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Author: Subject: Tragedy In Brazil (Rio School)
quicksilver
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[*] posted on 7-4-2011 at 09:15
Tragedy In Brazil (Rio School)


The shooting in a Brazilian school had so many similar points regarding American school tragedies of the same nature - it becomes even more vital to look at the impact that absence of appropriate mental health treatment makes rather than focusing attention at the object or extraneous elements in addressing these issues.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2011/04/201147135...

Much too often wealthy countries avoid the need for addressing REASONS that tragedies occur & is within their grasp to make a vital difference. In Brazil the need for appropriate mental health care has gone unaddressed; just as it has in the USA. So often wealthy countries have the means to address the issues occurring domestically but have avoided doing so. Brazil is a very wealthy country but just as within the US & AUS, there has been a "social poverty" in addressing the needs of those "in the shadows".

In the USA we have made the mistake of not addressing those needs in that two things initially occur. The tragedy & often, loss of life serve to bring this to the attention of the public for a time but no REAL change is made. Those old enough to remember a wonderfully gifted Jazz Bassist, Jaco Pastorious (who died in 1987) was eventually diagnosed with a bi-polar disorder. Currently we have a much LESS gifted entertainer, Charlie Sheen, who is OBVIOUSLY in great need of mental health care.....but what happens? We either pander to, or make money from the individual and the needed care goes unaddressed.
Sheen is a damn good example of the public's reaction to those with serious mental health disorders. He is also a fine barometer of he public's reaction to seeing just what this is in a public venue.
But what have we done? We have fed his narcissistic & hedonistic impulses, even though we often condemn the obvious disparity of this marginal actor making millions from [essentially] his problems. We buy tickets to his rambling public tirades while at the same time we recognize this is a woman beating, ego-centric child who is simply on a manic-phase episode after self medicating for months or years at a time.

It's time the public stop watching train wrecks in motion & call a spade, a spade. It says a great deal about the way we treat those who DON'T have the money and fame of a marginal actor They do NOT have vampires attempting to make a last dollar out of the sugar-daddy; they just get ignored.
UNTIL something like a serious tragedy occurs and then we seem to recognize the issue MAY have been prevented!

We have lost too many lives from violence, too many gifted talents have self-destructed for us not to begin to deal with this issue in a more productive manner.

Charlie Sheen will most likely not get any help. One of the reasons for this is that we have also allowed mental health issues to become mediums for public entertainment. The classic example in the USA is the airing of a TV show called "Celebrity Rehab". The vampire of this mockery has publicly chosen to dialog Sheen's illness and thus created an emotional backlash from the actor, who will most likely never allow this "TV Doctor" (Drew Pinski) to have a level of power over him by seeking treatment.
We have almost become a classical Rome with our dalliance in this mockery of "help". Surly we are better than this? And if not; we will continually reap what we have sown. no amount of "band-aid" stop-gap measures and window dressing will intervene.



[Edited on 7-4-2011 by quicksilver]




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cnidocyte
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[*] posted on 8-4-2011 at 00:48


I don't know about Charlie Sheen but I have a bit of an idea whats behind school shootings. Students are forced to conform to some system of standards but some students are incapable of conforming to this system and develop a host of mental issues as a result of observing their inability to do so. In my honest opinion the source of the problem is the schools themselves. Schools aren't about education, they're about indoctrination.
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[*] posted on 8-4-2011 at 05:21


Quote: Originally posted by cnidocyte  
I don't know about Charlie Sheen but I have a bit of an idea whats behind school shootings. Students are forced to conform to some system of standards but some students are incapable of conforming to this system and develop a host of mental issues as a result of observing their inability to do so. In my honest opinion the source of the problem is the schools themselves. Schools aren't about education, they're about indoctrination.


In what manner? Could you elaborate a bit? Is there something so wrong with the system that it severely "over the top" in terms of stress on the students?




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Sedit
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[*] posted on 8-4-2011 at 05:51


Perhaps it has to do not with mental illness but the use of medication thats causing the shootings. The school/public mass shootings in the states started with the use of SSRI's and gets stranger with every new one on the market so perhaps Brazil is just catching up with good ol' fashion US medication.




