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Author: Subject: Real sassafras oil from roots!
karlos³
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[*] posted on 21-10-2020 at 05:43


Quote: Originally posted by zed  

I'm thinking that the world's output of Cialis, is greater than its output of X.

I remain still somewhat doubtful about.
Cialis got quite popular even under younger people who don't need it at all(but it is still great, no doubt), and under that part of the population, taking both isn't uncommon.

Now lets do the math, cialis 20mg, that should suffice well.
But MDMA? People take somewhere between 6-10x as much(ok we're talking about men only, lets say 8-12x as much), and then consider the mass of piperonal in tadalafil and the mass of the piperonal moiety in MDMA.
Cialis is taken in much lower amounts, and, I estimate now, consists only to ~1/4th out of piperonal,
MDMA is taken in ten times as large amounts, and consists to around ~1/2 out of the piperonal moiety.

I am not sure that people really use more of the latter, but neither convinced of cialis being the leader of that race, and if definitely not with a huge advance.
It could be really close I would think.
Definitely if we judge on which drug uses up more piperonal, although its obviously problematic with one of them being produced illegaly.

But if you meant with output the number of produced pills... well then its clearly cialis, no doubt about this :P
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Corrosive Joeseph
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[*] posted on 21-10-2020 at 06:17


Quote:


Tadalafil was approved for medical use in the United States in 2003. It is available as a generic medication in the United States and United Kingdom. In 2017, it was the 282nd most commonly prescribed medication in the United States, with more than one million prescriptions.



I don't know about the US, but where I live, doctors will not prescribe more than 4 pills per prescription.

And when I was younger, it was estimtaed that 1 million ecstacy tablets were being dropped every weekend in the UK alone (population, about 50 million)

I would guess ecstacy is not nearly as popular as it was back then, and nor is it in the US, although, 20 years later, there are more people in the world. Pandemic aside, and given 'normal' conditions, I would say waaaay more E's are dropped than Cialis.


/CJ




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[*] posted on 21-10-2020 at 08:04






I’d say the world definitely uses more MDMA than any safrole derived LEGAL medications. By a long shot.

Remember that the market for MDMA is extremely lucrative, and the demand is higher than ever. It can be produced in mass quantities and is shipped all over the world. MDMA production, distribution, and usage doesnt have to abide by government standards in the way that legal medications do.

You cant simply ship however much medication you want anywhere to anyone in any quantity. It’s regulated, recorded, and inspected. With MDMA people use however much they want whenever they want, they aren’t bound by prescription limits.

It’s tempting to say that interception of shipments combats this, but the reality is that as agents inspecting mail high five eachother over a 100 kilogram seizure, 10 times that probably slips right past.

There’s no stopping the drug trade, it just keeps on chugging along with a momentum that only the ignorant believe can be slowed. Even the biggest of busts only slow it down by the amount a penny on a railroad track would slow down a freight train going full speed

[Edited on 21-10-2020 by chemist1243]
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[*] posted on 21-10-2020 at 08:12


MDMA is great, but it isnt worth risking your life over. There are many other compounds out there. Unless you are set up for large scale synthesis, you wont make much money anyway. Look into methylone if it is legal where you are. They are pretty similar and you can import kilograms for a few thousand. I prefer MDA much more over MDMA. I had the best experience of my life on MDA.

Anyway, have you considered the piperonal route over killing a ton of sassafras trees for a few drops? You can import the 3,4-dihydroxybenzaldehyde for very cheap.

That is a good yield of the oil though. Must have been very oily.

All the best and be careful!

[Edited on 21-10-2020 by ChemichaelRXN]




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[*] posted on 21-10-2020 at 08:32


I agree. You should risk your freedom and life for nothing. I see pure MDMA as a relatively safe compound, however it defiantly can spiral into a crippling addiction or worse. As always, use caution whenever trying out any substance - legal or not.

Regarding the piperonal routes, while agree mass deforestation is a huge negative consequence of MDMA production, i simply cant help but disagree on the route. safrole is just the number 1 best precursor for MDMA. It’s extremely notorious for its reliability, high yields, and ease.

You cant expect people to switch to a route which is almost never talked about and even more rarely put to practice or written about. Besides, sassafras grows like weeds where i live, so its not really like I’m degrading an entire ecosystem of endangered trees. In fact I’d say i did less harm to the environment getting that rootbark than i would’ve done buying dihydroxy benzaldehyde from a manufacturer who is slowly polluting the environment by industrial production.
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[*] posted on 21-10-2020 at 11:29
Update


Ive had a minor set back in determining the oil content of my rootbark. I spilled some oil, so i have to redo the experiment if i want accurate results. I was hoping to finish up by tommorow however now I’m thinking its gonna be more like Friday or Saturday.

