Achilles
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chemical production of ozone
i want to produce ozone chemically no matter the cost of the reagents i will not use an electric arc to produce 3g/h of ozone under pure oxygen waste,
this is un incredibly low yield and a scam but its just personal hate.
in internet ive found many ways..
manganese heptoxide with thermal decomposition the problem is the sudden release of high volumes of gas and strong heat and im worried that the heat
will just break down the ozone.
conc. permanganic acid and hydrogen peroxide is said to release ozone ive tested it and no ozone just oxygen…
but piranha solution when boiling seems to release something very irritating even in high space open area.. it could be ozone or just hydrogen
peroxide vapors?
anyway any suggestions?
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unionised
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People who use ozone for real-life applications like water purification, produce it electrically.
If there were more efficient ways to do it, they would use them.
Do you think they are stupid?
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Achilles
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Quote: Originally posted by unionised  | People who use ozone for real-life applications like water purification, produce it electrically.
If there were more efficient ways to do it, they would use them.
Do you think they are stupid?
|
they use that because i suspect it is way cheaper as an industrial process like producing chlorine by electrolisis…
no procedure is as the same as the industrial one for a lab one. i just said im ready to sacrifice money to have a chemical one
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Rainwater
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Your frustration could be related to the quality of your appratus. The cheap little gadgets, can produce ozone, but do not have the surface area
needed for "efficient" conversion. Don't expect more than 5-10% electrical efficiency for a top quality device
The surface area of your cermaic dielectric will be a major factor.
The tube in tube appratus seam to be a popular design, (at least the 9ne that needs the most fixing)
I dont have any literature but have rebuild several, the trend is short tubes with multiple inserts and high voltages.
Biggest issue is dust settling on the conductive layer forcing the corona to consentrate in one spot and produce arcing,
Edit: preview/post error
Most industrial applications do not use pure o2, but dried air under increased pressure, 1-1.5atm.
The flow rate, humidity and O3 concentration all effect the output.
Ideally you don't want to introduce any product into the reactor.
By recirculating the output into H2SO4, O3 can be accumulated in the liquid then boiled out in a seperate stage. This is usually done continuously.
A good o3 setup is not cheap for large scale.
But the basic operation can be scaled down to lab size and might fulfill your requirments
[Edited on 2-10-2023 by Rainwater]
"You can't do that" - challenge accepted
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clearly_not_atara
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IIRC ozone is produced by the reaction of fluorine gas with water under certain conditions.
Of course this is not practical or safe.
[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
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Jenks
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If it is the inefficiency of wasting oxygen, not electricity, that is the problem, the oxygen could be recirculated after removing the ozone with
sulfuric acid. Ozone can be produced by electrolysis of water using a higher voltage than used to produce only hydrogen and oxygen.
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vanBassum
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AFAIK, a lot of ozone can be made using PbO2 anodes. When making perchlorate, I noticed the distinctive smell of ozone near the end.
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Chem Science
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An old book of mine has these experiments as chemical methods of ozone production
I] ELECTROLISIS OF SULFURIC ACID SOLUTION
It claims that concentrated solutions of sulfuric acid upon electrolisis generates oxygen and ozone.
II] POTASIUM PERMANGANTE AND SULFURIC ACID
A little pile of powdered KMnO4, with a coouple of drops of water and 4 mL of 98% H2SO4 generates Ozone
III] BARIUM PEROXIDE AND SULFURIC ACID
Concentrated sulfuric acid driping in barium peroxide generates ozone.
I may try some of these, seems interesting 
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Sulaiman
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I've done ii) a few times, the bulk of gas evolved is oxygen with trace ammounts of ozone.
Given that you will be producing Mn2O7 which is an incredibly powerful oxidiser and a sensitive explosive,
other paths should be considered for ozone generation.
PS. I've read that permanganate plus sulphuric plus hydrogen peroxide produces significant quantities of ozone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese_heptoxide
(at the end of the section "Synthesis and reactions")
Also, use plastic ware, not glassware, due to explosion risk.
