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Petn1933
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[*] posted on 8-11-2019 at 09:36
What’s your opinion?



Whate you think about this:
Petn 67%
Etn 28%
Nc 2.5%
Al powder 2.5%

We Mix all with acetone and then mold it.

I want to know your opinion friends:)


Tnx
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LardmanAttack
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[*] posted on 9-11-2019 at 15:13


Try it. :P
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underground
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[*] posted on 10-11-2019 at 02:53


2.5% Nc wont do much. Also AL is not needed.
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Herr Haber
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[*] posted on 12-11-2019 at 04:33


Silly idea.
If you add acetone to that mix you will have a mixed solution of nitric esters.
Then you wont be able to "mold" anything at all. You could then evaporate the acetone but... you're just overcomplicating things.

I suggest you get Urbanski's tome III




The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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Praxichys
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[*] posted on 12-11-2019 at 08:16


What do you want to do with it?

Are you trying to homogenize and densify it? Do you need it moldable in-situ or do you simply need a fixed shape? Are you looking to maximize brisance or total output energy, or have a thermobaric effect?
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wessonsmith
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[*] posted on 12-11-2019 at 10:00


He wanted advice on a thermobaric composition. His only binder was NC. My advice was to ditch the ETN and go with:
PETN 45
NC 15
AI powder 40
Mix all with acetone and then mold it. I would also add some magnesium if available. A good thermobaric comp needs excess fuel, NC isn't fuel-rich enough, so not an ideal binder.

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underground
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[*] posted on 12-11-2019 at 10:48


Still 15% NC wont do much. My advice is to use 10-15% pib/motor oil for a binder and skip that NC
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wessonsmith
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[*] posted on 12-11-2019 at 16:51


Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Still 15% NC wont do much. My advice is to use 10-15% pib/motor oil for a binder and skip that NC

I agree with the 15% pib/motor oil, not sure he has access to it, though.
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Petn1933
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[*] posted on 13-11-2019 at 00:23


Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  
What do you want to do with it?

Are you trying to homogenize and densify it? Do you need it moldable in-situ or do you simply need a fixed shape? Are you looking to maximize brisance or total output energy, or have a thermobaric effect?


Thank you for your reply
You are right, because I have not specified what I want to use this compound for. I am looking for maximum energy and explosive speed. By adding aluminum to this explosive compound, I want to see the explosion rate would increase or not?
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Petn1933
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[*] posted on 13-11-2019 at 00:26


Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
He wanted advice on a thermobaric composition. His only binder was NC. My advice was to ditch the ETN and go with:
PETN 45
NC 15
AI powder 40
Mix all with acetone and then mold it. I would also add some magnesium if available. A good thermobaric comp needs excess fuel, NC isn't fuel-rich enough, so not an ideal binder.



Thank you dear wessonsmith
I’ll try it;)
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Petn1933
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[*] posted on 13-11-2019 at 00:36


Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Still 15% NC wont do much. My advice is to use 10-15% pib/motor oil for a binder and skip that NC


Dear underground, 2 years ago I tried plastic explosive.70/30 petn:etn and it has been powerful.
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Herr Haber
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[*] posted on 13-11-2019 at 04:54


Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
He wanted advice on a thermobaric composition. His only binder was NC. My advice was to ditch the ETN and go with:
PETN 45
NC 15
AI powder 40
Mix all with acetone and then mold it. I would also add some magnesium if available. A good thermobaric comp needs excess fuel, NC isn't fuel-rich enough, so not an ideal binder.



So now you have a solution of PETN and NC in acetone with Al segregating at the bottom.
How do you mold that ?

Even if you add just enough acetone to gel the NC then incorporate the PETN some of it will dissolve and not recristalize in an optimal way after the solvent evaporates. Not an elegant solution.





The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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underground
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[*] posted on 13-11-2019 at 05:22


Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  
Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Still 15% NC wont do much. My advice is to use 10-15% pib/motor oil for a binder and skip that NC


Dear underground, 2 years ago I tried plastic explosive.70/30 petn:etn and it has been powerful.


