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Author: Subject: Complex Picrate Salts
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[*] posted on 3-3-2013 at 16:24
Complex Picrate Salts


I heard about Tetraamine Copper Picrate on the exotic primarys forum, but nothing on how to make it, anyone have a procedure? I also think Hydrazine Picrate and Tetraamine Hydrazine Picrate would be cool. I can make Hydrazine Sulfate and Picric Acid for this, I don't have any Pure Hydrazine and frankly I don't want to deal with it.



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a nitrogen rich explosive
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[*] posted on 3-4-2016 at 09:20


Tetramine Copper Picrate. May I suggest this:

CuC6H3N3O7+4NH3(aq)=(Cu(NH3)4)C6H3N3O7
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[*] posted on 3-4-2016 at 11:06


Calcium Picrate and Hydrazine Sulfate?
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[*] posted on 3-4-2016 at 14:01


Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  
Tetramine Copper Picrate. May I suggest this:

CuC6H3N3O7+4NH3(aq)=(Cu(NH3)4)C6H3N3O7

I would assume that would be a Complex rather than a straight and simple compound.

Then again, i know nothing about it, at all.
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[*] posted on 3-4-2016 at 14:05


CaC6H3N3O7+N2H5(HSO4)+NH3=(N2H5(NH3)4)C6H3N3O7+CaSO4+H (I think)
This would give tetramine hydrazine picrate. I haven't done any oxygen balancing yet, though it looks pretty decent. However, it is probably more than dangerously touchy. If you are really lucky, water will cause collossal explosive decomposition...
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[*] posted on 3-4-2016 at 14:33


For fuck's sake this compound is weird.
Synthesis route:
1) Calcium Picrate was dissolved in distilled water until a saturated solution was reached.
2) A saturated solution of hydrazine sulphate was added dropwise, and the mixture was stirred.
3)The mixture was left, and calcium sulphate fell to the bottom.
4) The remaining solution is mostly hydrazine picrate, with a negligible amount of calcium sulphate.
5) An excess of household ammonia was cooled to just above freezing, as well as the hydrazine picrate solution.
6) The ammonia was added to the picrate solution.
7) A crop of white crystals fell out of the solution.
8) They were immediately removed from the water and vacuum filtered to prevent decomposition.
TAHZP ( tetramine hydrazine picrate) is:
Insensitive to friction
Reasonably shock sensitive
Highly flame sensitive.
From preliminary tests, VoD looks around 7km/s. It is, however, unbelievably brisant: a 0.5 gram charge against a 1/4 inch plate unconfined seems to rip it to pieces.
Is this actually TAZHP?

N


[Edited on 3-4-2016 by a nitrogen rich explosive]
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[*] posted on 3-4-2016 at 15:40


How would the hydrazinium ion form a tetraammine complex? (Yes, this is the spelling you want.) I don't see how it's possible.



As below, so above.
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[*] posted on 4-4-2016 at 09:42


I don't see why it's impossible - provided the hydrazine is not acting as a ligand. However, it is possible that the tetrammine complex has not been formed, and that the complex is only hydrazine picrate, as the (might be) TAHZP does not have the properties I would expect...

N
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[*] posted on 4-4-2016 at 10:41


Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  
I don't see why it's impossible - provided the hydrazine is not acting as a ligand. However, it is possible that the tetrammine complex has not been formed, and that the complex is only hydrazine picrate, as the (might be) TAHZP does not have the properties I would expect...

N


You take hydrazine picrate, add ammonia to it, and get a precipitate. How is that supposed to be a tetrammine complex? Hydrazine is not a transition metal, and is not going to be coordinated by ammonia.




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Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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a nitrogen rich explosive
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[*] posted on 4-4-2016 at 11:06


Thinking about it, it wouldn't... Anyway, hydrazine picrate is very strange...
If you wanted to make tetrammine copper picrate, may I suggest this:
1) Form a saturated solution of copper sulphate
2) Add an excess of weak ammonia and cool immediately to just greater than freezing
3) Slowly add calcium picrate

[Edited on 4-4-2016 by a nitrogen rich explosive]
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[*] posted on 5-4-2016 at 19:55


Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  
For fuck's sake this compound is weird.
Synthesis route:
1) Calcium Picrate was dissolved in distilled water until a saturated solution was reached.
2) A saturated solution of hydrazine sulphate was added dropwise, and the mixture was stirred.
3)The mixture was left, and calcium sulphate fell to the bottom.
4) The remaining solution is mostly hydrazine picrate, with a negligible amount of calcium sulphate.
5) An excess of household ammonia was cooled to just above freezing, as well as the hydrazine picrate solution.
6) The ammonia was added to the picrate solution.
7) A crop of white crystals fell out of the solution.

