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Author: Subject: Making fire (youtube collaborative video)
hkparker
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[*] posted on 23-2-2011 at 22:17


I tried pool Ca(ClO)2 with sulfur as suggested earlier, however it didn't react. I believe this to be due to the hypochlorite containing large amounts of TCCA, so maybe it will react in a more pure form.

Anyway I have hardly found enough free time to shoot, even for my own channel, but I should be free this weekend. Here's what I hope to film:

KMnO4 and glycerin.
KClO3, sugar, and sulfuric acid.
Manganese heptoxide and ...stuff.

Those are the obvious ones. Ill also do:

Acetylene and chlorine
"Negative X" flash powder (silver nitrate, zinc, and ammonium chloride)
I'm looking into ICl and some organics.
And maybe sifting flower over the reactions to create a bigger flame :)




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UnintentionalChaos
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[*] posted on 24-2-2011 at 22:41


I've got spontaneous ignition of parrafin wax vapor working. I'll make video. This is the test tube in water demo I had mentioned earlier. After doing it a few times, I have different ideas about the mechanics. It's above the autoignition temperature at boiling. Water seeping into the cracked tube after plunging into ice water creates a steam explosion that sprays the wax out as a mist. This spontaneously ignites when dispersed in air.

Here's someone else's video of the demo:

<iframe sandbox title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4vDM22dplrk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Edited on 2-25-11 by UnintentionalChaos]




Department of Redundancy Department - Now with paperwork!

'In organic synthesis, we call decomposition products "crap", however this is not a IUPAC approved nomenclature.' -Nicodem
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Morgan
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[*] posted on 25-2-2011 at 09:58


I liked how casual the demonstration was, one hand on the goggles. I came across this article on paraffin. It came to mind when I was thinking about the demonstration, how sodium melts at a low temperature but boils at a relatively high temperature. So I got to wondering what the boiling point of wax was.

"Because of the difficulty in controlling the heating rate in a microwave oven, paraffin
wax should only be heated to melting point in a water bath with a controllable
electric heat source.
Direct heating over an electric mantle or in a microwave oven could easily produce
temperatures of the same order as the flash point (180oC) thus greatly increasing the
likelihood of ignition. Since the melting point is about 60oC and the boiling point is
370oC, uncontrolled heating could easily push the temperature of the molten liquid into
this zone. Obviously, heating with a bunsen burner or other gas flame would also be
highly likely to produce a fire and must be expressly forbidden." ha
http://www.uq.edu.au/ohs/pdfs/alert-paraffin.pdf

Another source
Flashpoint ( °C): 199°C
Boiling point: >370°C
Autoflammability: 245°C
http://www.logitech.uk.com/cn/MSDS/Files%5C0CON-194.pdf


[Edited on 25-2-2011 by Morgan]
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Formatik
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[*] posted on 27-2-2011 at 12:37


Quote: Originally posted by NurdRage  
I tried the pool chlorine and break fluid a few weeks ago but nothing happened. Although it might be because i have old stuff.

Has anyone else tried this?


The amounts used may need to be larger. Fresh hypochlorite can likely influence the reaction. As it decomposes over time, Ca(OCl)2 forms CaCl2 and Ca(ClO3)2, both of which are very hygroscopic. The article below indicates methyl carbitol (a glycol ether) and dry hypochlorite react after a few minutes evolving irritating smoke and fire. Glycerin is said to react quicker. I have seen some other household products with similar glycol compounds, those could react to give fire (I'm betting at least with permanganate).

Attachment: ie50592a013.pdf (642kB)
This file has been downloaded 718 times

There is also equal parts of I2 with Al, Zn, or Mg. Adding a drop of water is said to cause ignition and release iodine vapors (mentioned in DOI: 10.1021/ed032p273). The mixture with aluminium mixture was also discussed earlier in the thread.
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Chordate
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[*] posted on 27-2-2011 at 14:50


You can actually do a very similar thing with bacon grease and water.