I mean, it wont do much 15% NC as a binder, i am not talking about performance. You have to use a better binder like i said pib/motor oil for a good plastic.

[Edited on 13-11-2019 by underground]
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Petn1933
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[*] posted on 13-11-2019 at 06:23


Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  
Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Still 15% NC wont do much. My advice is to use 10-15% pib/motor oil for a binder and skip that NC


Dear underground, 2 years ago I tried plastic explosive.70/30 petn:etn and it has been powerful.


I mean, it wont do much 15% NC as a binder, i am not talking about performance. You have to use a better binder like i said pib/motor oil for a good plastic.

[Edited on 13-11-2019 by underground]


Yes, I understand what you mean, but here my goal is not to make plastic. I want to use acetone and nitrocellulose to make a solid material after the solvent evaporates.
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wessonsmith
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[*] posted on 13-11-2019 at 06:54
Very Powerful Thermobaric comp


FYI this is my Thermobaric composition.

ETN 55.00 (g)
Al(3μm/) 12.00
Mg/Al(44μm/325mesh) 18.00 (50/50 mix)

Soy Lecithin(liquid) 0.300
lmwHTPB Resin 11.69 (lmw=Low Molecular Weight)
Isodecyl Pelargonate Plasticizer 0.73
Modified MDI Isocyanate Curative 1.84
CAO-5 Antioxidant 0.44

Very modelable and storable composition. I am aware that people outside the USA don't have access to HTPB.

FYI this is an adaptation from a military-grade Thermobaric comp. I am substituting out HMX for ETN. So logistically, the military wouldn't use it due to the low melting temp, but from a practical/individual level, it is excellent.

[Edited on 13-11-2019 by wessonsmith]
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underground
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[*] posted on 13-11-2019 at 07:10


Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  
Yes, I understand what you mean, but here my goal is not to make plastic. I want to use acetone and nitrocellulose to make a solid material after the solvent evaporates.


Then add 5-10% vaseline.

[Edited on 13-11-2019 by underground]
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wessonsmith
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[*] posted on 13-11-2019 at 08:33


Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  
Yes, I understand what you mean, but here my goal is not to make plastic. I want to use acetone and nitrocellulose to make a solid material after the solvent evaporates.


Then add 5-10% vaseline.

[Edited on 13-11-2019 by underground]


Adding the vasiline would help a lot with the fuel needed for a good Thermobaric effect. Good call.
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Herr Haber
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[*] posted on 13-11-2019 at 09:14


Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  

Yes, I understand what you mean, but here my goal is not to make plastic. I want to use acetone and nitrocellulose to make a solid material after the solvent evaporates.


Did I say Tome III ?

Solvent / solventless double and triple base powders processes should be of interest to you if you insist on using a solvent.




The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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MineMan
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[*] posted on 13-11-2019 at 11:39


NC is the best binder for thermobaric.... combined effects is achieved if the binder is active. But not if it’s inactive. NC is active.
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Petn1933
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[*] posted on 13-11-2019 at 21:40


Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933  

Whate you think about this:
Petn 67%
Etn 28%
Nc 2.5%
Al powder 2.5%

We Mix all with acetone and then mold it.

I want to know your opinion friends:)


Tnx



3E8FCE2F-F293-4637-8D72-FD474214FC44.jpeg - 434kBDD19550B-8101-4C81-92C6-FF18CCCB723A.jpeg - 499kB
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Petn1933
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[*] posted on 13-11-2019 at 21:45


about 1/4 pound.
Now I have to see when I can blow it up:/
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wessonsmith
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[*] posted on 14-11-2019 at 07:39


Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
NC is the best binder for thermobaric.... combined effects is achieved if the binder is active. But not if it’s inactive. NC is active.


That is not the case for a Thermobaric composition; it is the case for plastic explosives. A successful thermobaric composition requires an excess of fuel for it to work correctly. The ratio of fuel/oxidizer/energetic needs to be such that the excess fuel is properly ignited so that it can then recruit the available oxygen in the area. It's this reignition of the excess fuel that causes the vacuum, and sustained blast overpressure.

