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Author: Subject: ETN: almost killed myself... READ!
Steelvenom
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[*] posted on 17-6-2011 at 14:41


It's good he posted this as said above for a lesson for other's like myself completely new "or even experienced" in this field to exercise nothing less than extreme caution with chemical's.

His wounds are childs play compared to what could of happened. I would post some examples from Afghanistan and Iraq but I don't think that would be appropriate nor professional and it could get me in trouble.

Lesson learned!

Thanks for the post aqua,
Sv
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KemiRockarFett
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[*] posted on 17-6-2011 at 16:26


Some mistakes that I have noticed people doing often:

1) Nitrating glycerine in a glass beaker their people stir the mixture with a glass thermometer. What happends when nitroglycerine is compressed between two hard surfaces? glass towards glass.. BAAAAM. A common mistake is to manufacture HE in such a way that hard surfaces can meet and set of an explosive. Place a HE on an anvil an hit it with an hammer and compare with the situation their the hammer is changed to a peace of wood. Think about that next time you produce HE in glass beakers and stir with a glass rod or mix with a stainless steel spoon.

2) Putty from HMTD and NC is reported on forums to get of by it self. I dont know if this is true. The reports talk about behavour compared to the compound that formes when ammonia acts on iodine.

3) Putting sulfur containing fuses in chlorates or peroxides. I am not sure of how peroxides acts with sulfur.

4) Using primarys as secondarys or uses a lot of primary to set of a secondary due to lazyness. ( They do not have energy to build a PRESS to manufacture a blasting cap. )

5) People does not care about static electricity when they manufactures their caps from drinking straws.



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[*] posted on 18-6-2011 at 04:01
Dynamite truck




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[*] posted on 18-6-2011 at 05:13


Quote: Originally posted by KemiRockarFett  


3) Putting sulfur containing fuses in chlorates or peroxides. I am not sure of how peroxides acts with sulfur.

4) Using primarys as secondarys or uses a lot of primary to set of a secondary due to lazyness. ( They do not have energy to build a PRESS to manufacture a blasting cap. )

5) People does not care about static electricity when they manufactures their caps from drinking straws.


Good stuff.
There had been some discussion about the "fuse issue" (sulfur & Chlorate) sometime back. Some people had even gone as far as coating the tips of the fuse with NC lacquer to minimize this potential.
Where it had originated is in some small pyrotechnic "plants" the common method of safety was the use of water to whett the compositions or paper wrapping prior to assembly.
IMO that was where the real problem existed. Very pure sulfur flour (dry) in minute amounts in negligible contact with a chlorate presents less of an issue - but when it is whetted the problem becomes quite serious. I am not comfortable with the combination in any amount but the water issue makes it a very serious concern. Some small workshop "plants" used water in their construction as a safest means and then dried the completed units. And here we can clearly see that even a small amount can suffice to form a problem. Dipping the end in NC lacquer might be an answer but without anything to stop the water from contacting the sulfur I would agree it's not a wise move what so ever. Color bleeding and plaster of Paris plugs are often an indication of the use of water in construction. This is NOT just an "exploding fireworks" problem but found in smokes (where chlorate existed frequently) & ground-oriented designs & fountains

The putty issue has often resulted in disaster. Many people don't realize that HMTD is a very sensitive material & putty invites manipulation.

Static is my personal "monster". It's SO insidious that it gets unnoticed or (worse) it becomes common place to receive a "tick" from shoes and carpeting. Every time that issue is perceived, it should be a real warning sign. IMO, one should not allow that to ever go unnoticed.

[Edited on 18-6-2011 by quicksilver]




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[*] posted on 18-6-2011 at 06:21


I will add two more points:

a) People lights acetone peroxides as gun cotton for the flasing effect and lives in the false reality that as long as its in the open air DDT will not happen. This is not true as stored acetone peroxide ( often darkens a bit from white to grey), probably water/acetone stucked to the crystals will evaporate with time. The totaly dryed peroxide will detonate in mg ammunts. So the hard fact is that its idioti to light up more when mg of HE if they are of primary kind or semipimary kind as ETN.

b) Many people falsely claims that WET ( under water) stored explovies are safe. This is 100 % wrong. A couple of % more security will be ashived by the wet storage as heat from friction could be distrubuted to the water instead of just locally affect the explosive. Peroxides of acetone and similar primarys should be stored solved in acetone/toluen or whatever. If crystals appear in the acetone solution of for exampe acetone peroxide over time you DONT have to be scared, these will not detonate by them self. Put in more acetone and they will go in solution. Or remove them, not by your hands !, and place them on a SOFT material as a paper and crush them with a LONG wodden tool. This will not initate them as falsely clamed by theori nerds at forums. Its not, what I have found, any reports of acetone peroxide with crystal structures making them candidates of auto ignition. Correct me if I am wrong!