Take a cast iron skillet with a few quarts of bacon grease in it, heat it over a campfire to just about it's smoke point, and then, using a 14 foot pole made by lashing a few oars together you carefully pour about 16 ounces of water into the bacon grease. The steam formed carries up the grease forming a nice fuel-air mixture, which ignites on the campfire. Sometimes you get 20-30 foot fireball.
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Morgan
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[*] posted on 27-2-2011 at 16:02


I remember when I was about 10, I put some Cox glow fuel on a small pile of calcium hypochlorite. It quickly turned the off-white granules an almost potassium dichromate orange color, and then a few seconds later a spontaneous crackly red fire. I guess back then the HTH chlorine product was 75% pure. One day I put little piles of sulfur and hypochlorite out in the yard and lit them with the hose. Another time I found out it would light without water for I had put a few tablespoons of well mixed sulfur and calcium hypochlorite in an empty plastic sulfur jar and hours later just after the lid was unscrewed, it went off in a near flash. Oh those days of innocent wonder.

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NurdRage
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[*] posted on 27-2-2011 at 22:43


HKparker has just given me his four videos on the following methods:

Acetylene + chlorine (via carbide)
manganese heptoxide
permanganate + glycerine
Sugar + chlorate

Thanks Hkparker.

If the rest of you want to send me your raw files, message me on a method. Alternatively i can swipe them through youtube although i prefer not to since the quality is lower.

i still want to get more methods, so if keep filming if you want to participate. :)
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Morgan
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[*] posted on 2-3-2011 at 20:23


Maybe you could do the paraffin test tube in water fire using sulfur instead.

Boiling Point: 832oF (444oC)
Freezing/Melting Point: 230-246oF (110-119oC)
Bulk Density: Lumps 75-115 lbs./ft3 Powder 33-80 lbs./ft3
Flashpoint: 405OF (207.2oC)
Flammable Limits: LEL: 3.3 UEL: 46.0
Auto-ignition Temperature: 478-511oF (248-266oC)
http://www.georgiagulfsulfur.com/properties.htm
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NurdRage
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[*] posted on 3-3-2011 at 07:16


kuro96inlaila gave me his video on potassium vs tissue paper, thanks kuro96inlaila.

things are looking good :)
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[*] posted on 4-3-2011 at 15:01


The second full paragraph talks about lowering the autoignition temperature with pure oxygen. Maybe a demonstration could be arranged around this philosophy.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ygATMSwPbtAC&pg=PA139&a...
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Elawr
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[*] posted on 4-3-2011 at 22:14


Did we mention introducing wad of turpentine-soaked paper towel into vessel of chlorine gas...lot of dense white fumes followed by flames and plenty of back smoke.



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NurdRage
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[*] posted on 5-3-2011 at 01:34


thanks MrHomeScientist for sending me his raw video on the reaction of aluminum and iodine!
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NurdRage
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[*] posted on 6-3-2011 at 21:43
KMnO4 + Ethylene Glycol


This is potassium permanganate and ethylene glycol (primary component of antifreeze)

almost exactly the same as glycerin:

<iframe sandbox title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6hxwOS4c1oE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Keep your submissions coming, if you want to send me raw files, upload them to megaupload first and then send me the link. I'll tell you when i finished downloading so you can take it off.

[Edited on 7-3-2011 by NurdRage]
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MrHomeScientist
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[*] posted on 7-3-2011 at 08:55


I did a large scale version of acetylene + chlorine yesterday, and I'll put it on megaupload soon. I know hkparker already sent you one, but mine's short and might make for a good extra segment. I'll leave that up to you.

I also tried making manganese heptoxide, but that failed twice. The first time I used battery acid, and it only made the purple color of dissolved KMnO4 and had no reaction at all. Next I tried more concentrated 15M acid - this produced a brown color and also showed no reaction. I'm thinking the acid needs further concentration, since producing Mn2O7 requires the dehydrating power of H2SO4 - does that sound right?
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NurdRage
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[*] posted on 7-3-2011 at 10:14


yeah, manganese heptoxide needs conc. (98%) sulfuric acid to work reliably.

By all means send me duplicates and repeat experiments, the more angle we get the better :)
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[*] posted on 8-3-2011 at 14:59


Quote: Originally posted by NurdRage  


I tried the pool chlorine and break fluid a few weeks ago but nothing happened. Although it might be because i have old stuff.

Has anyone else tried this?


If you search "Chlorine and Brake Fluid " on youtube you can see many videos of fireballs and small explosions being made. I haven't personally tried this. Also keep in mind that there are several different blends of break fluids. http://www.advancepetro.com/differentbrakefluid.htm I'm thinking that the 5.1 would be the best choice.
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[*] posted on 8-3-2011 at 21:02


Here is a US army technical manual which includes several methods of starting fire with chemicals.

