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Author: Subject: Making Sodium Silicate
CHRIS25
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[*] posted on 1-5-2012 at 00:01


===RD is the company, TSP-90 is===
Who are RD, I typed them up and received everything from readers digest to road development. Probably a US company. And tsp 90 is unheard of here.




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[*] posted on 1-5-2012 at 00:14


I doubt it is this one :P http://www.rdcompany.it/



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[*] posted on 1-5-2012 at 07:15


Quote: Originally posted by CHRIS25  
===RD is the company, TSP-90 is===
Who are RD, I typed them up and received everything from readers digest to road development. Probably a US company. And tsp 90 is unheard of here.
The actual brand is "Red Devil", not just RD. The manufacturer is "Red Devil, Inc.". Here's a fact sheet from the manufacturer.

In a rather bizarre kind of verbal twist, the acronym "TSP", which used to stand exclusively for tri-sodium phosphate, is now used to market non-phosphate cleaners. The box markings often have "TSP" in big letters and the word "substitute" right nearby in much smaller type. In any case, many of the "TSP substitutes" are metasilicates, though there are others, as I recall. I have even seen actual TSP and substitute TSP side by side on the shelf; the most visible difference is the colors of the design, and the type difference is small.

I've most often seen these products in the paint section of the home improvement store. They're used for surface preparation.
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Neil
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[*] posted on 1-5-2012 at 07:19


I've seen silicates in a lot of "green degreasers"
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CHRIS25
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[*] posted on 1-5-2012 at 08:03


I will visit the builders providers over here, doubt very much if they have this stuff. Never seen an american product in this country except for supermarket substitution american cookies at 27 times the price!!!But that TSP now makes perfect sense. Good to be aware of all this, thanks.



‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)

Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)

The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by precision and law. (me)
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[*] posted on 1-5-2012 at 14:54


You can come take all you want away for free from our plant. When we make it, we make it by the ton as a byproduct.


That goes to any member. Just provide the transport and the container and we'll fill it.

[Edited on 1-5-2012 by Fleaker]




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[*] posted on 1-5-2012 at 16:41


http://www.buy4now.ie/woodiesdiy/productdetail.aspx?pid=1199...

Ferocious price for the small amount but may get you away. Try craft shops, hardwars stores and cerimic supply stores. (as stated above).
Mistral also sell the stuff

http://mistralni.co.uk/catalogue/product/36

I read (on google) that is was used for preserving eggs during the great depression.
Now there would be nothing quite like a great big feed of Sodium Metasilicate preserved dodgy hen eggs (wrong colour of yoke laid by a hen that really wants to be a rooser (sorry B81 :D)) together with some slices of Hoover hogs (murdered Armadillouse) as you crawled along on your Hoovercraft squashing real bunnies into fly bunnies.........

Think I'll go away now.
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CHRIS25
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[*] posted on 2-5-2012 at 04:02


Thanks for the offer Fleaker! Dann ferrocious pricing yep.



‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)

Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)

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[*] posted on 2-5-2012 at 12:49


I assume there is some way to take silica from talc. Perhaps fusion with sodium hydroxide or carbonate.



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[*] posted on 3-5-2012 at 13:08


How about silicic acid and sodium hydroxide?



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[*] posted on 3-5-2012 at 13:36


And where would you get silicic acid?

Silicic acid is usually made in the laboratory by acidifying silicate salts. Dehydration of the gelatin-like silicic acid produces silica gel, which the OP wants. So, there is no point in making sodium silicate from silicic acid if the OP wanted silica gel.
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CHRIS25
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[*] posted on 4-5-2012 at 04:31


Damprid (calcium chloride) and sodium silicate unheard of by the major Trade suppliers of farming and builders businesses. Took a tour today and visited them all. They never heard of it. Saw damprid on Amazon uk but not at that price.




‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)

Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)

The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by precision and law. (me)
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[*] posted on 4-5-2012 at 14:30


Quote: Originally posted by CHRIS25  
Damprid (calcium chloride) and sodium silicate unheard of by the major Trade suppliers of farming and builders businesses. Took a tour today and visited them all. They never heard of it. Saw damprid on Amazon uk but not at that price.


"Took a tour today and visited them all"

How many was that?

Aldi often have Calcium Chloride. Its used a a dehumidifier.

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CHRIS25
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[*] posted on 4-5-2012 at 14:59


There are only four big businesses like this in my area, plus two farmers suppliers and a co-op. Aldi? Never seen it there but will take a look, But where are you? USA England?



‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)

Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)

The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by precision and law. (me)
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[*] posted on 4-5-2012 at 15:28


Well it's not surprising if such businesses are unfamiliar with chemical names. It's always been called water glass here.

Rutland makes a product for hardware store sale (cement floor sealer) that would be in the general OTC category I was talking about earlier, if only any hardware stores actually sold it. IIRC their furnace cement, which is sold, is loaded with silicate, but such a product's usefulness and the chances of an Irish equivalent are not the best.