[Edited on 6-10-2023 by Sulaiman]
CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur
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SnailsAttack
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| Quote: Originally posted by Achilles | | but piranha solution when boiling seems to release something very irritating even in high space open area.. it could be ozone or just hydrogen
peroxide vapors? |
most likely just aerosolized particles of sulphuric acid
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clearly_not_atara
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I do remember once seeing the equation:
2 KO2 + H2SO4 >> O3 + K2SO4 + H2O
which aside from being cute, I can sort of draw a little diagram with arrow-pushing and a five-membered ring transition for two molecules of hydrogen
superoxide becoming water and ozone. But whether this makes any sense I suspect not. It would seem that the more favorable 5-membered ring is oriented
the other way to give hydrogen peroxide and oxygen.
But it turns out someone had a better idea:
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja980887n
"Ozone is formed in good yields by reacting O2+ [dioxygenyl] salts with water in HF at -78 C"
Well, it's a little bit milder than the fluorine method, I suppose? 
[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
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Neal
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Nobody said anything about a UV-C lamp? At 185 nm.
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symboom
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Microscale production of ozone from sulfuric acid electrolysis
https://youtu.be/Jrd_qQWl8b0?si=__9xU_mZsKR7EIab
Quote
AFAIK, a lot of ozone can be made using PbO2 anodes. When making perchlorate, I noticed the distinctive smell of ozone near the end.
Quote
remember once seeing the equation:
2 KO2 + H2SO4 >> O3 + K2SO4 + H2O
Quote
Nobody said anything about a UV-C lamp? At 185 nm.
Quote
ELECTROLISIS OF SULFURIC ACID SOLUTION
It claims that concentrated solutions of sulfuric acid upon electrolisis generates oxygen and ozone.
II] POTASIUM PERMANGANTE AND SULFURIC ACID
A little pile of powdered KMnO4, with a coouple of drops of water and 4 mL of 98% H2SO4 generates Ozone
III] BARIUM PEROXIDE AND SULFURIC ACID
Concentrated sulfuric acid driping in barium peroxide generates ozone.
[Edited on 2-11-2023 by symboom]
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Texium
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Thread Moved
1-11-2023 at 07:13 |
symboom
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Another reaction of high ozone output but messy is sodium plumbate with lead dioxide and platnium
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Neal
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From a Northwestern University paper that came out Sept.
And under certain conditions, when NO2 interacts with sunlight, it can also produce ground-level ozone,
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RU_KLO
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potassium persulfate + diluted acid (in the paper HClO4) but also H2SO4 is mentioned:
"The effect of pH on the source of the oxygen liberated from 0.1 M potassium persulfate solutions at 90° and 50° is given in Table v. The oxygen
liberated from dilute acid solutions of persulfate contained ozone as evidenced by the odor of the gas and by the action of the gas on starch iodide
paper."
by dilute they mean 2M HClO4.
source: "The Chemistry of Persulfate. I. The Kinetics and Mechanism of the decomposition of the Persulfate Ion in Aqueous Medium"
BY I. M. KOLTHOFAFN D I. K. MILLER^
Go SAFE, because stupidity and bad Luck exist.
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Texium
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| Quote: Originally posted by Achilles | | Quote: Originally posted by unionised | People who use ozone for real-life applications like water purification, produce it electrically.
If there were more efficient ways to do it, they would use them.
Do you think they are stupid?
|
they use that because i suspect it is way cheaper as an industrial process like producing chlorine by electrolisis…
no procedure is as the same as the industrial one for a lab one. i just said im ready to sacrifice money to have a chemical one
|
People who use ozone in the lab also use electric ozone generators for their reactions. They aren't stupid
either. Oxygen and electricity are cheap, it's reliable, and it produces sufficient amounts for small scale reactions. No need to reinvent the wheel
on this one. I can assure you Big Ozone is not hiding more efficient chemical routes from us.
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