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Author: Subject: Oslo and the amateur experimenter
The WiZard is In
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[*] posted on 26-7-2011 at 08:44
Oslo and the amateur experimenter


One of my acolyte's just sent me this missive....

Hi Don,

The mass murdering of mainly innocent kids in Oslo recently will
also have a tremendous effect and influence on the amateur pyro
hobbyism in future in Europe.

As terrorist bombing attacks, drug design and fireworks accidents
during the last two decades already were followed by strict rules
and difficult availability of chemicals and apparatus, the Oslo
attack probably will wipe out euro pyro hobbyism.

In his 1500+ pages large manifesto the mass murderer Breivic
writes about how to get chemicals and to cover up the story, and
he promotes using the pyro hobby amateur status to hide evil
goals like blowing up people.

From his manifesto, page 1029, quote:

"General chemical cover story

As there are a wide range of chemicals I will not cover them all.
Just research the specific chemical in Wikipedia and you will see an
overview of commercial/industrial uses. Make up an appropriate
cover story for that specific chemical. Be creative.

Explosive chemical cover story

If a compound has limited or no civilian uses, you should just say
that you are a pyrotechnical enthusiast who are going to create a
nice, low budget show for your sister’s wedding ceremony/new
years eve in a rural area. And that you have been creating various
pyrotechniques for years. There are several thousands of these
enthusiasts all around Europe and many suppliers are familiar with
them and their hobby. You don’t want to tell him any of this unless
he specifically asks, though. Remember to research which
pyrotechnique compound you are planning on creating, just in
case."

And about obtaining a lab he writes, quote:

"Renting a lab

Many individuals make the mistake of using their urban apartment
as a lab. Firstly; if anyone (neighbours, friends, family) sees you
wearing a respirator face mask/hazmat suit they will notify the
system protectors. If they accidentally find any of your equipment
they may notify the system protectors. If anyone smells chemical
odors in your block they will also notify the system protectors.
Don’t be an idiot and take unnecessary risks. Rent a small
cottage/farm in an isolated place. If you can’t afford to, then you
shouldn’t be working with explosives anyway and should consider
limiting your operation to one which only requires guns.

So the question remains; is it really worth risking your life for a
military operation with only 3% success rate? It is probably worth
it if you have a realistic chance (50%+) of successfully creating a
500 kg truck bomb, which has the capability to destroy a medium
or large building, thus instantly executing 100-300 category A, B
and C traitors. However, if your bomb is only likely to have the
capacity to kill 1-15 individuals, you are probably better off
focusing on perfecting a small arms operation. Because a small
arms operation should result in 10-30 executions for single cell
operations, 20-60 executions for duo cell and 30-90 executions for
triple cell. So before you decide whether you want to incorporate
an explosive component to your operation; be pragmatic and
always choose a realistic option which reflects your capabilities.
Never choose operations which has a lower than 50% success rate,
unless the payoff is exceptionally high. Be ambitious but at the
same time; don’t be naive. The manufacturing of explosives is not
for anyone and should NOT be the goal for everyone. A successful
mission MUST be the ultimate goal for any and all Justiciar Knights,
and for the most part; this will include limiting your operation to
small arms shock attacks of undefended concentrations of
category A, B and C traitors." End Quote.

If you do not have the manifesto yet, here it is and it is long years
of food for psychologists and psychiatrists. It gives good insight in
the life and mind of a lone wolf terrorist with psychopathic
megalomania.

Best regards, ....

-----------
This URL [PDF] is the fist of many that pop up @ Google.

http://tinyurl.com/3b6okkh

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[*] posted on 26-7-2011 at 08:58


You can safely bet this will attract quite a bit of attention, I remember on the news mentions on that manifesto about the synthesis of picric acid... You can imagine that the little latitude left in the hobby of home chemistry is going to disappear in a puff! Sadly, this unwanted attention and scrutiny will increase our level of difficulty tenfold. Seems the crazies are starting to come out of the woodworks more and more... An old chinese proverb says "(may) we live in interesting times..."

Robert




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[*] posted on 26-7-2011 at 10:27


I have been surprised at how "relatively" kind the media has been to this guy here in the USA. Showing nice looking photos of him and providing his "presentation slides" and manifesto for all to see and without a lot of negative commentary.



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[*] posted on 26-7-2011 at 11:04


This is page 1,000 from his manifesto.