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[*] posted on 8-4-2011 at 07:14


The medication issue is a powerfully important one. TTBoMK back in the 80's, before there were these rainbow SSRI's bi-polar disorder were commonly treated w/ Lithium or depending upon the cycle and the elements of the individual's issues (slow cycle or uni-polar mania, etc) Today, the level of prescriptions of SSRI's is staggering. Some people avoid psychiatry because they feel that it's a simple "shotgun approach" to medication regime & the potential for inappropriate SSRI prescribing appears high. The associated problems ( w/ SSRI's) can be quite serious.
Brain chemistry like anything else is a potentially treacherous venue when a little knowledge can be more damaging than none at all. Do we really understand how the brain works well enough to tamper with the mechanism in any but the most careful manner?




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[*] posted on 8-4-2011 at 09:34


When kids were going to school on acid and weed there weren't any school shootings- it was all peace and love baby. But seriously, let's see: the infamous Colorado shooting had an agent provocateur involved that nobody wants to talk about .. and it occurred at a highly political moment. So I've eliminated that one in my thinking. I think SSRI's are given to address largely environmental issues like too much sugar, industrial, hormone-like chemicals in the water supplies, artificial colors ... the things that cause ADD and confuse the bodyandmind impulses. Teens would be the most vulnerable. All that and a breakdown in the family structure. Our streets are littered with punked out drugged out kids that have been booted out of the house or left because mom/dad are meth freaks or junkies. Thank your government for all of it.



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[*] posted on 8-4-2011 at 10:02


There are so many factors...
First there are more people in the world than there used to be
so if the event probability remained the same we would see
more of these events simply because there are more people.
Second, stress levels have gone up simply because there
are more people and the fixed resources must be divided
among more people. In the 1930s few went to college, now
most need to and some are probably not suited to it.

Based on what I see from my high-school age kids, the
schools are doing a better job than when I was growing up in the 60s. Kids have more ways to express themselves. They now realize "bullying" can do grave psychological harm and while people like to make fun of "political correctness" it does make for a more civil world. However as mentioned above
the amount of school work kids need to do has increased.

Psych drugs are over prescribed. In some cases this makes things worse (for example SSRIs given to someone with low dopamine produces a restless feeling that can cause them to commit suicide). But overall things are probably better than they used to be. Another good thing is that much of the stigma about seeing a psychiatrist has been removed so more are likely to seek help.

The TV and film media is definitely worse than ever. Reality TV is very mean spirited does "make sport" of people with mental illness. Violence on TV and in the movies has become increasingly intense and realistic, and it must have some desensitizing effect. (Ask a teenage to watch an exciting
film from the 60s and watch how quickly they get bored).
There is also a "subtle effect". TV constantly presents us
with a world of beautiful people, living exciting lives saying witty things. Real life can never be this good, and this could produce frustration in some people.

Statistically these events are extremely rare and mental problems are quite common in our society. I don't think it will be possible to develop a "screening procedure".

Making guns "disappear" would limit the damage these
individuals could inflict but there are so many guns that
a determined person is likely to get one anyway.
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[*] posted on 8-4-2011 at 11:27


Our jails are our mental hospitals. Policy is to aggravate mental patients' conditions, rather than to treat them.

People only poke caged crazed dogs with sticks before dogfights. I wonder why...




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[*] posted on 8-4-2011 at 11:54


Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
Perhaps it has to do not with mental illness but the use of medication thats causing the shootings. The school/public mass shootings in the states started with the use of SSRI's and gets stranger with every new one on the market so perhaps Brazil is just catching up with good ol' fashion US medication.

I just downloaded a bunch of BBC documentaries by a guy named Louis Theroux and one of them was about medicated kids. It seems like white middle class parents have forgotten that kids are supposed to be hyperactive. All these kids get labelled with ADHD and prescribed psychoactive meds. Pretty fucked up if you ask me. Personally I think it's the parents who need to take a chill pill, smoke a joint or just let their kids be kids.

