erlybrd
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Help with nicotine question
I have been doing some research on the new eliquid that is on the market. IT is now available in 100mg/ml pure nicotine. I will say first off i'm not
a chemist and have no credentials past high school so if i'm looking at something incorrectly please dont hesitate to let me know. Here are my
qeustions on this.
k if this is 100mg per ml that means there are 100mgs of nicotine per ml that is in a bottle. Depending on how the bottle was sized would
determine the amount of nicotine. It is however diluted into either a pg or a vg base. IF this liquid were to come into contact with human skin would
it absorb through the skin. WOuld the skin pull the nicotine out leaving behind the vg or pg? WOuld the vg or pg efffect the absorption rate? Would
they completely prevent absorption? Would this nicotine be ionized properly to reach the blood brain barrier? If someone exposed themselves to it
dermally for a period of time is addiction possible? Hopefullly from some of what i've read on here with experiments on extracting nicotine you guys
will know the answers to these questions.
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White Yeti
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This subject has already been discussed in multiple threads and is generally not very popular. Nicotine is really nasty stuff, it is advisable to
avoid it by all means necessary. Nicotine is the most addicting substance we currently know of.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/search.php?token=&src...
"Ja, Kalzium, das ist alles!" -Otto Loewi
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Prometheus23
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Nicotine is not the "most addictive substance we currently know of". Such a claim is also often made about caffeine, and almost invariably by the
people who smoke cigarettes or drink coffee themselves and have not been able to quit. The many sources which support these claims are often an
example of myths becoming facts by being printed and reprinted over and over until it's all over the internet. The few statistics which identify
nicotine or caffeine as the most addictive substance in the world usually use facts like "X% of users of this drug become addicted and are unable to
quit". These don't take into account the legality, extreme availability, and societal acceptance of using these drugs in comparison to illegal
narcotics like heroin and methamphetamine. In any case it's impossible to acquire a direct and objective measurement of the "addictiveness" of a drug
in relation to all others, since there are dozens if not hundreds of different factors which determine if an individual person will become addicted to
a specific drug.
Sorry for the rant. But blanket statements like that are just bad science and I've grown really tired of seeing things like that which are based off
nothing but more bad science and/or people's personal issues.
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starman
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What are 'pg' or 'vg' bases ?
Chemistry- The journey from the end of physics to the beginning of life.(starman)
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erlybrd
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pg and vg
Thanks prome for that reply as well i do agree with you that although nicotine and cafiene are both addictive to say either are the "most" addictive
thing on the planet just isnt accurate. I'm looking for science related answers not trying to stir up a political debate.
the pg that this eliquid of 100mg/ml is being mixed with is propelyne glycol. the vg is vegetable glycerin. To the best of my understanding the
suppliers of the liquid i'm refering to purchase pure liquid nicotine at 990mg/ml and dilute it down with the pg/ vg base to 100mg/ml to sell to do it
yourselfers who do not have access to a lab. I am still curious if the nicotine could truely absorb into human skin and reach the blood brain barier
if a person was prolonged to dermal contact with it. I'm also curious if it could potentially cause addiction this way if a person were exposed to it
consistantly.
As far as the dead horse i dont think i'm able to understand that since i've looked this topic up all over the web before posting my questions
and only found it on ecig pages and it was blanket statements much like... if u spill one drop of the 100mg/ml on your skin u will die which i can
assure you you will not die because I have spilled that and more on my skin. Just wiped it off and washed my hands good. Still typing. Looking for
science answers. Thanks.
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Adas
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Propylene glycol may make the absorption faster. It has nothing to do with crossing the BBB. And it may cause addiction if you have genetic
preferences for it. Deadly dose of nicotine is around 0.5-1mg/kg.
Rest In Pieces!
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erlybrd
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would there be a way to determine how much of the nicotine were actually absorbed? Like if .5ml of the 100mg/ml were on the skin at night. Then again
tommorow night. then say every night for a month. THis person would be absorbing 50mg dermally or would some be lost in the atmosphere since it was
spillage and had no bandaid or other device other than clothing to protect it. if this person weighed 200lbs... i am not sure how many kg that is but
would they get the same high as a smoker would get this way? And if this is the case what would prevent kids from figuring out this way of abusing
nicotine?
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White Yeti
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Quote: Originally posted by Prometheus23  | | ...blanket statements like that are just bad science and I've grown really tired of seeing things like that which are based off nothing but more bad
science and/or people's personal issues. |
The difficulty with assessing "addictiveness" stems from many different factors, some societal, some physical and some psychological. This makes the
gathering of data a difficult and somewhat subjective task. Psychologists run into the same problem--heck the entire discipline of psychology is
grounded on anecdotal evidence. This does not make the discipline of psychology a "fringe" or "bad science".
Similarly, you cannot deny the fact that countless surveys were compiled on the relative addictive potential of nicotine as compared
to heroin, cocaine and alcohol. These studies show that nicotine is up there above cocaine and on the same level as diacetylmorphine. Here's the
result of one isolated survey:
"When heavily dependent users of cocaine are asked to compare the urge to take cocaine with the urge to smoke cigarettes, about 45 percent say the
urge to smoke is as strong or stronger than that for cocaine.
Among heroin' addicts, about 3 percent rank the urge to smoke as equal to or stronger than the urge to take heroin. Among those addicted to alcohol,
about 50 percent say the urge to smoke is at least as strong as the urge to drink."
Also, addictiveness is measured by how many people relapse after having gone through proper rehabilitation. Overwhelmingly, tobacco users display the
highest relapse rate of any drug. Whether this is a result of the sheer availability of tobacco, or of genuine physical and psychological
reward/dependence pathways is debatable.