I apologize to anyone who was eager to hear the results.
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[*] posted on 21-10-2020 at 19:57


You should try extracting the hydrosol with ether after collecting the oil droplets. You could probably increase your yield a little that way.



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[*] posted on 21-10-2020 at 22:28


Quote: Originally posted by chemist1243  
I agree. You should risk your freedom and life for nothing.


Do not give the evil rich people the satisfaction of being a helpless prison slave. Do not give the cops their sick satisfaction of handcuffing a helpless kid. The best time to use illegal drugs is when you're a terminal illness patient or getting old and close to death, in which case you won't live to suffer the legal consequences anyway.

[Edited on 10-22-2020 by Cou]




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[*] posted on 22-10-2020 at 03:24


Quote: Originally posted by ChemichaelRXN  
MDMA is great, but it isnt worth risking your life over.
[Edited on 21-10-2020 by ChemichaelRXN]


I would like to start by saying my organic chemistry knowledge is embarrassingly lacking, so forgive my uninformed questions.
As a reagent, does sassafras oil have a use other than the production of MDMA?
I am curious, because I have seen a few posts where it is sort after, including this one and the end goal isn't really described.
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[*] posted on 22-10-2020 at 05:51


Excellent question. Safrole is a precursor to many pharmaceuticals like the aforementioned talafadil, and its also used to make pesticides like piperonal butoxide. Most of the time the starting chemical is not safrole, but actually piperonal which is made from safrole.

Sadly, due to MDMA production combined with industrial demand for piperonal-based pesticides, the sassafras tree native to many south East Asian countries is slowly going extinct.

Hopefully ways to make piperonal synthetically such as the dihydroxy benzaldehyde route will be studied and optimized to be easy and cheap in the near future, but even then you’d still have people cutting down the trees for MDMA.

This isn’t a drug synthesis fourm, so i dont want to muck up the waters for myself talking about my intentions. Let’s just say the safrole i have wont end up in rave or traded for money, but more likely in a sealed vial in a locked box along side other sealed vials. The end goal isn’t the substance, its the feeling you get from making everything work using minimal resources, thats the high that I’ve been chasing for the longest time now.

[Edited on 22-10-2020 by chemist1243]
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[*] posted on 22-10-2020 at 11:55


Well pirating trees in the rainforest is popular in third world countries. It damages the forests and may be threatening extinctions. I don't know. It is a source of spot-cash-money, for folks that are desparately poor. To them, it's just some tree in the forest, while their children at home are hungry and need to eat.

But, Cinnamomum Camphora, is in no danger in the U.S.. It is fairly common, and it is considered an invasive species. Go to Southern California, Texas, or Florida... Lots of trees. The percentage of safrole in the wood is small, but an older tree weighs thousands and thousands of pounds.

As for Safrole being the most straight-forward route to the ketone... No, I don't believe that is necessarily
true. But, Heliotropin and Nitroethane, are far more difficult to acquire.
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[*] posted on 22-10-2020 at 12:17


Well, your right. Most of these people are not hardened criminals, they are just poor workers trying to support a life for their family while being exploited and underpayed by the criminal organizations who employ them. A large amount of safrole for MDMA production actually is from camphor trees, particularly “brown camphor oil” which is the safrole fraction of camphor wood oil. This camphor oil comes from Asia though, not the south.

On a lighter note, I’m almost finished distilling the bark, and i may even be able to post yield results by tonight. No promises, but I’m very close. Ill update when its ready.

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[*] posted on 22-10-2020 at 13:39
UPDATE: results



Starting amount: 112g of fleshy moist sassafras rootbark
Yield of sassafras oil: 2.2g
% yield: 1.96%

Commentary:

The yield is only about 2% before drying. Pretty shabby, but thats the way it is. The oil from this batch was much more viscous than my last batch. It was closer in consistency to olive oil or vegetable oil than the sassafras oil i know and love.

You can see in one of the photos i attach, the is clumps of oily solid. That’s what it looks like when drying micro quantities of oil, its just painful to look at all the oil left behind and lost. You could just make the whole thing an acetone solution, but thats no fun. This oil loss is why its more efficient to save up a lot of undried oil and then dry it all together. You’ll lose a lot if you dont. Then again, drying is optional but preferred.

If you oil is cloudy like mine in the other photo, then you got some magnesium sulfate still in there from the drying step. Vacuum filtration would probably be best to remove this.