<iframe sandbox title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iCbOQcsGwRE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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[*] posted on 8-4-2011 at 14:14


Thank you for posting that short flick; it was very significant. Those of us with children may would question where the "normal adjustments to growing up" end and a "diagnosis" begins. I supposed I would never know the whole story with the boy in the video but it seems the parents may have over reacted to a child being a bit dramatic and attention seeking.
The fact that child can have a discussion about the issue is enlightening; especially what he says in that regard. Over-reacting to issues may be as problematic as not helping at all. TTBoMK SSRI's & several other meds are actually NOT recommended for developing children. The brain is still in a formative stage.....
That they would give the dog meds is pretty damn reveling (IMO).




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[*] posted on 9-4-2011 at 07:40


Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver  

In what manner? Could you elaborate a bit? Is there something so wrong with the system that it severely "over the top" in terms of stress on the students?


Well I'm thinking back to when I was 13 and was just starting secondary school. I have trouble processing auditory information and as a result I could never follow what a teacher was saying and always did terrible in school despite trying my hardest to get myself up to par with everyone else. I was getting depressed thinking about the fact I had to look forward to another 6 years of that and when I heard about school shootings I liked the idea because it seemed like a way to retaliate against the whole system. Luckily for me I took a different route and just stopped caring about school altogether and gained respect from my peers since I became the class troublemaker but I don't think its beyond the realms of possibility that people who don't find a similar way to escape the feeling of being trapped in that system may resort to an extreme, negative route like ending it all in a rampage in the school. Sorry I couldn't explain all that better but what I'm saying is that I've been at a point where I considered going on a rampage desirable so I'm not that surprised that some people actually do it. In my case it was the prospect of being trapped in the school system that had me depressed enough to consider something as insane as that. Kinda like a cornered dog, when the dog has no other options its not unlikely that it will take the violent option of retaliating against whatevers cornering it. I bet if the teachers stopped portraying school like it was so highly important and/or there was someone to tell the students that how you do in secondary school doesn't matter then they wouldn't be so highly stressed that they see a homicidal/suicidal rampage as something desirable. In my case I just stopped caring about school and all sorts of other life matters that had previously bothered me and I was suddenly freed from all that bullshit. Life became fun and I figured that the only thing worth fearing was death so any threats or punishments the teachers used to try and get me back in line were futile. If troubled students adopted this philosophy I bet they'd be freed of the majority of the stress that eats at them.

I think lifes pretty hard for teenagers between 13-16. When I was about 14 a guy casually said to me and my friend "I think I might slit my throat this weekend" and at the time I understood fully why he may want to kill himself and I felt a bit of relief hearing him say that cuz its something I'd considered a few times too. It was only at 15 that I decided to reject all the bullshit values that were fed to me from the day I was born and when I did that I was amazed at how everything in life changed for the better. This shift in mindset extended into all areas of my life. Naturally most of the teachers hated me since I became some kinda anti hero that showed all the other students the futility of the attempts of these petty authority figures to control me but that made school all the more fun. I still hated school right up to the day I was expelled but I never got stressed out about it ever again after I dropped all the values that they'd imposed on. Ironically I'm now one of the top students in my chemistry course at university and I got to this point with only 2 years of secondary school so I'm a living contradiction of the idea that how you do in secondary school determines whether or not you will succeed in higher level education.

[Edited on 9-4-2011 by cnidocyte]
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[*] posted on 9-4-2011 at 12:29


Congratulations on doing so much better, later on! I certainly agree that life can be a serious bastard for an adolescent. Generally, many people agree that part of one's life is a tough time. The simple fact that you can look back on that and express yourself is very important.
I believe that [often] it's very difficult for a person - at the stage of life we're talking about - to express themselves. There's a lot of pressure to "fit in" and a lot of "self induced" pressure to find one's way pretty quickly. However I think this has been with young adults through-out history. It's just that today we have more and varied means of communicating.




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[*] posted on 9-4-2011 at 13:42


Quote:
Schools aren't about education, they're about indoctrination.


LIFE is indoctrination, from the very beginning! We learn to speak a certain language, religion, social behavior etc - school is just an extension.
Personally I think classroom bullying, the nastiness of children/teens at times, is the biggest problem of all - as this is the root of all frustrations, insecurities, imbalances etc that follow, and take extremes at times. Teachers ought to look after kids in a parenting function as well, not just as teachers - in that they act as true mentors, and encourage morally acceptable (i.e. no bullying, sniding, etc) behavior. Certainly I've seen bullies being happily ignored by the teachers.
Anyway sooner or later we all (or most) have to tackle this- it's unfortuantly part of growing up. It is nice though, that as proper adults, a lot of these things go away!