I agree on one point, coffee is addicting, but it's not worthy of all the acclaim it all too often receives. Withdrawal from caffeine consists of
headaches and fatigue, but this nothing compared to the hell that nicotine and diacetylmorphine addicts go though when attempting to quit.
"Ja, Kalzium, das ist alles!" -Otto Loewi
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erlybrd
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I do understand some of the psychology that you are talking about as far as behavior and i'm in the group "nicotine addict" for sure so I understand
it's effects also. What i'm curious about is if it can even absorb into human skin while it's diluted in a pg or vg or combination of the two base and
if so if it can effect the reward pathways as cigarette inhalation would to create an addiction. I have read that the patch is not considered
addictive because it's a much slower release of nicotine but with the large amounts per ml available to the general public now whats to stop someone
from making thier own? And if they did are they creating a potential addiction. Obviously the patch isnt addicitve to me, i'm already addicted so i
dont know if i can become "more" addictive. I guess i'm looking for physical dependence mainly as i dont see someone being as psychologically
dependant on a patch as they are a cigarette. I'm definitely not belittling nicotines addictive power in the form of cigarettes especially since i
didnt like my first one yet here i am 20 years later still smoking but the times i have been unable to get them as miserable as it was i doubt i would
have robbed my mother or killed someone in an alley just to get one like other drug needs have driven people to do.
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Prometheus23
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White Yeti, I don't understand why you say this survey ranks nicotine's relative addictive potential as above cocaine and equal to heroin. In your
source 45% of cocaine users ranked the urge to smoke as greater than or equal to the urge to use cocaine. That means that those people don't consider
nicotine to be "above cocaine", that means they consider cocaine more addictive than nicotine. And your same source says that only 3% of heroin
addicts considered the urge to smoke as being greater than or equal to the urge to use heroin. This is far from being "on the same level as
diacetylmorphine".
I'm not trying to start a back and forth game of one-upping each other, truly. I'm just wondering why you chose that source to support what you said
in your post because it seems to state the obvious.
As for the original poster, erlybrd, I have a question for you. Where did you see these terms "pg base" and "vg base"? I get the impression that they
are established shorthand phrases used in some other area of amateur drug/chemistry discussion that you picked up from others. If I'm wrong then
nevermind, I was just curious.
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erlybrd
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PG and VG
No denying i am very amature with anything above high school chemistry.
PG or Vg are what the eliquid comes diluted in. pg being propylene glycol and vg being vegetable glycerine. Here is a link that shows one source
where it can be purchased.
http://www.xtremevaping.com/Xtreme-Nicotine-Liquid-100MG_p_1...
since the nic is diluted in this pg, vg, or 50/50pg/vg mix would that effect it's ability to absorb into human skin and would it effect the rate at
which it absorbed?
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erlybrd
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Where i'm running into issues is I cannot find anything online factual concerning the permiability of vg (vegetable glycerine) or pg (propylene
glycol) or if the 2 mixed together to be the base has an effect. One site says pg will absorb quickly into human skin. Another site says pg will not
absorb but will rather sit on the skin until it eventually evaporates. Same with vg in many of the do it yourself soap making sites. Is there and im
sure that there must be any confirmed knowledge as to whether or not vg or pg will diffuse into human skin all the way to the dermal layer. If so how
would that effect the nicotine that was dilluted in it?
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SM2
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How does one arrive at the "most addictive". Just because one sees millions across the world smoking nicotine laden cigarettes, it must be one of the
most addictive, based purely on usage prevalence.
If I may use my intuitive abilities, and venture a guess. The most addictive substance would consist of a mixture of chemicals. I'm thinking of the
prodine type of meperidine deravitive narcotics, combined with heroin and cocaine, and combined with MDA,MDMA, and perhaps a small amount of an
amphetamine and barbiturate. Finally, a sub theraputic dose of phencyclidine (1-2mg, optional). All the components would need to be time released to
yield optimal results. Of course, dosage for each component would be rather low, due to the multi-component nature of this coctail Experimentation
with all different types of compounds, and remember I react to certain drugs in a totally different way than the majority of people. So that is one
huge factor there alone.
But my intuition is that it is this approach, having acces to everything, and finding the correct dosages and the correct mixture, be it 5-10-or even
25 components. That is how you might find the most addictive. I mean, heroin alone banged is insanely more addictive than nicotine. Nicotine is
just not addictive. Stop smoking for 2-3 days, and you are free of any addiction you may have thought you had.
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Yo-Yo
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Both pg and vg do increase absorbtion of most drugs. However, nicotine is absorbed so avidly, that they might slow it down a bit. In Nicotine
patches, the nicotine is formulated as slow release formula. A lab accident that is often used as a coutionary tale: a male student faited during a
lab exersice, was sent to hospital and stript of his clothes, and put to bed. He woke up after 20 minutes. After an hour he felt fine. He got out of
bed put on his clothes and promptly fainted again. Turned out he spillt nicotine on his pants, and so gave him self noicotine poisoning when he put
them on.
I took a PhD in neuropharmacology and all I got was this bloody t-shirt.
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erlybrd
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ok
So based on that if 1 ml spilled on the skin and didnt wash off eventually all of it would be absorbed by the skin. I"m guessing since the rate is
slowed even at 100mg per ml 1 ml of liquid would not be fatal. With that slower rate is there any risk at all for dependence from a non user even with
habitual exposure?
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Yo-Yo
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I think if you got that on your skin and didnt clean up, it would be somewhere between extreamly unpleasent and death.
I took a PhD in neuropharmacology and all I got was this bloody t-shirt.
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