People using peroxides anyhow and are using them as primarys WHY do they use more than 100 mg of them as primary ? WHY ? The answer is that they probably are LAZY and therfore ignores saftety. Check the tube for idiots making blasting caps containg grams av peroxides.

Peroxides do not use them. BUT if you use them use 100 mg at 250 kg/cm2 in a cap together with PETN at the same pressure. On top of the peroxide compress a non static initiable ignition compound that "secures" the peroxide. The ram that is uses to compress the PETN should have an spherical or similar end so that the primary is not in contact with the walls of the blasting cap, instead the primary will concentrate to the center of the top of the compressed PETN and become inbedded between the ignition mixture and PETN.

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[*] posted on 18-6-2011 at 07:03


Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  

Your mention of the Dynamite Truck reminded me of the 1977 movie Sorcerer, which is the nickname of the truck in the movie. The movie plot is about transporting old dynamite, and a man getting a chance to restart his life. If this doesn't make your hands sweat, they may have a job for you. ;)



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[*] posted on 18-6-2011 at 07:32


Quote:

People using peroxides anyhow and are using them as primarys WHY do they use more than 100 mg of them as primary ? WHY ?

500mg HMTD should be OK, that's enough to set off most AN mixtures. Not recommendable though.
I believe that in most cases 100mg HMTD + P(ETN) caps are not safer than HMTD only ones.


Quote:

use them use 100 mg at 250 kg/cm2 in a cap together with PETN at the same pressure. On top of the peroxide compress a non static initiable ignition compound that "secures" the peroxide. The ram that is uses to compress the PETN should have an spherical or similar end so that the primary is not in contact with the walls of the blasting cap, instead the primary will concentrate to the center of the top of the compressed PETN and become inbedded between the ignition mixture and PETN.

You forgot the most important thing - a conductive and strong hull. A least not such a thing as a straw that can be bent or squeezed easily.
Otherwise that method probably wont help you very much, I bet PETN is not very conductive itself, it will barely act as faraday cage.

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[*] posted on 18-6-2011 at 08:01


For some reason, an accident thread seems to always yield a greater wealth of safe protocol tips than many of the other safety threads related to energetics.

KemiRockarFett, I really enjoyed your posts, as there was a lot of advice in then that I have never been exposed to in the past. I have never even thought twice about setting sulfur containing fuses in my large smoke makers(KClO<sub>3</sub> based). I doubt there is much intimate contact, but I wont continue. It isn't worth it to me because I often store them for many months.

I have played with some organic peroxides before as well, and have noticed that there is a great difference in effect in completely dry TCAP when ignited unconfined and damp TCAP. To get the full effect with even slightly damp TCAP, heat 5-10mg gently from below on foil. As soon as the hotplate starts to really heat, up the powder will first dry, then slightly melt, then there is foil crumbs everywhere.

I also found your tips on cap construction insightful. It doesn't get much talk around here for obvious reasons but I think it is a valid topic when the intention if safety. I am afraid I can't say that TCAP or even MEKP really have any place in an initiator, even if well protected an treated properly as you described. This just may be paranoia on my part though, as I'm sure a lot of people do it.

I also think the reason why some foolish people use multi-gram peroxide caps is because they don't have a sensitive booster like PETN to employ, and TCAP and the others are not that good at shooting an insensitive secondary. If these people have the intelligence and/or means to synthesize PETN, or even ETN, then they surly can, and should use a more suitable and less unpredictable primary then an organic peroxide.

[Edited on 18-6-2011 by Bot0nist]




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[*] posted on 18-6-2011 at 10:29


The amount of a primary required depends on the configuration and depends on the primary being used. It may require a few milligrams or it may require several grams. Making generalizations suggesting use of some arbitrary amount without regard for the configuration or what primary is being used is over simplifying.
Proven reliable firing trains are engineered and tested systems ....not guesses.
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[*] posted on 18-6-2011 at 11:15


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
The amount of a primary required depends on the configuration and depends on the primary being used. It may require a few milligrams or it may require several grams. Making generalizations suggesting use of some arbitrary amount without regard for the configuration or what primary is being used is over simplifying.
Proven reliable firing trains are engineered and tested systems ....not guesses.


Yup. Me (The Analogue Guy) owns an origional copy
of this.... you can DL your copy from the usually place.

Accession Number : AD0029151
Title : ORDNANCE EXPLOSIVE TRAIN DESIGNERS' HANDBOOK
Corporate Author : NAVAL ORDNANCE LAB WHITE OAK MD
Handle / proxy Url : http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/AD029151
Report Date : APR 1952
Pagination or Media Count : 365
Descriptors : *EXPLOSIVE TRAINS, RELIABILITY, HANDBOOKS.
Subject Categories : AMMUNITION AND EXPLOSIVES
Distribution Statement : APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE


djh
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The explosion removed the windows,
the door and most of the chimney.
It was the sort of thing you expected in
the Street of Alchemists. The neighbours
preferred explosions, which were at least
identifiable and soon over. They were better
than the smells, which crept up on you.