I was not impressed by the action of sodium carbonate on talc at 950C, but am assured that 1100C will clean up the mess in my crucible. Obviously these are stressful conditions for many crucibles.




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CHRIS25
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[*] posted on 5-5-2012 at 06:27


Don't worry I am going to melt glass and get it that way.



‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)

Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)

The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by precision and law. (me)
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[*] posted on 5-5-2012 at 08:04


At what temperature does glass melt?



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[*] posted on 5-5-2012 at 09:43


Quote: Originally posted by Eddygp  
At what temperature does glass melt?
Here's your link.
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CHRIS25
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[*] posted on 5-5-2012 at 12:14


Quote: Originally posted by Eddygp  
At what temperature does glass melt?


Hi, I am using Sodium Hydroxide heated up and kept warm in a stainless steel saucepan, I have not yet done it but it will work.




‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)

Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)

The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by precision and law. (me)
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[*] posted on 12-5-2012 at 16:07


A lot of concrete sealers contain Sodium Silicate.
I droppedsome Copper Sulphate into the product in the link and it 'grew' an atomic explosion. It contains Sodium Silicate. Lots of builders providers should have it. Its about 10 Quid for 5 liters. (GeoCel Integral Waterproofer)
It also conatins some Sodium (or probably potassium) hydroxide.

http://www.geocel.co.uk/product.aspx?id=142&pr=gbar

There is a white ring on the bottom of the container in the picture. It is Potassium Perchlorate as I dropped in some Sodium Perchlorate solution to see if there was any Potassium in the product (Potassium Perchlorate is not very soluble). I am not too sure if there is Na or K Hydroxide with the Silicate as I do not know the solubility of Sodium Perchlorate in a concentrated solution of Sodium Silicate.



Na_Si.jpg - 16kB
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CHRIS25
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[*] posted on 13-5-2012 at 03:41


Thanks Dan, good to know.



‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)

Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)

The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by precision and law. (me)
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[*] posted on 12-12-2014 at 20:20


Alright, time to reopen this thread. Today out of curiosity I decided to try my hand at making some sodium silicate from scratch: No silica gel involved. I cranked up my burner to its highest setting, which easily melted about 8 grams of sodium hydroxide in a stainless steel crucible. I then slowly began to add fine quartz sand while stirring with a steel rod, and to my surprise, it seemed to dissolve quite quickly into the sodium hydroxide! Intending to make sure there was no unreacted NaOH left over, I continued adding sand until the contents of my crucible abruptly solidified into a crunchy mass. I then added a bit of water to return it to a liquid phase, and again boiled to dryness.

This "experiment" is merely a test to see if it was doable; So can anyone suggest a reasonably definitive test to see if my product is what I think it is? There's an excess of quartz sand present, so I intend to filter it out of my solution as a first step.




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[*] posted on 12-12-2014 at 20:38


I imagine filtering will be very difficult, as IIRC solutions of sodium silicate are quite viscous.
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[*] posted on 12-12-2014 at 20:46


I've diluted it quite a lot, but it is still syrupy; I get an occasional drop through the paper.



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[*] posted on 13-12-2014 at 02:41


Quote: Originally posted by No Tears Only Dreams Now  

This "experiment" is merely a test to see if it was doable; So can anyone suggest a reasonably definitive test to see if my product is what I think it is? There's an excess of quartz sand present, so I intend to filter it out of my solution as a first step.


(NOTE: I am not a chemist and if anything below actually needs correcting then please tell me so that I can re-do my own tests)

Some time ago I needed to find the Sodium Oxide content in my silicate. I used HCl and you have to titrate to a PH of about 4.3, I used a comparator strip for this.

I weighed 5g of the silicate suspect into into boiling water
made 0.5M HCl and using PH strips titrated until a PH of 4.3 was reached.

Calculations: 40 mLs HCl titrated/1000 x 0.5 M HCl = 0.02
0.02 x 62 g/mol NaO = 1.24
1.24/2 (because 2HCl needed per one mol SiO2) = 0.62g in my 5g sample.

This means my sample contained 12.4% Na and O. How does this help? Well, A general Sodium silicate solution contains 12% Na, O and 30% Silicon dioxide. So I think mine was spot on? Although I must add that Na2O4Si is 50% Na and Na2O7Si3 is 19% Na. So it varies considerably. but the Less Sodium there is in the compound the less soluble it is.

Also, I have not done this, but to measure the silicate content you could add HCl until the silica precipitates, boil the filtrate and you are left with NaCl, though I am not sure exactly if this is correct, someone else could help here.

As I said if any of the above is incorrect please correct.


[Edited on 13-12-2014 by CHRIS25]




‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)

Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)

The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by precision and law. (me)
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