Picric acid is a powerful dye and likewise are its salts intensely colored compounds. Whatever white material would be precipitated from a reaction system containing picric acid or a picrate is extremely unlikely to be any compound of picric acid.

Quote:

8) They were immediately removed from the water and vacuum filtered to prevent decomposition.
TAHZP ( tetramine hydrazine picrate) is:
Insensitive to friction
Reasonably shock sensitive
Highly flame sensitive.
From preliminary tests, VoD looks around 7km/s. It is, however, unbelievably brisant: a 0.5 gram charge against a 1/4 inch plate unconfined seems to rip it to pieces.
Is this actually TAZHP?

N


Please provide detailed information describing the synthesis and photographs of the isolated material and tests. So far as I know there are no ammonia complexes of hydrazine salts. To my knowledge ammonia and hydrazine do not react with each other.

There are ammonia complexes of metallic salts, and there are also "substituted ammonia" amine complexes of metallic salts, and similar hydrazine complexes of metallic salts.
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[*] posted on 6-4-2016 at 07:17


Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  
CaC6H3N3O7+N2H5(HSO4)+NH3=(N2H5(NH3)4)C6H3N3O7+CaSO4+H (I think)
This would give tetramine hydrazine picrate. I haven't done any oxygen balancing yet, though it looks pretty decent. However, it is probably more than dangerously touchy. If you are really lucky, water will cause collossal explosive decomposition...

I suspect "A nitrogen rich explosive" to be the former user "Octanitrocubane"...

This aside...even without "oxygen balancing" this doesn't look decent at all!

1°) Picrate is (-)O-C6H2(NO2)3 or C6H2N3O7(-)

2°) Calcium is bivalent and so Ca(2+) needs 2 picrates anions to be neutral --> Ca(C6H2N3O7)2

3°) As explained by others, you usually need transition metals to be able to stick amino ligands to the metalic cation.

4°) If you set ammonia in contact with hydrazinium picrate, you will simply make a mix of hydrazine, ammonia, ammonium picrate and hydrazinium picrate.
Ammonia is stronger base (a little more) than hydrazine and so it tends to displace it from its salts; but ammonia is much more volatile than hydrazine ... so if the system is open, it will release faster NH3 than N2H4 and you will end up with a majority of the initial product and a minority of ammonium picrate.

5°) Hydrazinium picrate is not touchy nor even sensitive.
It is very resistant to heat and rather sublimate in a yellow-brown cloud when heated by direct flame.
You can make it very easily when mixing hydrazinium hydrate (hydrazinium hydroxyde or 80% hydrazine solution) with ethanol and allowing it to react with saturated picric acid in ethanol...you get immediate precipitation.
Ammonium picrate is about as insensitive!

6°) Water will not make any of those decompose or explode!

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  
For fuck's sake this compound is weird.
Synthesis route:
1) Calcium Picrate was dissolved in distilled water until a saturated solution was reached.
2) A saturated solution of hydrazine sulphate was added dropwise, and the mixture was stirred.
3)The mixture was left, and calcium sulphate fell to the bottom.
4) The remaining solution is mostly hydrazine picrate, with a negligible amount of calcium sulphate.
5) An excess of household ammonia was cooled to just above freezing, as well as the hydrazine picrate solution.
6) The ammonia was added to the picrate solution.
7) A crop of white crystals fell out of the solution.
8) They were immediately removed from the water and vacuum filtered to prevent decomposition.
TAHZP ( tetramine hydrazine picrate) is:
Insensitive to friction
Reasonably shock sensitive
Highly flame sensitive.
From preliminary tests, VoD looks around 7km/s. It is, however, unbelievably brisant: a 0.5 gram charge against a 1/4 inch plate unconfined seems to rip it to pieces.
Is this actually TAZHP?


7°) Hydrazinium and ammonium picrate are very colorfull and yellow; so does calcium picrate.

8°) CaSO4 is not as unsoluble as you think...saturated solution can hold like 20000 mg/L SO4(2-) (that is about 28g CaSO4)!
CaSO4 precipitates white and hydrated (gypsum or plaster of Paris). Hydrazinium hydrogenosulfate is not very soluble into water eather...
--> Which is the more soluble, what are their Ks (solubility constants)?
Lowering the temperature of the solutions will result in crashing out of any crystals (CaSO4, NHS, Ca(Picr)2, NH4Picr, N2H5Picr, ...)

9°) VOD can't look arround 7km/s except in very large quantity owing to the unsensitivity of AP or HP.

10°) Unconfined, nor confined, 0.5g charge will NEVER schred 1/4 inch steel plate into pieces.