Have a look at his reference <---- Link



[Edited on 26-7-2011 by peach]




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[*] posted on 26-7-2011 at 11:21


Quote: Originally posted by gregxy  
I have been surprised at how "relatively" kind the media has been to this guy here in the USA. Showing nice looking photos of him and providing his "presentation slides" and manifesto for all to see and without a lot of negative commentary.


It is not for naught that some here call it —

The Eastern Liberal News Establishment..
One could add — Western LNE....
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[*] posted on 26-7-2011 at 12:10


He referenced science madness? FUCK!

BTW how are our Norwegian members doing? Hope no one was hurt




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[*] posted on 26-7-2011 at 22:59


He seriously referenced us?? No kidding FUCK :(!

If authorities go through that, I can just imagine....




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[*] posted on 27-7-2011 at 05:25


I see that polish authorities have suspeceted or charged the owner of Keten chemicals for supplying him(the terrorist) with "unauthorized chemicals" which is a small ammount of NaNO2 and 150kgs of Al powder. They say he can face up to 8 years.

What is also interesting is that Norwegian authorities had all the Norwegian customers of keten on a list whick they supposedly got from part of customs which has to do with currency and Interpol.

Its ok with me though, as long as they use it to keep the nation safe, and not to harass all the hobby chemists.
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[*] posted on 27-7-2011 at 06:28


One article: http://www.trove.com/channel/search/content/jmPcy

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[*] posted on 27-7-2011 at 10:17


Cops took the guys computer, sigh. Probably knocked the door down and held everyone up with machine guns too. There was also the place that sold the AN fertilizer. I think the killer had a farm so it wasn't suspicious.

In a few threads I was talking about AN, like purifying or recrystallizing 100g worth. Now paranoia and suspicion are back.




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[*] posted on 27-7-2011 at 11:13


The main concern of the police will be that they are not part of his 'knights of templar' hate campaign, and so knowingly supplying him for the purposes of making high explosives.

They will want to check how the farm supplier vets customers for bulk orders of nitrates, and Lukasz for the curiously large quantity of aluminium powder. Reading through his manifesto, there are clues as to what he's likely said to Lukasz, if Lukasz asked.

The only interest they're likely to show in the order histories is if someone else has been placing similar orders, as that could be either Anders or an accomplice who's also working on a similar bomb for a similar purpose.

Quote:
Breivik's lawyer has stated that Breivik may be insane.[63] The chief of the Norwegian Police Security Service disputes the claim Breivik is insane saying "His lawyer is not a psychologist and I am not. But I have previously been a defense attorney and I perceive him as a sane person because he has been so focused over such a long time."[64] Breivik himself has confessed to using testosterone in the days before the attack, saying he had become more aggressive after coming off testosterone supplements.


It looks like not only his lawyer but also Breivik are going to try for insanity.

It is unlikely someone who put so much logical thought into his planning is of such unsound mind that he could not understand the severity of it. It is important he is charged appropriately for what he's done, which means demonstrating the elaborate logic he put into the murdering.

Another concern is the following. He sent that manifesto to lots of other people. If those other people also happen to have been placing orders for chemicals, speaking with them, quickly, would be important.

Quote:
The man responsible for the mass killing in Norway emailed his 1,500-page document to 250 British contacts less than 90 minutes before he began his attack, according to a Belgian MP.

Anders Behring Breivik sent his manifesto to 1,003 email addresses at 2.09pm on Friday – less than an hour and a half before he detonated a bomb in Oslo.

According to Tanguy Veys MP for the rightwing anti-Muslim party Vlaams Belang, – and one of those who received the document – approximately a quarter of those on the email list were UK-based.

"I think the UK was the biggest group [of recipients]," he told the Guardian last night. "There were people from Italy, France Germany … but the UK was the biggest number."

Using the name Andrew Berwick, Breivik emailed his manifesto and a link to a YouTube video and addressed each recipient "Western Europe patriot" and wrote: "It is a gift to you … I ask you to distribute it to everyone you know."

It has been reported that Scotland Yard's domestic extremism unit, which is investigating Breivik's British links, has been sent a list of UK-based email addresses although the Met refused to confirm that.

Veys said he had not had any contact with Breivik and condemned his actions.

"Looking through this it seems very difficult to find a criteria for who he sent it to … it is very strange and I am cross I have been associated with him in any way."