Now my whole lab smells like sassafras :D



C5150365-98D5-4F46-B326-0AFA63F25D29.jpeg - 1.5MB4D691EAF-0545-4DB5-A83F-F699ADB72EF4.jpeg - 1.5MB
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[*] posted on 22-10-2020 at 13:59


Why not extract with ether, dry the ethereal solution, then decant and evaporate? You’ll lose a lot less oil that way since whatever liquid is left stuck to the drying agent will be some % of oil in ether instead of 100% oil.

And to reiterate my earlier question since it was not answered, did you try extracting the hydrosol to recover more oil? I’m curious to see how much this would increase your yield.




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[*] posted on 22-10-2020 at 14:16


Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P  
As a reagent, does sassafras oil have a use other than the production of MDMA?
MD-benzyl is common building block in drug design. Just go to aldrich or other chem seller an search for substructure like it, you'll find plenty of results.

drugbank.com find 77 products, marketed pharmaceuticals or pharmacological compound with this moiety.




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[*] posted on 22-10-2020 at 18:17


Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)  
Why not extract with ether, dry the ethereal solution, then decant and evaporate? You’ll lose a lot less oil that way since whatever liquid is left stuck to the drying agent will be some % of oil in ether instead of 100% oil.

And to reiterate my earlier question since it was not answered, did you try extracting the hydrosol to recover more oil? I’m curious to see how much this would increase your yield.


No, i have not tried any ways to recover any oil from the hydrosol that may be lost. To me, it is not worth the effort for such a small amount of oil gained in return. I would be glad to send you some sassafras hydrosol if you are willing to experiment with it and post the results yourself, though.

As for the drying step; it wont hurt your yield much as long as you’re drying >10ml quantities of oil. I measured the oils weight before drying, so actually the yield i measured is theoretically too high, but only by 10’s of milligrams.




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[*] posted on 25-10-2020 at 09:07


If one where to increase yields by extracting the hydrosol, what solvent would be best to try?
Not only safrole, for most aromatic essential oils that are extracted by steam distillation.
Would DCM work good for hydrosol extraction?
Its low boiling point make it easily removed and i have some of it i can use.
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[*] posted on 25-10-2020 at 09:13


Chloroform, DCM, diethyl ether would all work. Safrole is miscible with pretty much all organic non-polar solvents. DCM could prove a little tricky as it tends to form emultions sometimes, but provided you have a way to deal with it (usually a bit of brine and time) it's suitable. In one episode of Hamilton's Pharmacopeia the chemists used a... vibrator. Whatever works.
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[*] posted on 25-10-2020 at 11:41


I repeat, extracting the hydrosol is not worth it, its too bad soluble in water.

chemist1234, you keep talking about deforestation regarding piperonal.
I may be wrong, but I am quite sure that most of the piperonal used in the industry today is made from lignin, similar to vanillin.
They go in that case via catechol I think, which really is a dirt cheap process.

The stuff made from isosafrole, pepper or whatever, is opposed to this much more expensive, but those who use this in their products do so because they can write "made from 100% natural ingredients" according to customer protection laws on their products, giving them a huge increase in sales and thus worth to them to be used instead of the cheap material.

So, piperonal comes not from deforestation, but from deforestation(of any kind of trees) comes piperonal(and vanillin and so on).
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[*] posted on 25-10-2020 at 15:11


Karlos3, I imagine the OP was thinking of the havoc done this tree in Cambodia.



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[*] posted on 25-10-2020 at 23:08


Ouch! They throw everything together in this article, speak of a rare tree which camphor isn't, of sassafras oil which is wrong too, and so on...
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[*] posted on 26-10-2020 at 10:11


But the common Cinnamon camphora tree dont have a high% safrole.
Cinnamon camphora is a quite common tree growing in many parts of the world.
Its the high yielding cinnamon variants that are harvested and becoming very rare now.
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[*] posted on 26-10-2020 at 11:39


Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  
I repeat, extracting the hydrosol is not worth it, its too bad soluble in water.

Is that so for the hydrosol of other phenylpropanoids too or just in the case of safrole?
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[*] posted on 28-10-2020 at 11:16


Quote: Originally posted by Mateo_swe  
Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  
I repeat, extracting the hydrosol is not worth it, its too bad soluble in water.

Is that so for the hydrosol of other phenylpropanoids too or just in the case of safrole?


Look up the solubility of said phenylpropanoid(aka; UTFSE) and you’ll find out. :)
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[*] posted on 28-10-2020 at 11:32


The solubility isn’t the only relevant factor. If your hydrosol is cloudy then you have an emulsion, and there is probably more oil hiding in there than you would expect to be soluble, as microscopic, immiscible droplets.

Maybe it still wouldn’t be a significant amount, but it would be nice to see someone try it. With other essential oils I have extracted that are practically insoluble in water, such as limonene, it has helped significantly.




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