From what I read from you:
You must be a beautiful liar, a bad joker or a day-dreamer telling tales and believing in it (--> a mythomaniac).

[Edited on 6-4-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 6-4-2016 at 08:14


If there was no intelligent response it was my next thought to ask an administrator to delete the user account and all posts for the absence of honesty about posting such blatantly false and misleading, invented fictitious information regarding a "reported" synthesis and "tests" which as described pretty much violates a trivial thing like the laws of physics. A certain decorum should be preserved and such asinine posts don't quite pass the test of credulity or seriousness to reside in the SM energetic materials section.
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[*] posted on 6-4-2016 at 13:49


You pass my credulity and seriousness test for being an utter twat.
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[*] posted on 6-4-2016 at 17:17


You are just another smartass youngster making a serious topic discussion area your little kiddie sandbox to play games with grownups who know a few things more than you. The level of seriousness and honesty with which you approach the subject of experimentation with energetic materials is your very own Darwin Award waiting with your name on it, because the approach you are taking if you actually are experimenting with energetic materials will assuredly get you killed.
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a nitrogen rich explosive
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[*] posted on 8-4-2016 at 01:00


So I am taking it as the fact that I can't be banned for this (your insult-flinging gives me that idea...)
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[*] posted on 8-4-2016 at 05:43


Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  
So I am taking it as the fact that I can't be banned for this (your insult-flinging gives me that idea...)

Don't push your chance too far before a moderator gets attracted by your behaviour or involved in your treads/comments.

Maybe ask all your questions and hypothesis into the "Beginning section"...there you will have more tolerance, comprehensive answers and less risk of being banned (not only your account but also your IP adress) ... but don't imagine that you will get less scientific criticism to your ideas and writtings.

So maybe take the criticism to improve your knowledge and to be more relevant as a seacher/researcher thus as positive criticism...every stone you fall onto will learn you something along your way.




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

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[*] posted on 8-4-2016 at 06:42


Let's check that THX compliant system frequency response and see if there is possible a painless, seamless transition to a swimming with the fishes audio environment, if that is what it takes to properly welcome another wise guy to the island :D Man ...some kiddies "wise guy" attitude is dumb as a rock, like a regular boat anchor, huh :D what to do...what to do...this one is so really smart ...maybe better add an extra concrete block to the feet there to compensate for the buoyant and bubbly personality :P It is so embarrassing when an inadequately weighted floater washes up on the beach, does nothing for those romantic sunset walks when some screaming lady discovers the crabs having a wise guy buffet. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIwJgjs2OKo

<object width=640 height=480><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nIwJgjs2OKo?version=3&autoplay=0&showinfo=1&modestbranding=1&controls=1&theme=dark&vq=hd720&am p;hl=en_US&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nIwJgjs2OKo?version=3&autoplay=0&showinfo=1&modestbranding=1&controls=1&theme=dark&vq=hd720& hl=en_US&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width=640 height=480 allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzg8gJ_dOzI

<object width=640 height=480><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uzg8gJ_dOzI?version=3&autoplay=0&showinfo=1&modestbranding=1&controls=1&theme=dark&vq=hd720&am p;hl=en_US&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uzg8gJ_dOzI?version=3&autoplay=0&showinfo=1&modestbranding=1&controls=1&theme=dark&vq=hd720& hl=en_US&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width=640 height=480 allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

[Edited on 4/8/2016 by Rosco Bodine]
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a nitrogen rich explosive
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[*] posted on 8-4-2016 at 07:16



'Don't push your chance too far before a moderator gets attracted by your behaviour or involved in your treads/comments.

Maybe ask all your questions and hypothesis into the "Beginning section"...there you will have more tolerance, comprehensive answers and less risk of being banned (not only your account but also your IP adress) ... but don't imagine that you will get less scientific criticism to your ideas and writtings.

So maybe take the criticism to improve your knowledge and to be more relevant as a seacher/researcher thus as positive criticism...every stone you fall onto will learn you something along your way.'

That's fine... I will hang around elsewhere, and will post here when I have some solid research. Thanks for the help.
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[*] posted on 8-4-2016 at 07:24


Wise choice ......and pardon my dark humor, I am a cantankerous old man having outlived too many friends

Graduate students are among the extensive list of "the departed", casualties for not taking energetic materials experiments with due seriousness......it is an area of research that is the proverbial boneyard, unforgiving of a too casual approach to what seriously is a minefield that can maim and kill even the careful
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[*] posted on 8-4-2016 at 08:49


It's fine.

In 'Life after Detonation' a guy with a permits from the Feds was dipping matches in ETN. He blew his hand off, embedding his ring finger in the ceiling.

I do need to be careful, as I don't want to lose a limb or a life.
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