The news of the emails came as anti-racism campaigners in the UK said they believed Breivik may have been in touch with activists from the far-right English Defence League as recently as March.

Searchlight, the anti-fascist magazine, said the 32-year-old used the pseudonym of a 12th-century Norwegian king who led one of the Crusades to communicate with people on an English Defence League forum.

In one posting, on 9 March, the author called on rightwing activists in the UK to "keep up the good work". The message said: "Hello. To you all good English men and women, just wanted to say that you're a blessing to all in Europe, in these dark times all of Europe are looking to you in such [sic] of inspiration, courage and even hope that we might turn this evil trend with islamisation all across our continent. Well, just wanted to say keep up the good work it's good to see others that care about their country and heritage. All the best to you all. Sigurd."

Breivik boasted about his links to the UK far-right group in his manifesto. He also wrote that he was given the codename "Sigurd (the Crusader)" at a founding meeting of a group called the Knights Templar Europe in London in 2002. There is no confirmation that the author is Breivik. Sigurd is a common name in Norway.

In other messages, "Sigurd" says he attended a football ground in the UK and expressed his admiration for the EDL.

"I've seen with my own eyes what has happened to england, i was in bradford some years ago, me and a friend walked down to the football stadium of bradford, real 'nice' neighborhood, same thing in the suburbs of london. well thinking about taking a little trip over the sea and join you in a demo. would be nice with a norwegian flag alongside with union jack or the english flag, that is if a norwegian would be welcome offcourse?"

In another message, he goes on to discuss the situation in Norway.

"The biggest problem in Norway is that there is no real free press, there is a left-wing angle on all the political topics so most people are going around like idiots. And offcourse with our norwegian labour party beeing in power for most of the last 50 years dont help. but i i think there is an awakening now at least i hope so."

In his manifesto, Breivik repeatedly refers to the EDL, stating at one point: "I used to have more than 600 EDL members as Facebook friends and have spoken with tens of EDL members and leaders."

"In fact, I was one of the individuals who supplied them with processed ideological material (including rhetorical strategies) in the very beginning."

"There also appears to be a growing dispute among some figures associated with the EDL over who Breivik's "mentor" Richard may be. In his manifesto, the Norwegian said he met "Richard" at the Knights Templar meeting in 2002 and says the pair became "close."

The EDL – which has staged a series of street demonstrations, many of which have turned violent, denies any links to Breivik and has condemned the killings, stating it is a peaceful organisation that rejects all forms of extremism.

Last night the EDL said in an emailed statement that it was "not aware of any contact between Breivik and EDL leadership … of anyone using the name Sigurd and the forum".

"You must realise anyone on the EDL Forum or EDL Facebook can join and make up any name that they may choose."

Since the killings there have been unconfirmed reports that Breivik attended EDL demonstrations in the UK last year – possibly in London and Newcastle


[Edited on 27-7-2011 by peach]




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[*] posted on 27-7-2011 at 19:37


A few months ago, there was a heated series of threads relating to discussion of weapons on this forum--albeit, in a perfectly scientific manner. The fact that homicidal, politically-oriented, sociopaths have cited this forum should reinforce the need for us to vigorously maintain some of the rules that are in place on this forum, specifically prohibiting discussions related to improvised weaponry and "applications" of energetic materials.



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[*] posted on 27-7-2011 at 21:56


In the USA, gun making is perfectly legal as long as you make legal type guns, but there are dozens of other forums devoted to that so it does not need to be discussed here.

What should be deleted are the endless threads on making explosives from easily available materials, and everything related to NH4NO3. The energetics section should be restricted only to pyrotechnics which do not DDT, and advanced compounds and analysis techniques. No replies should be given to new comers asking "how do I make or use explosive XX".
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[*] posted on 27-7-2011 at 22:49


i can't believe what this guy did , horrifying
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 07:13


An easy option to start with would be to lock the energetics section so people have to ask permission to use it, like the whimsy. That way, we can instantly ditch all the one post pryos and keep a better watch on what's actually being discussed.

The argument that it 'can' be legal to produce some of them is similar to the argument that it 'can' be legal to make your own guns and handle otherwise controlled topics. A piece of paper from the Home Office will make it legal to make meth in your kitchen. But the attitude towards people with one post asking how to do that is quite different to the one shown to those asking about explosives.