NC doesn't contain enough fuel to be an effective Thermobaric binder. HTPB has 10x the fuel density of NC. Where thermobaric's shine are enclosed spaces, that excess of fuel recruits the available oxygen(oxidizer) within the room, causing a partial vacuum, which is then replaced by a sustained overpressure wave produced by the continued ignition of the excess fuel by the recruited oxygen.

Something interesting I discovered in my quest for an effective thermobaric composition was the effect that the container has on the thermobaric outcome. A 3mm thick aluminum shell can dissipate the thermobaric effect by as much as 60% as compared to a thermobaric composition without a shell. That is why I use a plastic container instead of a metal one for my thermobaric composition.

For futher reading I suggest these two research papers.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ALAn-co9H3OugWTx45Yj...
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MineMan
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[*] posted on 14-11-2019 at 12:45


Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith  
Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
NC is the best binder for thermobaric.... combined effects is achieved if the binder is active. But not if it’s inactive. NC is active.


That is not the case for a Thermobaric composition; it is the case for plastic explosives. A successful thermobaric composition requires an excess of fuel for it to work correctly. The ratio of fuel/oxidizer/energetic needs to be such that the excess fuel is properly ignited so that it can then recruit the available oxygen in the area. It's this reignition of the excess fuel that causes the vacuum, and sustained blast overpressure.

NC doesn't contain enough fuel to be an effective Thermobaric binder. HTPB has 10x the fuel density of NC. Where thermobaric's shine are enclosed spaces, that excess of fuel recruits the available oxygen(oxidizer) within the room, causing a partial vacuum, which is then replaced by a sustained overpressure wave produced by the continued ignition of the excess fuel by the recruited oxygen.

Something interesting I discovered in my quest for an effective thermobaric composition was the effect that the container has on the thermobaric outcome. A 3mm thick aluminum shell can dissipate the thermobaric effect by as much as 60% as compared to a thermobaric composition without a shell. That is why I use a plastic container instead of a metal one for my thermobaric composition.

For futher reading I suggest these two research papers.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ALAn-co9H3OugWTx45Yj...


I appreciate your very detailed explanation. But combined effect explosives have both a thermobaric effect and a high gurney velocity. Only possible with an active binder.... In fact... the gurney energy can be higher then without the metal powder... that’s impressive!
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[*] posted on 15-11-2019 at 00:34



Quote:

I am looking for maximum energy and explosive speed. By adding aluminum to this explosive compound, I want to see the explosion rate would increase or not


From this, it seems that he is looking for something that isn't necessarily thermobaric or plastic. It also seems that he is looking for high explosion energy and high "explosion rate" (which I would interpret as VOD). Unless moldability is desired, I don't think it would be a good idea to use PIB/oil as the binder/plasticizer matrix. NC is quite a decent binder, but gets quite brittle unless plasticized. Personally I would add a little NG for this purpose (about 0,3-0,5g per gram of NC), but it is possible that ETN or PETN may have an equivalent effect.
With regards to solvent, acetone is fine but you shouldn't just mix and evaporate in some mold; it will get inhomogenous as Haber says. Instead, mix thoroughly while evaporating most of the solvent. Then granulate and evaporate practically all the rest. Then press the charge with a dwell time of at least 5 minutes.
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[*] posted on 15-11-2019 at 04:34


Quote: Originally posted by Microtek  

NC is quite a decent binder, but gets quite brittle unless plasticized. Personally I would add a little NG for this purpose (about 0,3-0,5g per gram of NC), but it is possible that ETN or PETN may have an equivalent effect.


I thought of mentioning NG or DNT but feared for op's safety. Though now that I think of it the solventless processes I pointed to would be ideal:
NC in water, a lot of agitation while incorporating NG then separate the gel from water to add PETN or toss the PETN straight in the water. Beyond a few percents it will be brittle though.

I have no doubt Wessonsmith could transform a pasta making machine to extrude tubes or whatever !

PETN doesnt work as a plasticizer unfortunately (Urbanski again).




The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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