you don't need that much power to heat a tiny wire.
Here's a few pictures of the catalysts, hopefully making this more interesting. I bought all this stuff on eBay when Pt was still relatively cheap. In the one picture from left to right is 5% Pt on alumina beads, Pt 1% on alumina powder, Pd 1.25% on carbon rod bits, and Pd .5% on alumina pellets.



Prills, Pellets, and Powder.JPG - 79kB Pt Wire .002.JPG - 72kB Various Catalysts.JPG - 68kB



[Edited on 19-2-2011 by Morgan]

Attachment: phpyuDYQr (72kB)
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kuro96inlaila
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[*] posted on 19-2-2011 at 06:45


I managed to use my retort stand as tripod to stabilize the camera.So here the new video about potassium metal and tissue paper:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y6d8cUTOJ4




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NurdRage
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[*] posted on 19-2-2011 at 10:42


looking good! i'll probably use that one!
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MrHomeScientist
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[*] posted on 19-2-2011 at 12:26


I tried reacting Al + I2 powders, but it didn't catch fire like I hoped it would. It was also way slower to start up than I expected, it took about 10 minutes to initiate. I only used 3g of each reagent, so perhaps a bit of a scale up is in order? :)

edit: I powdered the reagents finely and mixed them together thoroughly and even added a few drops of water to get it going, but it still took the 10 minutes to do anything.

[Edited on 2-19-2011 by MrHomeScientist]
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kuro96inlaila
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[*] posted on 19-2-2011 at 19:38


Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
I tried reacting Al + I2 powders, but it didn't catch fire like I hoped it would. It was also way slower to start up than I expected, it took about 10 minutes to initiate. I only used 3g of each reagent, so perhaps a bit of a scale up is in order? :)

edit: I powdered the reagents finely and mixed them together thoroughly and even added a few drops of water to get it going, but it still took the 10 minutes to do anything.

[Edited on 2-19-2011 by MrHomeScientist]


Try to mix them in stoichiometric amount,for an example, 6.3g of powdered I2 and and 1.3g aluminium powder,thoroughly mixed and then add a few drop of water,it should initiated much more faster.

Good luck!:)




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[*] posted on 21-2-2011 at 15:49


Success! Thanks for the advice kuro96inlaila, that worked much better :D I did 5g of iodine and about 1g of aluminum (trying to skimp on the I2, since I need it for something else). It's a really beautiful reaction!

Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0H5EwVbkQM
I'll make this into a full video later and make it public on my channel. I've got more footage of preparing the mixture, I just wanted to skip to the chase in this clip.

NurdRage, how's that look for the collab video?
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NurdRage
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[*] posted on 21-2-2011 at 21:08


WOW, that is amazing!

Definitely using that for the collab video!

:)
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[*] posted on 21-2-2011 at 22:19


Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
Success! Thanks for the advice kuro96inlaila, that worked much better :D I did 5g of iodine and about 1g of aluminum (trying to skimp on the I2, since I need it for something else). It's a really beautiful reaction!


You're welcomed,
Beautiful reaction!:D




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[*] posted on 22-2-2011 at 14:08


I did a slight variation on a theme, a rough mix of iodine and ammonium nitrate sprinkled over a pile of powdered magnesium. Then I put a few drops of methanol on the pile because it was closer than getting some water. It was kind of glittery with magnesium and a pretty vapor of course.
I also crudely mixed a pile of aluminum powder and iodine. While it didn't light without help, (I cut to the chase with a pencil torch), it did smolder in a pleasant way. There was no wind, so the beautiful cloud just sat above the pile with a gentle bouyancy.
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[*] posted on 22-2-2011 at 16:38


I'm having some difficulty deciding how to design a platinum lighter of sorts that can take a bit of buffeting without damage. Fine delicate Pt wire will get torn in any kind of abrupt ignition. One thing I thought of was to put the wires and high surface area bead inside a piece of tiny glass tubing. If this were held in the verticle, there could be a chimney effect helping to ignite the fuel/air mix by drawing fresh air up from the bottom. The tubing might provide some protection for the wires as well. With my crude spring and pellet design, I think some of the fresh air was getting used up and not letting the wound wire have enough oxygen to light reliably.
This example uses a chamber too, but requires a small amount of electricity to start the reaction. It doesn't rely on convection though. I read of this plug many years ago.
http://www.smartplugs.com/
There is a convection trick they use with the glowing Pt wire in an Erlynmeyer flask where they put a simple partitiion in the neck and the coil on one side. This causes cold air to flow into the flask and the opposite side the heat of the reaciton causes the fumes to rise. Another good example is that of a candle in the bottom of a tube. By dividing the tube in half with a long strip of cardboard, the candle stays lit. If you pull the carboard partition out, the candle is extinguished.
Now I have to decide how to bundle several spider web thin wires and PT bead into something that will sit and stay inside a glass tube of some ideal diameter.
As an aside, here is a topic on achieving a high surface area in a platinum catalyst.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLh5YsIYc2w