[Edited on 3.9.2011 by slinky]
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mewrox99
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[*] posted on 8-3-2011 at 21:04


Where is this manual you speak of?
It sounds super interesting
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[*] posted on 8-3-2011 at 21:11


Sorry about that. I exceeded the 2 MB attachment limit. So the board allowed me to post but stripped the TM

http://www.multiupload.com/Y09P1DE2WI
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hkparker
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[*] posted on 8-3-2011 at 22:46


I should be doing a water activated flash powder (the NH4NO3/AgNO3/Mg type) in the next few days and ill send that around to you NurdRage. After that I wanna do a short about spraying flower over any method of fire, ill get on my table outside and make a big demo of it. Then that will be all for me. Sounds like this is really coming together :)



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mewrox99
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[*] posted on 9-3-2011 at 12:49


Hey Nurdrage

Can i msg u the raw file of the chip in Mn2O7.
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slinky
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[*] posted on 9-3-2011 at 13:55


"Hypergolics" are chemicals that ignite upon mixing with an incompatible material. These mixtures create heat when mixed which is sufficient to cause ignition. No ignition source is necessary. Storage and use of these materials must be thought out carefully. Examples of these groups are provided.

* perchloric acid + magnesium powder = fire
* acetone + 85%nitric acid = fire
* nitric acid + phenol = fire
* concentrated nitric acid + triethylamine = fire
* red fuming nitric acid + aromatic amines = fire
* divinyl ether + 96% nitric acid + 5% sulfuric acid = fire
* 90% solution of potassium permanganate in red fuming nitric acid + alcohols = fire
* solid potassium permanganate + ketones, esters, alcohols = fire

Source: http://safety.science.tamu.edu/combreact.html

Running a patent search for "Hypergolic" returned 820 results. Here are some of the results.





Attachment: 5932837.non.toxic.hypergolic.miscible.bi.pdf (36kB)
This file has been downloaded 1380 times

Attachment: hypergolic.azide.fuels.with.hydrogen.peroxide.us6949152.pdf (56kB)
This file has been downloaded 714 times

Attachment: hypergolic.propellants.us3740947.pdf (117kB)
This file has been downloaded 511 times

Attachment: liquid.hypergolic.propellent.us20050022911.pdf (66kB)
This file has been downloaded 602 times

Attachment: make.non.hypergolic.fules.hypergolic.us4316359.pdf (132kB)
This file has been downloaded 637 times

Attachment: non.toxic.hypergolic.propellant.us5932837.pdf (45kB)
This file has been downloaded 590 times

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NurdRage
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[*] posted on 9-3-2011 at 19:14


@hkparker looking forward to it!

@Mewrox99 sure, just send me the megaupload link
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hkparker
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[*] posted on 10-3-2011 at 18:53


I was wrong about my negative x formula, ill be doing two, silver nitrate/magnesium and ammonium nitrate/zinc/sodium chloride



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[*] posted on 10-3-2011 at 20:48


Quote: Originally posted by slinky  
...

* perchloric acid + magnesium powder = fire
* acetone + 85%nitric acid = fire
* nitric acid + phenol = fire
* concentrated nitric acid + triethylamine = fire
* red fuming nitric acid + aromatic amines = fire
* divinyl ether + 96% nitric acid + 5% sulfuric acid = fire
* 90% solution of potassium permanganate in red fuming nitric acid + alcohols = fire
* solid potassium permanganate + ketones, esters, alcohols = fire

Source: http://safety.science.tamu.edu/combreact.html


Usually in those sorts of lists, the reactions do not work as one might think. Sometimes you need large amounts, because they are talking about hazards - where lab-scale and industrial-scale hazards are mixed together as precautions. The list also gets a bit too general.

The reaction of acetone with fuming nitric acid is detailed in the silver acetylmethylnitrolate thread. In small amounts, it does not catch fire, but crackles violently and gases off nitrogen oxides heavily, because of the products of the reaction it seems it's more likely to explode than ignite in larger amounts.

The percentage of KMnO4 in red fuming nitric acid which is said to make primary aliphatic and some secondary alcohols immediately hypergolic with the acid, is 20% according to Brethericks. I had some success in getting a flame from this oxidant mixture and turpentine. But not MeOH, EtOH in small quantities.

I've mixed KMnO4 with ethyl lactate, diethyltoluamide, and methylethylketone and none ignited or glowed after several minutes. The ethyl lactate was the only one to visibly react and reduced the permanganate turning brown under mild evolution of fumes within a few seconds.
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