The former, people don't like because it hurts people. Little else hurts people more than an accidental or malevolently intended explosion.

The idea could be carried over to posts I, Klute and Len have made, about things that could possibly be used to make chemical weapons. It would be somewhat more difficult for someone with only a basic grasp of chemistry to actually do that. And the reagents being made are of significant use in numerous applications that have nothing to do with harming people. Unlike explosives.

A new application of high explosives is using them to print holograms into steel. If I saw someone having a go at that, that would be much more impressive since it demonstrates a level of ability and interest beyond making things just go bang as loudly as possible.

We all know, the majority of those posts in the forum are being made by people who posses no form of license, no form of insurance, an intent to produce a decent quantity of high explosives and, too frequently, an insufficient level of practical ability. One of your first recrystallisation should not be going towards a high explosive, in that your first dangerous gas experiments should not be with phosgene; as myfanwy discovered, with the outcome being his death.

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by peach]




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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 07:20


Quote: Originally posted by DDTea  
A few months ago, there was a heated series of threads relating to discussion of weapons on this forum--albeit, in a perfectly scientific manner. The fact that homicidal, politically-oriented, sociopaths have cited this forum should reinforce the need for us to vigorously maintain some of the rules that are in place on this forum, specifically prohibiting discussions related to improvised weaponry and "applications" of energetic materials.


Explosives? Piffle. We need to ban discussions of flammable
liquids. Remember do we? The largest mass murder in NY
if not la US of A was not committed with explosives... gasoline
was used . 89 killed in the Happy Land's Social Club arson
murder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire

Byda I believe there is already a ban on the discussion of
devices especially infernal devices here where
science is often most mad.



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I suffer from expecting we will be a seeing a SL
of these in the coming weeks.

Finnish police arrest youth on explosives charge

AP
HELSINKI (AP) — Finnish police say they have arrested an 18-
year-old man who ordered 22 pounds (10 kilograms) of fertilizer
from Poland to build make explosives. Local media cited police as
saying the man wanted to experiment with making his own
fireworks.

The Finnish National Bureau of investigation says agents grew
suspicious when the man on Tuesday received a package of
fertilizer, which contains ammonium nitrate and can be used for
making explosives.

Police said Thursday they arrested the man in the town of Lahti in
southern Finland after searching his home. They said "during the
search a number of things were confiscated and these things were
meant to manufacture an explosive device."

Police said the case has no connections to the massacre of 76
people in Norway on Friday.



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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 07:28


peach, I do not think that idea makes much real sense. The energetics section mostly describes compounds which are not easy to prepare in large quantities, and too inconvenient for use by terrorists. The chemistry and chemical terminology involved creates its own sort of "encryption barrier", as nearly all would-be terrorists do not have much chemistry knowledge, or would take the effort to learn enough about it. The people actually interested in chemistry are not the sort of people that want to kill innocent people.

Perhaps a variation of what peach suggested would be to create a separate restricted section only for organic peroxides and ammonium nitrate compositions. Nearly all terrorist bombings have involved one of these two classes of explosives.

Besides, explosives are not really any more effective to kill innocent people than guns or petrol well placed in a crowded building. Terrorists normally use explosives for special effect- to instill fear, as the media sensationalizes bombings much more than they do shootings, which are actually relatively common place. Somehow society seems to be more paranoid about explosives than guns.

Consider that, on average, more people are murdered in Mexico within a 48 hour time period than the number of people that were recently killed in Oslo. There are plenty of mass-murders that go on in Mexico, but the Western media scarcely mentions the details of most of these crimes. You have to ask yourself why the media is making such a big deal about the shootings in Norway, and what agenda they are trying to push.


[Edited on 28-7-2011 by AndersHoveland]




I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying lets remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 07:41


That's true.

Particularly the part about the more people are interested in the topic the less they seem to be in hurting anyone.

But I also don't see what harm it'd do to lock the section, given that the people who fit into that above category are quite few in number and it's not as if locking it would be entirely erasing or hiding the section.

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by peach]




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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 07:53


I do not believe arbitrary restriction is the answer to crime, terrorism, or violence. People get shot by guns. Should we completely restrict the discussion of guns?
People have been killed by petrol, battery acid has been thrown into people's faces, and innocent people have intentionally been run over. Should we give up cars?

