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Author: Subject: Is Peroxide in Ethanol and issue for distillation?
Syn the Sizer
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[*] posted on 26-7-2020 at 10:12
Is Peroxide in Ethanol and issue for distillation?


A couple days ago my friends mom brought me 750ml of hand sanitizer from a local brewery. The denatured ethanol contains 80% ethanol, water, glycerine and as featuring agents H2O2.

For distillation should I reduce the peroxide to H2O or will it affect the overall distillation. I realize for some reactions it will be fine but all in all I don't want an oxidizer period in my solvent.

It's great the company sells 2.25L of the sanitizer locally for $50/CDN. I am surprised they can use just peroxide as a denaturing agent. People drink peroxide in 30% conc. and the highest this could possibly be is 20% and I am sure it is much much lower since there is also water and glycerine, Glycerine is used in food production and many vape companies only use glycerine as a carrier since it is more natural than propylene glycol. So really it is more or less consumable anyway.
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B(a)P
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[*] posted on 26-7-2020 at 17:16


According to the WHO, 'Hydrogen peroxide: is used to inactivate contaminating bacterial spores in the solution and is not an active substance for hand antisepsis'
https://www.who.int/gpsc/5may/Guide_to_Local_Production.pdf
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Syn the Sizer
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[*] posted on 26-7-2020 at 19:03


So heating it with the ethanol and glycerin won't oxidize anything to unwanted byproducts?
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B(a)P
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[*] posted on 26-7-2020 at 21:20


In the correct proportions glycerine and peroxide can form an explosive liquid.
Take a look at the patent.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2452074A/en
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markx
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[*] posted on 26-7-2020 at 22:36


Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer  
People drink peroxide in 30% conc. and the highest this could possibly be is 20% and I am sure it is much much lower since there is also water and glycerine.


Ahem.....if one ventures to drink 30% peroxide then I can guarantee that this is a one time attempt and a surefire way to the ER or morgue. 30ish concentration when spilled on your fingers shall instantly turn the skin white and leave burn like symptoms, so I can only imagine what happens to the mucous membranes in mouth, throat and asophagus.
The concentrations used for medical purposes like wound sanitation are 3-5% as a rule of thumb, so I doubt the sanitizer formulation has much higher content.
There are many catalysts that tend to decompose hydrogen peroxide quite effectively: manganese compounds and platinum group metals e.g. I suggest you try using one of them to decompose the peroxide content prior to distillation attempts.




Exact science is a figment of imagination.......
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XeonTheMGPony
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[*] posted on 27-7-2020 at 03:31


they they add it to water. 2 drips of 35% H2O2 magically will turn water into a cure for every thing, same as shoving a large crystal up your rear, doing a jig and sacrificing a chicken will.

When you make it up as you go any thing is possible!

other wise as the heat builds most of the peroxide should be consumed fairly fast, I say 2 distillations should get it pretty pure.
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Syn the Sizer
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[*] posted on 27-7-2020 at 05:26


Believe me, I know all about peroxide burns, I had a thread specifically about comparing acid to peroxide, but there are people who drink 3mL shots of the 30% strength. I don't know how they do it, but they do.

Edit:

A forum member in my old thread even talked about their relative taking several drops a day.

https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=15...

Thank you Xeon, I wasn't sure if it would be destroyed because I have seen it concentrated by heating.

[Edited on 27-7-2020 by Syn the Sizer]
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CarlSagans_RayGuns
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[*] posted on 27-7-2020 at 08:57


I have had some success with dry yeast. Just pour a packet into the container and let it react with the hydrogen peroxide for a couple of days then distill.
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Herr Haber
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[*] posted on 27-7-2020 at 09:33


Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer  
So heating it with the ethanol and glycerin won't oxidize anything to unwanted byproducts?


The H2O2 has decomposed by the time the hand sanitizer gets to you.
In WHO's recipe it's only use is to sterilize the containers in which you'll put your solution.
They basically say to fill smaller bottles as soon as done so it can still have an effect. Of course, if you can provide sterile containers there's no need for this.




The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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Syn the Sizer
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[*] posted on 27-7-2020 at 14:33


Awesome, thanks for all the input.
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Morgan
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[*] posted on 27-7-2020 at 16:55


Seems like if you had a bottle with 75% ethanol and the remainder water, that that would by itself create a sterile enough environment without the need for peroxide in a bottle of hand sanitizer. But maybe some bacteria or viruses are more hardy?