A bit more for perspective on the smart plug. I guess you could say it's a modified glow plug.
http://www.smartplugs.com/smartplug/index.html
http://www.smartplugs.com/about.htm

"Inside each unit lies a ceramic rod coated with a catalyst-typically platinum, but sometimes rhodium, palladium, or ceria. The rod threads into the SMARTPLUG's crown and lies centered within a hollow cylindrical chamber that extends the length of the body. At the tip of the SMARTPLUG, a set of flame nozzles exhaust the chamber to the engine cylinder."
http://www.smartplugs.com/news/designnews.htm


[Edited on 23-2-2011 by Morgan]
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[*] posted on 23-2-2011 at 10:14


For the collaborative video you don't have to go that far. The objective with the video is just to demonstrate various approaches. We don't need to go overboard and create a fully functional how-to with this. If you wish to create a complete guide by all means, but there is no need to go through all that effort for the video. The demo with the spray-on methanol is all we really need. :)
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[*] posted on 23-2-2011 at 13:35
The Explosive Reaction Between Swimming Pool Chlorine and Brake Fluid


"Granular swimming pool chlorine (calcium hypochlorite) and brake fluid (poly-ethylene glycol) react violently when mixed together, producing a fierce fireball. This paper proposes a mechanism which explains the production of the flammable products of the reaction by means of a radical fragmentation of polyethylene glycol."

See the attached reference for details.

Attachment: JFS363910902.pdf (313kB)
This file has been downloaded 860 times

[Edited on 2.23.2011 by slinky]
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Morgan
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[*] posted on 23-2-2011 at 13:53


I realise I was straying off-topic but there are some good demonstrations of usefulness with catalysts and I didn't want to keep making a new part every time I did an ignition becaue of fragility.
I thought of one thing that would be easy to do not involving fragility. If you have seen the sondhauss tube effect with melted sulfur and steel wool in a test tube, I think you could do a Rijke tube with catalysts "burning" methanol merely by adding/wicking methanol to a catalytic grid. The other day I misted my platinum coated beads and got down to eye level with the dish. While it didn't light the methanol, you could certainly feel the heat on the bottom of the petri dish and see heat waves lifting off the surface of the pile of beads, methanol "burning" in a kind of interesting mirage effect. The grid would get fresh air from the bottom of the tube via convection.
They also call these tubes howler tubes, but usually the demo is a wire screen heated with a torch, focused sunlight or an electrically heated grid to build feedback. I once read of a very large howler tube purring quietly in a classroom but being set off by a simple tap of a tuning fork across the room of the correct frequency. The sound/feedback then became deafening and the chalkboards rattling. I like weird things like that.
Anyway the sound would be an auditory way of detecting combustion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT_iTV7QeDg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMoRkEffFOQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv0ulNLRkWM
Sulfur Iron Whistle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7HidVyFdn8





[Edited on 23-2-2011 by Morgan]
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NurdRage
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[*] posted on 23-2-2011 at 20:31


Quote: Originally posted by slinky  
"Granular swimming pool chlorine (calcium hypochlorite) and brake fluid (poly-ethylene glycol) react violently when mixed together, producing a fierce fireball. This paper proposes a mechanism which explains the production of the flammable products of the reaction by means of a radical fragmentation of polyethylene glycol."

See the attached reference for details.



[Edited on 2.23.2011 by slinky]


I tried the pool chlorine and break fluid a few weeks ago but nothing happened. Although it might be because i have old stuff.

Has anyone else tried this?
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[*] posted on 23-2-2011 at 20:41


I remember trying a variant of this a couple of years ago. I didnt have any brake fluid so I thought I would try glycerin, well it reacted but not in the way I expected. After pouring the glycerin on the hypochlorite the mix started to steam then bubble then it smoker vigorously for about 20 seconds, but I was never able to achieve ignition.It was a nice smoke bomb but it didnt really do anything else. Oh and it STANK, imagine burnt sugar and chlorine.
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