Restricting the discussion of explosives only seems like a good idea to some people because explosives do not have many common uses in society, and those people just automatically link explosives to terrorism. If it was not so common for people to prepare their own food in their homes, we would likely be having a discussion about whether to require licenses for the possession of metal knives.

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by AndersHoveland]




I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying lets remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 08:06


Quote: Originally posted by DDTea  
A few months ago, there was a heated series of threads relating to discussion of weapons on this forum--albeit, in a perfectly scientific manner. The fact that homicidal, politically-oriented, sociopaths have cited this forum should reinforce the need for us to vigorously maintain some of the rules that are in place on this forum, specifically prohibiting discussions related to improvised weaponry and "applications" of energetic materials.



Comes upon my mind. We should stop the self flagellation until
we know for sure what he used to make la Bomb. He may not have
made it per his manifesto. I would go for a commercial cap and
dynamite. As most always — time will tell. Maybe.
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 08:21


We do restrict guns, with gun licenses. And cars with drivers licenses.

Explosives are also supposed to be restricted with licenses. The differences are that cars have a positive use in society to everyday people beyond running other people over, and it's quite hard to build a gun or a car. Whereas it's significantly easier for someone to DIY their own explosives and bypass all the licensing issues, with the end result having very little use to the public beyond engaging in illegal activity. Which means there is a stronger case for attempting to control the ease with which they get that information.

I, and I'm sure many others, attempt to gauge the persons level of ability prior to replying to a thread, so I don't instruct a teenager on how to do something that I think stands a serious chance of killing him. Of coarse, he can go off and get that information elsewhere, and I could reply with complete instructions saying it's his own fault if something bad happens. But there are countless examples in society where that is either not considered morally acceptable or is straight out illegal; showing children pornography for instance, to show them where babies come from and because they can get it on the net anyway.

What is the serious harm locking it would do by comparison to the possible benefits it will have?

Also remember, the guy was referencing specifically this forum, that has such a level of knowledge on it that it is mined and referenced by other forums. I believe it would demonstrate a good approach and awareness of the issues to take some form of action with that in mind. If more people had been more responsible, fewer chemicals would now be controlled. However, an excellent way to get more restricted is to allow highly irresponsible discussion to take place. Life is not, and needn't be, entirely polarised to one specific extreme. And I don't feel locking a forum so the discussion can be kept responsible is an extreme.

Reducing the discussion to the idea that we should ban battery acid and petrol is facetious. The reasoning behind why battery acid and petrol are legal, but the discussion of how to throw it at someone is not, should be obvious.

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by peach]




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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 08:36


Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  

Comes upon my mind. We should stop the self flagellation until
we know for sure what he used to make la Bomb. He may not have
made it per his manifesto. I would go for a commercial cap and
dynamite. As most always — time will tell. Maybe.


Given that they've kicked Keten's door through and gone to the farm supplier, it's a safe bet it's not commercial dynamite.

{edit}Okay, not safe, but decent.

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by peach]




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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 09:03


This guy was arrested for sugar and shotgun shells:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/07/28/fort.hood.arrest/index.h...

Regardless of what the nut in Oslo did, LE has an extremely low tolerance for anything related to explosives. Plus I would not want to think that anything that I did contributed to a terrorist act.


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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 09:22


Quote: Originally posted by peach  
Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  

Comes upon my mind. We should stop the self flagellation until
we know for sure what he used to make la Bomb. He may not have
made it per his manifesto. I would go for a commercial cap and
dynamite. As most always — time will tell. Maybe.


Given that they've kicked Keten's door through and gone to the
farm supplier, it's a safe bet it's not commercial dynamite.


I was thinking of dynamite as the initiator for ANFO or some
such.

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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 09:59


“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.”
-- Thomas Jefferson, one of the primary founders and third president of the USA

"Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty."
-- John Basil Barnhill

“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
– Edward Murrow

I believe that knowledge of explosives is just as essential to protecting civil liberties as ownership of guns.
During the second world war in Britain, the government was actually encouraging reserve militias to arm themselves with grenades and anti-tank weapons. Eric Arthur Blair (better known as "George Orwell"), author of Nineteen Eighty-Four and Animal Farm, belonged to such a militia and was himself an amateur explosives experimenter.

For futher thoughts about restricting information, I would refer you to: http://energetic.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&a...

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by AndersHoveland]




I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying lets remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
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