Terry Pratchett


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[*] posted on 18-6-2011 at 12:02


Yes, the type of primary used as well as the density of the base charge. Commercial caps tend to have 300mg LA, which, I'm sure, has a built in safety factor, so it only requires probably 100mg.

Hey rosco, how much primary do you need for an electrical cap that uses ETN base charge? The answer: none. ;)


[Edited on 18-6-2011 by holmes1880]
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[*] posted on 18-6-2011 at 12:31


The world will be a more tranquil place when the clueless get smart enough to chill out with the mellow :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UTVUZ5SD1U
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[*] posted on 18-6-2011 at 12:35


Indeed. You should listen to it more often, Dave.
And for those of us who still work with HE, unlike some feeble souls, man up and listen to some real music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlsxaY6GIVo

I bet if TS listened to this, he'd pull out the glass shards out of himself like a real man, take a shot of Jack Daniel's, then say "f**k it" and go back to casting ETN. :cool:



[Edited on 19-6-2011 by holmes1880]
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[*] posted on 19-6-2011 at 01:00


Going back to the accident, I think I know where aquaregia got the stupid idea to melt ETN in a bunsen burner:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwhF_TKReSA&feature=playe...

The TACN sensitivity thread had this vdeo there, which was on Jor's old, forgotten website.

Ta-da-da-da-da-da-da ta dam tam-tam ta dam tam-tam tadam tam-tam tadadadadadadaa.....ta dam tam tam

[Edited on 19-6-2011 by holmes1880]
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[*] posted on 19-6-2011 at 02:08


Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880  
Going back to the accident, I think I know where aquaregia got the stupid idea to melt ETN in a bunsen burner:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwhF_TKReSA&feature=playe...

The TACN sensitivity thread had this vdeo there, which was on Jor's old, forgotten website.

Ta-da-da-da-da-da-da ta dam tam-tam ta dam tam-tam tadam tam-tam tadadadadadadaa.....ta dam tam tam

[Edited on 19-6-2011 by holmes1880]


Well, Mr. Holmes 1880 now you really convinced me that you are so smart and skillful that you are fully impregnated from such a STUPID mistakes. Keep the good work and don’t stop to contribute more and more useful information.
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[*] posted on 19-6-2011 at 03:04


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qssmeIXTfUU Juliana and Llewellyn - Guardian Angel

Guardian Angel

Be still for a while
Come into my light my sweet child
I can rescue you
I've always been with you
Believe in me
You're looking at your Guardian Angel
Looking at your Guardian Angel

Breathe in Love with every breath
Michael's by your side with Gabriel's strength
Uriel is here
His clarity is crystal clear
Raphael will heal
Now call out to your Guardian Angel
Call out to your Guardian Angel

Be still for a while
Come into my light my sweet child
I can rescue you
I've always been with you
Believe in me
You're looking at your Guardian Angel
Looking at your Guardian Angel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi5--RjADLY Llewellyn - Take Me Home

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS_efeKbbwI Spreading Wings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ5prC9CUW4 Don't Miss The Boat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyOm3grpsSc Follow The Shepherd Home

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDUbq3iAocg How Deep The Father's Love For Us

Happy Father's Day

[Edited on 19-6-2011 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 19-6-2011 at 05:21
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[*] posted on 19-6-2011 at 09:55


Rosco has went full-troll autopilot. Those songs would actually be somewhat pleasant if they weren't filled with crap about a BS story that was meant to control the masses. It's truly bewildering how weak and stupid people that surround us are. Sometimes I feel like a wolf locked in sheep barn.

@Jimbo

Word you're looking for is "impervious" not "impregnated". I really am impervious to accidents because I reduced my tests from 3-4 a day to maybe 1-2 every other month and I don't really make more than 2-3g ETN at a time. I am also the only person on here to successfully implement Dinegar's study on secondary blasting caps. I've just made some necessary modifications. Rosco can't seem to stomach that he himself couldn't do it. :cool:


[Edited on 19-6-2011 by holmes1880]
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[*] posted on 19-6-2011 at 10:55


Have you tested that wooden block yet?

Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880  
I use a wooden block 2X4 about 3'' long to press ETN caps in thin aluminum. If for some reason it goes bang, the wood should catch most of the aluminum and the 3 layers of tape prevent wood from going at very high velocities in a small splinters. My fingers would be 1'' away from the block and I expect to have no permanent injuries at that distance. Caps range between 0.5-1g.
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[*] posted on 19-6-2011 at 11:05


Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880  
Rosco has went full-troll autopilot. Those songs would actually be somewhat pleasant if they weren't filled with crap about a BS story that was meant to control the masses. It's truly bewildering how weak and stupid people that surround us are. Sometimes I feel like a wolf locked in sheep barn.