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[*] posted on 9-4-2011 at 18:38


"There are so many factors...
First there are more people in the world than there used to be"

nobody wants to talk about overpopulation and the need for worldwide breeding restraint

"In the 1930s few went to college, now
most need to and some are probably not suited to it."

Too true


"..for example SSRIs given to someone with low dopamine produces a restless feeling that can cause them to commit suicide)..." This is a pet peeve -sacrificing grammar for political reasons based upon lack of understanding of the language structure.

"TV constantly presents us
with a world of beautiful people, living exciting lives saying witty things. Real life can never be this good, and this could produce frustration in some people."

This is only too true

"Making guns "disappear" would limit the damage these
individuals could inflict but there are so many guns that
a determined person is likely to get one anyway."

An unfortunately common liberal fallacy- blaming violence on the weapon. When this outlook was institutionalized in Britain the result was the empowerment of the physically strong and martially adept. Gun bans make bullies. They also secure the positions of despots.

America has become more violent as its middle class has disappeared. Periodic revolution was an ideal of America's founders. It's probably time for one.

These comments are not intended to disparage the author I quoted whom I respect for his thoughts and careful expression of them.




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[*] posted on 9-4-2011 at 19:30


i loved prozac it just makes me a bit uppidy and short tempered though.
i was on psych drugs since i was 13 long time.
i used to get in a lot of fights on prozac and lexapro too.
the guy that started this mass shooting business at UT austin was on dexedrine for depression so it all ties in to psych drugs.
the "illness" is the cause of all of this violence it can't be the drugs. of course not.
i think they call them crazy pills because they are designed to make you crazy so you'll twist off validating thier theory you need these drugs or different drugs.
it's all a big racket.
in places like some of these dirthole big cities violence is the norm i never set foot outside without a loaded 38 and a few more bullets, it becomes run of the mill everyday life.
it's competition for resources now the top 400 have more money than the bottom 150 million i say vote republican or get tea bagged or whatever it is they do.

i will add though until i was 25 they gave me all the wrong drugs.
then someone prompted me to try lithium and suddenly it was as if the weight of the world lifted off me shoulders i guess you could say that is indicative of manic depression.

[Edited on 10-4-2011 by jon]
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[*] posted on 12-4-2011 at 23:48


"In what manner? Could you elaborate a bit? Is there something so wrong with the system that it severely "over the top" in terms of stress on the students? "

Well quicksilver, if you can take anecdotal since I don't have empirical...

At 10, I was recovering with brain damage from head trauma. I nearly lost sight in my left eye. During this time, someone had the brilliant idea of placing me in an advanced program in a failing school. It was my duty to keep the school GPA high enough to continue public funding while fatherless children of crack-whores would spit on me while I was taking a dump. I wasn't allowed to go to the school walking distance from home- I had to take a bus through two other school districts.
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[*] posted on 13-4-2011 at 07:22


Quote: Originally posted by ldanielrosa  

At 10, I was recovering with brain damage from head trauma. I nearly lost sight in my left eye. During this time, someone had the brilliant idea of placing me in an advanced program in a failing school. It was my duty to keep the school GPA high enough to continue public funding while fatherless children of crack-whores would spit on me while I was taking a dump. I wasn't allowed to go to the school walking distance from home- I had to take a bus through two other school districts.


I would say that's damn well "over-the-top". IMO, that's a crime and SO demoralizing that it's a credit to your guts and perseverance that you can look back on that from a different setting.
Occasionally I have heard about things like that & I wonder why more attention hadn't been paid to those issues when they arose. But then I also understand that in many school systems, the nasty realities are swept under the rug.
Speaking only for myself; if that had happened to me, I would not let that go so easily and I COULD understand why someone would want to punish those responsible.
The difference however is that i would want to punish those responsible. Many examples we see of overt "lashing out" punishes those who had nothing to do with the disgusting behavior of those genuine perpetrators.
Then, of course, the original issues become lost. School systems who allowed that shit to take place should never remain nameless.

[Edited on 13-4-2011 by quicksilver]




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