[Edited on 28-7-2020 by Morgan]
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[*] posted on 28-7-2020 at 07:42


I believe that is the case, some bacteria may be resistant to ethanol and peroxide ensures their death.
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Morgan
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[*] posted on 28-7-2020 at 12:19


I was reading some WHO formulations and rational just now.

Formulation I
To produce final concentrations of ethanol 80% v/v, glycerol 1.45% v/v, hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) 0.125% v/v.

ethanol 96% v/v, 833.3 ml
H2O2 3%, 41.7 ml
glycerol 98%,14.5 ml
Top up the flask to 1000 ml with distilled water or water that has been boiled and cooled; shake the flask gently to mix the content.

Or
isopropyl alcohol (with a purity of 99.8%), 751.5 ml
H2O2 3%, 41.7 ml
glycerol 98%, 14.5 ml


12.1.2.5. H2O2
While alcohol is the active component in the formulations, certain aspects of other components should be respected. All raw materials used should be preferably free of viable bacterial spores. The low concentration of H2O2 is incorporated in the formulations to help eliminate contaminating spores in the bulk solutions and excipients501,502 and is not an active substance for hand antisepsis. While the use of H2O2 adds an important safety aspect, the use of 3–6% of H2O2 for the production might be complicated by its corrosive nature and by difficult procurement in some countries. Further investigation is needed to assess H2O2 availability in different countries as well as the possibility of using a stock solution with a lower concentration.

12.1.6. Distribution
To avoid contamination with spore-forming organisms,338 disposable bottles should preferably be used although reusable sterilizable bottles may reduce production costs and waste management. To prevent evaporation, containers should have a maximum capacity of 500 ml on ward and 1 litre in operating theatres, and possibly fit into a wall dispenser. Leakage-free pocket bottles with a capacity of no more than 100 ml should also be available and distributed individually to HCWs, but it should be emphasized that the use of these products should be confined to health care only. The production or re-filling unit should follow norms on how to clean and disinfect the bottles (e.g. autoclaving, boiling, or chemical disinfection with chlorine). Autoclaving is considered the most suitable procedure. Reusable bottles should never be refilled until they have been completely emptied and then cleansed and disinfected.

Cleansing and disinfection process for reusable handrub bottles: empty bottles should be brought to a central point to be reprocessed using standard operating procedures. Bottles should be thoroughly washed with detergent and tap water to eliminate any residual liquid. If they are heat-resistant, bottles should be thermally disinfected by boiling in water. Whenever possible, thermal disinfection should be chosen in preference to chemical disinfection, since chemical disinfection might not only increase costs but also needs an extra step to flush out the remains of the disinfectant. Chemical disinfection should include soaking the bottles in a solution containing 1000 ppm of chlorine for a minimum of 15 minutes and then rinsing with sterile/cooled boiled water.505 After thermal or chemical disinfection, bottles should be left to dry completely upside-down, in a bottle rack. Dry bottles should be closed with a lid and stored, protected from dust, until use.

WHO-recommended handrub formulations
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK144054/

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Herr Haber
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[*] posted on 28-7-2020 at 13:41


Quote: Originally posted by Morgan  
Seems like if you had a bottle with 75% ethanol and the remainder water, that that would by itself create a sterile enough environment without the need for peroxide in a bottle of hand sanitizer. But maybe some bacteria or viruses are more hardy?

[Edited on 28-7-2020 by Morgan]


You missed one ;)
Ethanol takes care of those but not of spores.




The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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Morgan
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[*] posted on 28-7-2020 at 16:50


Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
Quote: Originally posted by Morgan  
Seems like if you had a bottle with 75% ethanol and the remainder water, that that would by itself create a sterile enough environment without the need for peroxide in a bottle of hand sanitizer. But maybe some bacteria or viruses are more hardy?

[Edited on 28-7-2020 by Morgan]


You missed one ;)
Ethanol takes care of those but not of spores.


Spores are sneaky yes.

Discussion
Alcohol-based hand sanitizers play a crucial role in protecting healthcare personnel and patients from acquisition of pathogens [1]. However, current hand sanitizer formulations have no activity against bacterial spores produced by pathogens such as Clostridium difficile and Bacillus anthracis [8–10].
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4503543/#!po=54...

[Edited on 29-7-2020 by Morgan]
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