Speaking of pilots, I have known several combat pilots who are Christians and they certainly are not weak or stupid people. One of them was a very quiet man who used to fly a Dauntless dive bomber. One day he flew a mission against a Japanese ship and killed more than a thousand men when
he sunk their ship.
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[*] posted on 19-6-2011 at 11:26


Quote: Originally posted by gnitseretni  
Have you tested that wooden block yet?


Haven't had the time to go out to the woods. I did acquire a 6X6 block of wood drilled through the middle to fit the cap. I think I will run a rope around it in a few layers- that would prevent any big chunks flying off at me or catch any shrapnel that gets through. On top of rope would go gorilla tape.

I would set it up more remotely, had I been using a sensitive primary. The chance of accident while pressing ETN is miniscule at best.

Speaking of nitric esters, Sorcerer 1977 is really good movie.
Uploaded to YT : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV43AXhoCDk&feature=fvwre...
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[*] posted on 19-6-2011 at 12:49


Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880  
I bet if TS listened to this, he'd pull out the glass shards out of himself like a real man, take a shot of Jack Daniel's, then say "f**k it" and go back to casting ETN. :cool:

[Edited on 19-6-2011 by holmes1880]


Sherlock, for some reason, the more I read your posts, the more upset I get. I guess I should not since, it is bad practice to react to trolls. Anyhow, some posters here reacted in the proper way saying "hey, I guess I should be more careful with that stuff", which make this thread really worthwhile. But you my friend, with that attitude of yours, are the prototype of the next guy to take glass shards out of yourself drinking Jack Daniels. When that happens, please do not forget to let us know, because I sincerely think it will. You'll be alot less than a "real man" then, because you'll see how much it hurts. That's assuming you got eyes left that is. I really think your cavalier attitude toward HE's really sets a bad example for young ones coming here. For that reason, I really hope they are alot smarter than you. While I do not like Jack Daniels, I do enjoy Single Malts very much; but, when you're full of glass shards, the last thing on your mind will be to have a drink. Anyhow having a drink is ill advise before a general anesthetic. The news papers, obituary section are full of people like you. The sadest part I guess, is that you'll never learn...

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[*] posted on 19-6-2011 at 14:38


Song is called "Padre's Wood" off the soundtrack.100% pure bad*ss music, that's the point. Nobody expects you to become hardcore movie-type superhero. You're just not too acquaint with American-style humor...

Look at you, hoping I injure myself. It's only your pipe dream. I don't boil nitric esters in a glass tube after casting it. I also wear eye protection. You think you're warning people? There is a public page of HMTD accident where someone blew off a fingers cutting HMTD straw. It's been up 3 months in Google search. 2 weeks ago a kid posted on there saying he blew off a finger that week cutting an HMTD straw with scissors. Identical accident. And you'd think there was a clear warning...

Everything becomes dangerous when you throw a retard into the mix. Amen to that.
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[*] posted on 19-6-2011 at 18:23


Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880  
You think you're warning people? There is a public page of HMTD accident where someone blew off a fingers cutting HMTD straw. It's been up 3 months in Google search. 2 weeks ago a kid posted on there saying he blew off a finger that week cutting an HMTD straw with scissors. Identical accident. And you'd think there was a clear warning...

Everything becomes dangerous when you throw a retard into the mix. Amen to that.


I can't really see ever having an accident. It's always the lazy people that get injured. Also... I never synthesis anything that hasn't already been fully researched.

People who don't fully clean their glassware... (I keep mine crystal clean with ethanol/acetone.) People that get their fingers closer than two inches to a detonator in construction... People who don't fully deacidify and test with PH strips...

Honestly... The average person doesn't even remember when I tell them to put the fuse on the OUTSIDE of the bag when getting rid of some HMTD... Sheesh...


I still use HMTD, and even compact upto 0.5g of it with the blow of a heavy hammer. It's completely safe because between me and it is two inches of thick plywood and a one foot airspace. The compaction is done via a one and a half foot wood rod. If it dets it's no problem... I even wear earmuffs because I half expect it to because I'm trying to achieve the maximum compression possible without a hydraulic press. I even keep myself out of the path the wood rod would take should it not splinter and instead decide to launch itself skyward...

Always make sure that the worst case scenario is not a bad scenario at all. :D Don't argue with them Holmes... Waste of typing...

[Edited on 20-6-2011 by freedompyro]
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[*] posted on 19-6-2011 at 21:27


I do not have half of your audacity, freedom. Good thing to be armored up for pressing HMTD and do it outside....cause that devil powder can't tolerate even minor friction. What is the capsule made of?
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